[Mommiska]

Thought I should start another topic, rather than continuing to hijack the Dr. Spock thread...

I've always been vaguely anti-circumcision, but it's never really affected me, because my first two children are girls. But I now have a 1 month old son, and it just makes me want to cry when I think of little boys being circumcised.

As I said on the Dr. Spock thread, I have a friend who plans to circ her 3rd little boy. I'd love to share the Mothering article Last Minute linked to, but wonder how I can do it without being judgemental? She knows (from our last conversation) how I feel - I think she is genuinely envious of me, since I live in the UK, so I never had to deal with the circ/don't circ question (you just don't do it here, thankfully).

I have other friends, as well, who are planning more children - my suspicion is that they will all circ - so how and when would you bring it up with them? Start random conversations now? Wait until they are pregnant and bring it up? What do you do?

My dh agrees with me about circ, but is rolling his eyes, as this is going to be another one of 'crusades', I think.

:

What do you all do with close friends? I feel like I owe it to any unborn sons they might have to at least try...

 

[Linda in OZ]

Maybe you could just mention that you found some great reading, ( I haven't read the article you mentioned tho) and thought she might be interested in it.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

I think all of these assertions of people having no right to be judgmental is just political correctness gone amuck! I think it is the right and even the responsibility to be judgmental. It's the way we keep society in line. Judgment and responsibility is the way we avoid problems in our society and keep it running smoothly.

If someone does something that is not acepted by society and no one says or does anything about it, that offense is likely to continue because the person who is doing it is not held accountable and they should be held accountable if that action harms another member of society.

I think it is totally appropriate to judge a woman who drinks, smokes and does drugs while she is pregnant. She is harming another person, her unborn child. I have judged her and I think her character stinks! If no one registers their disapproval, she is likely to continue the destructive behavior to her child. In that regard, I think it is my responsibility to be judgmental and register my disapproval. It is for the benefit of the child and society.

If someone is doing something that is injurous only to themselves, I also make a judgment and that judgment is likely to be that they are really, really stupid. But in that case, I really have no responsibility to register my disapproval and in fact if I do, I'm probably being a busy body and a buttinsky. I probably don't have any right to intrude in their private affairs.

Circumcision harms a child and the man he will grow to be. You have every right to be judgmental and to speak up voicerferously. As a matter of fact, it is your responsibility to that child/man and to society.

End of rant!

Frank

 

[NotAMama]

Hi. I lurk, but I have never posted.

I am very anti-circ (so is my mom! I am not pregnant right now or even trying, but she said if she needs to, she will stay in the hospital the entire time I am there with her hands over my son's penis to make sure nothing "accidently" happens to him! What a good grandma!

)

My cousin is pregnant and doesn't know yet what she is having, but I know from previous conversations that her mother (my aunt) is pro-circ. Since my cousin is fairly young and tends to do what her mother says (even though she is married and living in her own place!) I wanted to catch her early.

I got my chance this past weekend. I basically just approached her and said I'd like to talk to her about circumcision. She looked confused for a moment and said she hadn't even thought about it. I told her that was fine, but it was somethign she would need to think about -- especially if she had a boy. I told her I had a notebook full of articles and studies and even threads from discussion boards (such as this one) that I'd like her to read with an open mind. I made sure she knew from the beginning I am VERY anti-circ. She agreed to look over the notebook . . . so I feel like I have done my part.

I guess my situation was a little easier than yours . . . she's my cousin so I can easily approach her about stuff and she knows I only have her/her child's best interest at heart. But I think a direct approach always works the best.

 

[Sarah]

I have never done/ said this, but in the way you framed your question this response comes to my mind. I wonder how it would go over.

"I know that there is a lot of cultural pressure for you to circumcise a son if you have one, you may feel that it is expected from your family, your peers, even your Doctor. You may be feeling overwhelmed that EVERYONE wants you to circumcse your child. You may not feel free to be honest with yourself in your research or your emotions towards circumcision because the pressure to do it seems to be overwhelmingly in favor of it.

I would like you to know that I am not in favor of it. I would like you to consider my feelings, (the feelings of a friend) if you are also going to consider the pressure of total strangers as you approach your decision making process. If you are willing to give weight to pressure to do it, it is only fair that I speak up and give a balance to that pressure to tell you NOT to do it. At first I thought it would be rude for me to pressure you, but now I understand that the only reason why sane rational and kind people would subject their children to this torture is because they do not posess the strength to stand up to the pressure they are under. Perhaps if I offer pressure which supports your maternal instincts rather than withold it in some twisted sense of propiety... maybe you will feel relief. Maybe you need friends to help you push back against that pressure- here I am. Many people are afraid to express their true feelings because they are afraid to offend, but they allow people to act on PRESUMPTIONS of what everyone wants them to do. I do not want you to hurt your son on MY behalf... I DON"T want to to cut his body. I will support you 100% if you chose to protect his gential integrity."

