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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Given the plethora of articles in mainstream locations concerning the declining rate of circumcision in America I thought that it would be appropriate to write concerning this happy fact and the responses made to it.

A common response has been that it's all down to immigration, those Hispanics are moving in and bringing their unmodified penises along with them and that's the cause of the shift. This was alluded to in MSNBC's coverage, which was on their website headlined with "Circumcision's decline pinned on immigration".

Now to be fair there is evidence to suggest that this may well be the case, the rate has fallen lowest of all states studied in California (21%), a state which has also experienced wide-scale immigration from uncut Mexico. But a fairly basic tenant of rational thought is not to presume causation and to be wary of attributing shifts to factors chosen on an intuitive rather than factually supported basis. California is also one of the most liberal states within America and this combined with increased knowledge about the exact nature of the procedure (via the internet) than has ever been accessed before could feasibly be another cause for the drop.

But I wish to disregard that point for the time being since I feel that even if accepted the argument reveals a trinity of pertinent points about circumcision advocates that start of bizarre and become pitifully implausible. I shall also ignore, for the moment, those advocates who claim that the rate is as high as ever, if not higher, since despite the efforts they have gone to (and some have tried immensely hard: I recall one even claimed that a study showing that "More American boys are being circumcised" refuted intactivist claims, which is rather akin to saying that there is any significance in the fact that more Americans voted for George Bush in 2000 than George Washington in 1789 besides the fact that there were a lot more voters alive in the former than the latter) since the recently released study has conclusively proven them to be incorrect.

I doubt that that shall deter them but it gives me grounds to disregard them.

So let us return to the immigration case-makers, whose argument has few variants or diversity and tends to run roughly as follows: "Working class Mexicans do not circumcise. Many working class Mexicans have moved to America and thus the rates have declined in response. White Americans are still circumcising as much as ever. Therefore the claim that America's rate is declining is untrue."

Now there are three unworded and unpalatable assumptions that you need to swallow to accept this argument, none of which stand up to even a sceptical glance when seen as they are:

1. Only White Cock Counts

This is effectively what their argument amounts to; in claiming that we should only pay attention to the high white rates (I shall ignore the issue of whether they really are so high, since if you read the studies for yourself the answer to that is fairly obvious) and that the genitals of any other race should be disregarded this argument depends upon the superior importance of the white prepuce over all others. Caus-skin supremacy, if you will.

Now I find it far more likely that this is simply a measure taken to evade admitting that they are wrong than the advocates who make this argument are all implicit racists but the fact that they only seem to consider worthy of attention seems at very least to hint at some level of personal preference.

2. Immigrants Are Not Americans

Sorry guys, I know that you live here and have grown roots here and love "Your" country and all but unlike...Well, just about every other single American ever (Hell, even "Native Americans" travelled from overseas at one point!) you can't be considered one of the gang. Why? Oh, well, y'see your genitals weren't modified without your consent so...

What do you mean "The Irish"?

This argument seems to hint at some fairly extreme right-wing tinge within the advocates who make it, either that or they are once again just trying to back-flip their way over the facts and ending up on the floor. If they actually are being earnest about it though the use of this argument means that these advocates feel that recent Hispanic immigrants ought not to be considered Americans at all and should not be included within counts of American rates as they are classed as the other.

Now why exactly? Well I've never actually managed to extract any real reasoning for this one out of them but I can tell you for certain that the notion that Hispanics should not be considered American unsettles me.

Is it due to their foreskin or all of it?

3. Races Never Mix

When your racial views are more detached from reality than those of your average white supremacist you ought to take that as a hint to re-consider.

Races mix, blend and fuse, it happens, many people are unaware that immigrants from Ireland and Eastern Europe were previously considered to be of a different race to the Americans but this is no longer true thanks to characteristics being mixed through integration and now all are just considered "White". Indeed The Economist already classifies Hispanics that way too.

This is a pretty much inevitable consequence of an immigrant population being there and in this context it is likely that with popular arguments such as "Looks like daddy" only half as likely to result in circumcisions under such circumstances and the whole "Hygienic" thing easily dismissed by the fact that even the women will have relatives who are not cut. Intact is the cultural default for many American families now and to imagine that that is not going to have any influence upon the rate of those where it is not is implausible.

