[crunchymomma]

I wasn't sure whether this should be in parenting or gd, so I apologize if I put this in the wrong place.

My husband is very loving. He tries his hardest to be the best dad he can be. He is very willing to learn new parenting ideas and is open to pretty much anything I come to him with. We're both basically learning this together, but I'm the one to do the reading/research and then I share it with him and we decide together what would be the best for our family. We decided a long time ago that we are partners and should try to always remain a united front before our daughter.

However, he isn't terribly GD by nature. He is often short-tempered, quick to issue ultimatums, and frequently raises his voice unnecessarily (IMO). Sometimes he does things that I *really* don't agree with and I'm not sure when the best time would be to say something. When it's something minor, I just wait until after dd is in bed and we can discuss it. But if it's something bigger, I don't know if the best thing is to wait and let him potentially cause harm, or speak up at the time and possibly undermind him.

For example, we're in the process of helping dd learn to use the toilet. She's pretty good at peeing in the potty, but can't seem to get the pooping in the potty down pat. It's really frustrating us (btw, I'm totally open to suggestions here

). Today we were out and dd pooped in her pants not more than 2 minutes after we asked her if she needed to go. DH got really frustrated and spoke to her about it. IMO, he was shaming her - telling her she was acting like a baby, etc. It was awful.

WWYD? When is the best time to discuss parenting in a situation like this?

 

[Luthien Arcamenel]

Ok, you siad WWYD?
This...

Quote:

Originally Posted by crunchymomma IMO, he was shaming her - telling her she was acting like a baby, etc. It was awful.

I pick her up from him and look him square in the face and say "She IS a baby!" *glare* "YOU'RE acting like an a**.".

But um, yeah I'm just like that.

Undermining sucks, but if after discussing this sort of thing away from her, he still continues, then you HAVE to step in. Shaming is unacceptable, period.

Oh and as far as toilet training, I am a fervent believer that two years is too young. Yes, some children learn well by now, but most do not. And to take an already difficult and confusing stage, and pile potty traing on top of it, well... why?

So she pees in the toilet. Excellent! Less diapers, AND you're hald way there! Whoo-hoo. Keep her in dipes, and wait patiently until she is ready for step two.

Also point out to your dear hubby that shaming her is going to cause her to cease using the toilet all-together. PLUS, he's setting her up for a highly disrespectful mate in the future. Is that who he wants for his sweet litle apple? Huh? Is it?!

yeah, I'm like that. Turn the shaming table...

 

[LynnS6]

What my husband does when I start to 'lose it' is say "That's enough!" or "Just don't say anything right now."

That stops me from going overboard, doesn't make us discuss the issue right then and there and gives us all a breather.

Alternatives would be "wait, stop and take some deep breaths." "I can see you're frustrated, but one of you has to behave like an adult" (the last one only works if you can say it with a smile).

As for the potty training -- our son learned to pee long before he learned to poop in the potty. I simply told him that he could just tell me when he needed to poop and we'd put a diaper on. He did, we did, problem solved. About a month later he was ready to do it in the potty. But it really is a separate thing.

 

[crunchymomma]

Thank you both for your suggestions. I really like the idea of using a phrase to tell him to cool it.

Dh and I have talked a lot about us a role models for dd. He gets it, perhaps we just need a refresher discussion.

BTW - dd is 33 months, and has been using the potty at daycare for about a year now. She told me a couple of weeks ago that she didn't want to wear diapers anymore, that she wanted to be a big girl and wear underpants (her friends at daycare don't wear diapers anymore).

 

[WuWei]

If she is regressing in her toileting independence, I believe there is a reason. Perhaps she has been told that she "isn't a big girl because she is in diapers" and desires to avoid that shaming from someone at daycare? Her desire to use underpants is represented as being related to daycare and the peers; however, her desire for underpants may not be related to her actual toileting ability. However, I am unclear if she was requesting the toilet to poop previously or not? Also, it is normal for children to regress in times of stress. I would talk to dh about posting here and share "what I found out" as a means of continuing the parenting partnership together: 'oh, they say that urinating independence comes before stool mastery, stress can cause regression, that we need to be neutral about accidents, that being angry over toileting causes less control, not more, etc.'

In the heat of the moment of shaming, which "acting like a baby" is imo, I would say 'Honey, that sounds like shaming.' Or 'Please stop and let her catch her breath, she seems pretty upset right now. Can we talk about this after everyone is settled please?' I would definitely talk with dh about my concerns related to my *observations* of dd's reaction to the shaming 'DD was so upset about the poopy underware. I know that she is trying hard to be like her friends. She wants to be "a big girl". I am concerned that shaming her could make her more upset and have less control. What do you think we could do to encourage her to be less stressed about these normal learning accidents?'