Love Sarah

 

[MelMel]

awesome! BE judgemental! I LOVE it!

myself and my husband lost our 9 month long battle with my sister and she violated her 3rd child (first son) It is soooooooooooooo horrible, but at least I know I did what I could...but it doesnt make me feel better, but its not MY feelings I am worried about, or HERS, but that poor baby....ugh.

and NotAMama, WELCOME! you are VERY welcome here!!!!! glad you de-lurked!

 

[Mommiska]

Thanks for your responses. Sarah - I really liked what you said about offering my friend positive pressure/support to follow her own instincts and NOT circumcise. I think something along those lines might very well be helpful.

Frank - I see what you are saying, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that circumcision is very wrong. However, being actively judgemental and making people feel badly/worse than they already do about decisions they can't un-make probably isn't going to help them make the right decision next time.

I guess I'm just looking for the kind of approach that is going to be most helpful in getting someone to change their mind, you know?

NotaMama - I think you are right, and that being direct is probably the best approach. I'll have to start putting together some articles, etc.

Does anyone know what kind of information is best at getting people to decide NOT to circ?

 

[somemama]

I hand people a copy of the book What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision and say, "This book was tremendously helpful to me when I was pregnant with my son."

(Nevermind that the book actually came out a month after my son was born.

)

 

[Sarah]

Carolyn- I would educate her on the FACT that the foreskin has a sexual function and errogenous value. Once that is understood this whole "decision" thing- becomes an ethical crisis... do I or do I not meddle PREMENANTLY with someone else's, my son's, sexual equipment? What right do I have to take 15 sq inches of someone elses sexual anatomy from them?

it is only by ignoring, not knowing or denying the sexual value that people can pretend that what they are doing is reasonable. If you make it clear that foreskin is not extra penis, not penis cover, not unevolved redundant penis, not flap, not numb bloodless nerveless dirt recepticle ... but is living masculine healthy normal errogenous sexual ORGAN... I mean, isn't the fact that you don't cut a man's sex organ a real no brainer? the only reason why people do this is they somehow convince themselves that the sex organ begins wherever the circumcisier stoped cutting- a totally arbitrary scar line.

Start slowly- the level of her ignorance may be more than you can fathom. Some women have never even seen an intact man, not even a picture, painting or sculpture of one... (That says a lot about the state of art education in America doesn't it?) Of course the images are out there if you are willing to see them, but they can't.

Love Sarah

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Carolyn:

In this issue, everyone has a different sensitivity button. While some may feel the civil/human rights issue is important, others will deny this right and completely pass it off. To others, the health myths are important but others don't believe them. some can't fathom putting their baby through any amount of unnecessary pain, others pass it off as no big deal, he won't remember it.

To get your message accross, you have to first find her buttons. Once you find the buttons, then you can start punching them. Punching the sexual damage button if she doesn't care or refuses to believe it will get you nowhere. As a matter of fact, punching that button is probably going to irritate her and she will probably cut you off.

You could start off with a simple and direct question. "Nobody circumcises here. Why is it done in America?" She will probably rattle off a bunch of answers and then you say "Which of those are your reasons?" or "Which of those are important to you?" Then you can start tackling the real issues for her and won't be sidelined with things that don't matter to her.

Frank

 

[Gitti]

Here are my two most favorite sites to print out and hand to expecting mothers:

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

and

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

After they have thoroughly absorbed that and can discuss it, I send them to www.cirp.org

Good Luck!

Gosh, something is wrong here. I do hope this doesn't get posted three or four times. I don't have a "submit reply" button, only "preview" and then it keeps disappearing...If it is posted numerous time, not my fault.....(?)...um, sorry!

 

[alissakae]

Thanks for starting this thread. My dh and I are planning a dinner with one of his co-workers. They are expecting their first baby and just learned that it is a boy. We really like this couple and want to be sure they know the facts about circ before their baby is born, so we've been discussing how to approach the topic at our get together. It has been very helpful to read everyone's suggestions.

 

[Xenogenesis]

Maybe you could slip her the article by DR. Paul Fleiss at an appropriate moment.

 

[Quirky]

Quote:

Originally posted by mamajulie I hand people a copy of the book What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision and say, "This book was tremendously helpful to me when I was pregnant with my son." (Nevermind that the book actually came out a month after my son was born. )

TOO funny! My ds was born in August 02, and this is exactly how I intend to present the book to my pregnant SIL who circed her first! (Although maybe I'll slide by with "This author was tremendously helpful to me when I was pregnant with my son," as I had read the Fleiss articles....

 

[mahogny]

Hi! This is my first post, so I'm a newbie. But I wanted to chime in on my experience with this area...

Even before I was pregnant, I've known I would never circ, should I have a boy. For me, it was just a no-brainer, much like bf-ing, etc.

However, when I did get pg and we found out that we were going to have a boy, MIL said to DH and me, "You're going to have him circumcised, right?" DH and I replied "no", and MIL responded, "Do it. He'll thank you later." (DH is obviously circ'ed, and has never thanked his mom.