Will there be a reverse effect? Well probably but the more foreskin you have in this debate the less appealing its removal becomes, as you can tell by the fact that the only way circumcision reached such popularity amongst parents was after decades of hospitals performing them as default and without even parental consent.

In expecting the growth of the Hispanic population to have no impact upon the "White" one the advocates are seeing matters in a highly restricted fashion.

Whether this is because it suits them or they actually believe that no inter-pro-creation will occur is beyond me.

It would seem that even the strongest of arguments against the obvious has gaping holes within its reasoning and repeatedly misses the point. The American circumcision rate is in decline and if immigration is the cause for that then if anything the advocates have a greater reason to panic.
 

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I don't get it.

Yes, Mexican immigrants are a huge chunk of the population that traditionally doesn't circ.

And yes, attitudes across the board are changing about circumcision, much due to places like this.

All the stuff about racism and George Bush seems *very* off-point.
 

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I firmly believe that there is an element of racism in circumcision.

Sicklist did a piece on immigrants and circumcision I remember from a while back...totally racist.

In addition, the common claim that "circumcised penises are cleaner" seems to be an American myth; almost as if those speaking it are saying "American penises are cleaner."

I there was a thread on this once long ago.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you Papai!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBecks View Post
I don't get it.

Yes, Mexican immigrants are a huge chunk of the population that traditionally doesn't circ.

And yes, attitudes across the board are changing about circumcision, much due to places like this.

All the stuff about racism and George Bush seems *very* off-point.
Racism is implicit within the arguments made by circumcision advocates.

The George Bush reference was solely meant as a means of comparison: Washington won by a far larger margin than Bush did but received far fewer votes. Saying that the latter fact means that Bush was more popular than Washington would be incorrect in much the same way that saying more circumcisions are happening in America than used to means that it is more popular.

There were more voters and are more babies.

Quote:
Sicklist did a piece on immigrants and circumcision I remember from a while back...totally racist.
Indeed they did, that was the first place where I encountered this argument actually. I have come across it at other stages in debates though.
 

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From a thread A&A just posted:

Quote:
"Last week DOHMH announced plans to encourage and offer free circumcisions to any man who wanted them with special emphasis on blacks, hispanics, and gays."
Of course, they will claim this is because those are "high risk" groups
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
From a thread A&A just posted:

Of course, they will claim this is because those are "high risk" groups


Thankfully, as Papai pointed out, they re-considered!

I doubt that there would have been all that much interest anyway, really.
 

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Yeah, if I remember correctly, they held a public forum on it and many African Americans and members of the local gay community were pretty up in arms.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
Yeah, if I remember correctly, they held a public forum on it and many African Americans and members of the local gay community were pretty up in arms.
LOL, having read a few gay e-zines articles on the topic of foreskin I can understand why that would be.

I imagine that that leaves quite a dent in the "It's ugly and smelly!" argument, huh?
 

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My unscientific study, based upon knowing and working with dozens of immigrants working in science at the university is that while some become "Americanized" in many ways, non-religious circumcision is usually NOT something that they ever come around to supporting even if they marry "native" Americans. It seems to be a tough idea for most people to swallow if they are not used to it. Thus, if immigration is partially responsible for the decline in circumcision rates, I think enlightenment will spread from immigrants outward to "natives" rather than the reverse happening. Thus, the rate will keep declining.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by buckeyedoc View Post
My unscientific study, based upon knowing and working with dozens of immigrants working in science at the university is that while some become "Americanized" in many ways, non-religious circumcision is usually NOT something that they ever come around to supporting even if they marry "native" Americans.
Unfortunately, that hasn't been my experience. I was born and raised in Miami and pretty much the standard - IME - has been that once a family assimilates enough to give their children "American" names, they start cutting because they buy the whole "it's cleaner" argument. In fact, a friend of mine who is Colombian - and intact - recently had his newborn son cut because he said he was teased so much growing up.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
Unfortunately, that hasn't been my experience. I was born and raised in Miami and pretty much the standard - IME - has been that once a family assimilates enough to give their children "American" names, they start cutting because they buy the whole "it's cleaner" argument. In fact, a friend of mine who is Colombian - and intact - recently had his newborn son cut because he said he was teased so much growing up.
Coward. And yet that teasing was never enough to compel himself to get cut.
:
 

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I read on someones site (they asked for a critique a few months back) a quote from some late 19th or early 20th century Dr saying circ should been offered to black men to prevent them from raping white women. Sounded pretty racist to me.
 