HTH, Pat

 

[naturegirl7]

I am basically the same situation! Except we have a very spirited and strong willed 14mo boy here.

There are times I don't approve, but it is minor enough that I will wait and talk to him later - or he will get very defensive and not hear a word I say. But in the moment if I need to diffuse a situation - "DH, you need a break? Why don't you let me help you out?"
HELP is the key word. Not take over - which sends teh undermining vibe and makes DH feel like he is doing something wrong. Also I try not to use "wrong" way and "right" way when I talk to DH (like I do with DS and other kids!) I suggest "alternatives" like "I have noticed that when I do this.....DS seems to really respond well"
Another phrase I use - and DH knows this is when he needs to walk away right then and there - "Why don't you go take a walk?" Basically telling him to get the heck out of my house and calm down - but nicely. LOL

Men are such babies that it has to be done nicely, but firmly - and in the same manner as you teach and redirect a child.

A few times, DH has made off comments that I feel are shaming - and I point blank will correct him in front of DS. "Daddy, that isn't very nice to say." or "Daddy, we don't name call, it isn't nice - remember?" It is a good opportunity to teach both of them that shaming/name calling is not nice and not tolerated. And DH takes it to heart more if I do it in front of DS - it brings it fully to his attention. Plus it gives DS a chance to see that even parents are human and make mistakes.

GL!

 

[SoggyGranolaMomma]

First off, I don't even start potty learning until the kids are 3 years old. It's been really easy and without tears for all of them. My son had a longer time getting the hang of it, but that's a boy for ya.

My husband is similar but he does want gentle discipline in our house.

I do my best not to disagree with him in front of the kids but we had a hard time with this last night about dinner.

The kids didn't want to eat their dinner looking forward to "movie night" with the family including popcorn, candy, and some yummy pies I picked up.

I told them if they didn't eat they could have popcorn and carrots during the movie but no candy.

He told them they would eat nothing and used many of the tactics that you guys told me are not nice to use.

I had to say stuff like, "what daddy means to say is that you can't have any junk food during the movie".

This morning, the whole thing seems dumb really. Who cares if they didn't eat one meal and decided candy and pie sounded better. It was a special treat, what's the big deal?

We don't have much time together without kids around but the next time we do I will bring it up again.

It does definately hinder my efforts when he bellows and blusters.

:

 

[littlehalo]

I have the same problem with DH. He was raised by parents who could be harsh and impatient and he doesn't know what else to do. I can see that as DS (he is 1 now) gets older this will become an even bigger problem.

 

[sphinx]

Crunchymomma, I don't envy you. I have been there too. Still am, though it's been improving. Be assured that your child can recognize and accept each parent's style and methods separately. So if you work on making a strong connection with your kids and being the best, most ideal parent you want to be, that alone will bolster deep trust and confidence so your kids are stronger when dealing with the less-than-ideal approach of your dh, who would not be able to change a lifetime of habits/feelings/ideas overnight even if he did believe wholeheartedly in GD and was trying his hardest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lúthien Arcamenel Undermining sucks, but if after discussing this sort of thing away from her, he still continues, then you HAVE to step in. Shaming is unacceptable, period.

I agree in principle here. But from experience, I will say this can knock out the foundations of a marriage if done on a consistent basis. It is equally disrespectful to constantly step in and tell dh how to do his job, even if he's doing it badly, and it doesn't teach a much better lesson to the child. A pp's suggestion of offering to help DH in stressful moments, or agreeing on some kind of code-word might be more effective.

There is no easy answer to this issue, it is really a fundamental area in which both parents need to share a common vision or at least be willing to make firm agreements and abide by them. Which we know is really hard to do, even with the best intentions. My dh does some shaming/blaming/mini-lectures and I just can't butt in every single time. When I do, he gets furious, unleashes a torrent on me, often I can't stay calm and we then begin fighting... and the child gets embroiled in this marital conflict on top of the initial discipline problem - ugly! This has been our bad cycle, and it makes us both worse parents and worse mates - not good models for our children in any way! DH really is making an effort, he wants to be a loving dad, but he has a lot of issues (we all do). So, for the moment I have to bite my lip, ignore his lesser evils and choose which issues are most important to me to preserve my children's dignity and discuss them - often - in a friendly way when we are alone and in good moods.

However I also make sure dd knows I am there to listen to and comfort her on her terms after she has been treated disrespectfully by her dad- and he is starting to see that she draws away from him and towards me when he acts unfriendly towards her or more or less any time she has an emotional situation. This has been the most effective impetus for him to change his ways, far more than anything I could ever do or say.