)

Anywho, she took it as her one-woman mission to convince me of the benefits of circumcision. Here I was, a very pregnant woman, hormonal and emotional as all get out, and she starts sending me emails and IM's out of the blue about how we should have our son circ'ed. Her actions had me in tears on more than one occasion! I wasn't upset about her pro-circ views (I accepted that she and I just have different parenting philosophies) but I was crushed that she didn't trust her son and me enough to make an educated and researched decision on our own, and to let us parent our child in own way. She showed that she had no faith in us!

Not only was she sending me emails and IM's, but she also discussed our anti-circ decision with members of her family, who then IM'ed and emailled DH about the errors of our ways. It was just devastating to realize that these people had no confidence in us to do the best thing for our child.

As this was happening, I was telling my brother about all this. (He is very anti-circ.) I wasn't looking for anti-circ support, but just general "Gosh, I'm so sorry your MIL's a pill" support. However, I never out-and-out mentioned to my bro that we weren't going to circ - I had (erroneously) assumed that he knew me well enough to know that I would never even consider it. Well, it turns out that just as my MIL was on a one-woman mission, DB started a one-man mission to convince us NOT to circ! He started sending me IM's and emails, and when he finally realized that we never had any intention of circ'ing, he confessed that if I had gone the other way, he had a boatload of anti-circ brochures and articles already addressed to me that he was going to drop in the mail!

I was SOO hurt by that comment! My own BROTHER didn't think I was capable enough and smart enough and educated enough to research this and make up my own mind! MIL not trusting us is one thing, but my own brother not trusting me really hurt!

So, basically, the last 20 weeks of my pg (from when we found out it was a boy) were spent in tears whenever I thought about the circ issue. Dh and I never had any doubts about where we stood. We never waffled in our decision, not once. But the unwelcome onslaught of the opinions of those close to us was just too overwhelming to bear during an already emotional time.

I'm not posting this to discourage anyone from being activists for friends and relatives; I just want to point out one possible reaction.

Sarah

 

[alissakae]

Your story does point out that it's important to proceed gently when providing information to parents-to-be. Also, as expectant parents, to realize that people provide information because they have your best interests at heart.

My dh and I have major regrets that we DIDN'T bombard his brother and wife with information because they cut their son, and we had assumed that because his wife was Japanese they wouldn't do it (stupid us). We should have realized that our SIL does whatever the parents recommend without ever questioning or researching. So, proceed in a tactful way but do NOT hesitate to provide information so that parents can at least make an informed decision. Heaven knows they won't get the information from medical personnel.

 

[Mommiska]

Sarah -

Thanks for your insight...made me think! I feel very strongly about certain issues, and know I can come across too strongly - your story is a good warning to me.

The particular friend I'm thinking about has 2 circed boys, but hated doing it. Hates the idea of circ, but goes along because of her dh. She's done some reading, but I don't think a lot (she was surprised when I told her my intact dh and I don't need lubrication during sex, for example). And I think her main reason for not liking circumcision is the immediate pain it causes the baby.

Which is a good enough reason! But I don't think she knows all the other repercussions from a little boy losing his foreskin.

Do you have any suggestions (given your own experience) for how to approach her?

Thanks!

 

[mahogny]

Hi, Carolyn!

Well, all I can tell you is what I would have appreciated at the time.

I would have liked someone to just ASK me if I wanted information on circumcision! What was so difficult about the situation is that everyone just assumed that I'd want their opinions. Neither MIL nor my brother asked us if we wanted their input.

So if it were me, I'd ask your friend if she wants some anti-circ information and resources. If she says "yes", then by all means give her what you have, and be available to answer questions, talk about it, etc. But if she replies "no", then take her at her word.

Unsolicited advice is never welcome. Opinions should be asked for, not bestowed.

Just my .02!

Sarah

 

[Lisa P.]

In my experience, a lot of people just assume that circumcision is routine and don't even question it. So for those people, just letting them know there IS an alternative is very enlightening.

You can just say something general like," Isn't it interesting that the AAP has come out with a statement that circumcision is not medically necessary? There is a ton of info on the internet about the pros and cons of circumcision..." If this person is a thoughtful, responsible parent, she will do the research and hopefully reach the same conclusion that you have, that it is totally unecessary.

I really hate being lectured about my parenting decisions so this is the approach I take with my friends!

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Sarah:

You need to give your brother a huge hug and kiss. Obviously he cares very much about you and your son or he would have kept quiet and avoided a controversy.

Your MIL also cares and worries that all of the bad things she has heard about will happen to your son and her grandson. While she is misguided and not educated on current research, her careing and concern is obvious.

Both of these people are very much in your court and only want what is best for you and your son. They could have both kept quiet and avoided any hard feelings but the have taken a chance for what they think is for your and your son's benefit. Embrace both of them as the very special people they are.

Frank