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my little brother is 15 he is half Colombian and is circumcised. i was only 13 when he was born and new nothing about circumcision or i would have tried to educate my father about how bad it is. he was born here in California and i don't know if his mom and our dad talked about it or anything i don't know how common it was here 15 years ago. i am very sad and angry that it happened to him. i once mentioned if i ever have a son he won't be circumcised and my little brother said he is the only boy in his school who is. he sounded sort of proud of it and i didn't feel comfortable talking about ow bad i feel it is to do to a child partly because his mom and our dad where in the room and it was really awkward. i guess i don't have any point in posting this but the article reminded me how upsetting it is that he was hurt like that when he was a baby. pregnancy hormones have made me feel much stronger about the topic of circumcision and i have been anti for a really long time but never felt so strong about it before the possibility of having a son.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by whateverdidiwants View Post
Unfortunately, that hasn't been my experience. I was born and raised in Miami and pretty much the standard - IME - has been that once a family assimilates enough to give their children "American" names, they start cutting because they buy the whole "it's cleaner" argument. In fact, a friend of mine who is Colombian - and intact - recently had his newborn son cut because he said he was teased so much growing up.
I have probably a unique experience as a Puerto Rican woman raised in CA. My father (born on a military base in San Juan, PR. of Puerto Rican parents -- my grandfather served in the navy during WWII) was circ'ed and I assume (I don't have close family ties) that most of my uncles on mom's side and male cousins on both sides were. I don't believe my grandfathers were, unless it was done later in life (both were born on the island in rural areas.) My family is based in NY, and it seems that once my grandparents started to "americanize" their children, all kinds of values came along with it. (The biggest one I have issue with was no Spanish was to be spoken at home so their children would learn only English and my grandparents could learn some rudimentary English from my parents. So, my parents, knowing nothing else, carried that on. While they have some basic Spanish language skills, none were passed on to my brother or myself.
: )

Now my mother decided and firmly told my father that under no circumstances would my younger brother be circ'ed (we're about 12 years apart and she was pushing for a natural birth since she was given Twilight with me.) My father had no strong feelings on the matter, so my brother stayed intact. Her stance pushed me to keep our son intact despite dh's insistence that it was necessary. To this day, dh quietly laments that ds wasn't circ'ed and (what seems to me) almost tries wish some ill on his intact penis. (BTW, dh is half Mexican, half a mix of European decent.) I know ds'll be fine, since my brother has never had any problems with being intact and I read what information I can find. (Personally, I think dh didn't want the circ, but can't admit to it based on what was done to him.)

To continue to advocate for ds, we have a ped who is anti-circ (thank you, Dr. Fleiss and his staff!
), and I try to be aware of potential problems that might arise. That way I won't be worried and I can calmly tell dh how that is a normal reaction, since he wouldn't know either. Also, it's just good to know in case (gods forbid!) there were a real problem that would need treatment. However, I look at that happening the same way I look at just about any other illness that could affect my children. It's there, but chances are it won't affect us.
 

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Well, there are people here in this country with an "agenda" who are trying to spin the lowering circ rates as another piece of propoganda to facilitate more support of tougher immigration laws.

Where I live, of all the people I know recently who've had babies only ONE had circ'd. The once who kept their boys whole were mainly white non-hispanic. One of them is married to man of hispanic heritage, BUT he himself was circ'd as a child as part of his "assimilation."

What has happened now, is that people have a window into the world. Through the internet, etc. People here in the US realize more than ever that they have to advocate for their own healthcare...so they research and take on a lot more of that responsibility. I look back at my mom's generation...people just did what doctors said without questioning it. It's obvious now, in the litigous USA where defensive medicine is practiced often to a patients detriment, that you need to question procedures and advocate for yourself and your family. So, people are researching circumcision now when they have babies. And, as we all know, when you go into researching with an open mind it is obvious that circumcusion is harmful, immoral and a basic human rights violation.

I think the education that people are getting is a large part of this. So, even though immigration has a role, I think that will only further escilate the cultural sense of "normalcy" with the intact penis. And, I do think, based on this that circ'd men in the upcoming generations will finally have to deal with a sense of "loss" because of what was done to them. Since many of their peers will have normal, fully functioning penises that they were denied at birth by their parents.

Please excuse any spelling errors, I'm caffenated.
 
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