So -good luck to you. Just keep talking to your dh with sincerity and love, offering him things to read, and modeling the parenting you want to be standard in your family. Hopefully he'll catch up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lúthien Arcamenel Oh and as far as toilet training, I am a fervent believer that two years is too young.

Plenty of babes never have diapers or get out of them quite early (check the EC forum for more info) - my ds has been sitting on the potty since 6 months, pooping there exclusively since 10 months old, he's 22 months now and will definitely be out of night-diapers by the age of 2 (which we've kept on basically only beause *I'm* too lazy/sleepy to do the work involved with night-pottying - I think he's been ready for it for a few months). Every kid is different, but two years is definitely not too young for children to comprehend the most natural thing in the world. Two might be getting on the late end of things, actually, if you consider that the most sensitive time for them to learn is understood to be from 12-18 months.

Hope something in this was helpful.

 

[SoggyGranolaMomma]

The thing is, EC is still pretty controversial and hasn't necessarily crossed over to "normal" (if there is such a thing

) even among APers.

My 4 and soon my 5th have all done well with waiting. If you *started* this at 6 months, and are STILL doing it at 22 months, I don't see how that is really a good method, for me anyway.

By waiting until they are 3 years old, I take away the diapers one day, declare we are out and they can now go on the potty. With the 3 girls I had few accidents if any, no dealing with toting potties around in the back of my van, no potty seats at all in fact, just right to the big potty and that was it.

We never had "night" training. None of my girls have ever had accidents overnight and my son only has them because he needs help getting the undies down and sometimes doesn't make it.

I know it works for some people, but I am far FAR too lazy to start a process at 4 months old that won't complete entirely until they are 2, when I can just wait until they are 3 and have it done in a week.

I also understand that children potty learned before 2 can regress if a sibling or dramatic change in the family dynamic occurs.

None of us experienced that within our family. Developmentally, without "pavlov" type training, fighting with a 2 year old about potty learning could be unfair to them.

 

[sphinx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoggyGranolaMomma If you *started* this at 6 months, and are STILL doing it at 22 months, I don't see how that is really a good method, for me anyway.

Hmmm. I'm not "doing" anything. My ds has been diaper free all day for months now. I'm just not being active in getting diapers off him at night. I guess I don't have the same needs as you do to have it all finished at once. However, my dd did the same as yours at the age of 22 months, not having been EC'd.

EC is not pavlovian training. It's a form of communication between child and parents. All children can regress in their skills at any time. I have not had this problem with either child.

I would certainly never advocate fightiing with or forcing a child such as in the OP's situation over using the potty. I would just keep giving her the option and let her go naked whenever possible, using cloth diapers if you do use a diaper. But it depends on the level of involvement the OP desires. I would definitely discuss with dh and/or give him some reading on the variety of children's responses to potty learning and that everything she is doing is in the realm of normal, that shaming her is only going to make her more afraid of failing and hence cause more accidents. Good luck.

 

[SoggyGranolaMomma]

Agreed.

No matter which method of potty learning a family utilizes, if it involves shaming or yelling at the child, it's time to reevaluate things. Best of luck to you!

 

[aparent]

I agree with Sphinx. Isn't there a saying something like, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" I think you're right in this situation with your daughter but when in similar situations I try to keep in mind that as parents neither of us has a monopoly on the truth. That and it seems so easy to draw up sides or opposite positions and clash. Perhaps you two could sit down together and have a series of meeting and work out how you both will handle this situation (and other perhaps) in the future. Perhaps then a special word exchanged between the two of you in those difficult situations might say let's get back together with what we agreed to rather than you are wrong and need to stop.

 

[gaialice]

I do not want to get into the potty-learning debate, just the difference in parenting styles. I think what really works best for dh and me is that when either of us loses it or is about to lose it the other can just say "let me handle this" and then the other parent will step out. It does not always work (like at times dh will not want to step out) but if I say this early on in the process before it escalates, then it almost always does work.
I also do "redirect" dh to another activity I know he likes better than "disciplining" the girls like I will say "Let me handle this. And then I add ... mmmmhhhhh.... would you please please fix me a little snack while I am at it?"
DH loves fixing these little snaks for me and he is great at it, and then instead of feeling like a bad parent he feels like a great and loving cook and husband (which he really is!) and when we get to eat his snack we also have a little moment for reconnecting.

 

[MommyMine]

I live with this two.

I think a few things:

Shaming is bad but so is shaming your dh.

You are doing the right thing, talking when the kid is down- stepping in gentally when you can or feel you must.

But as an overarching principal I think that kids get two parents because we are different. Mom's bring their strenghts to the table and dads bring theirs. Kids learn a lot about life from us each.

And mom and dad each get to choose the relationship they want to have with their child. I say this to my dh a lot. I will say that I don't agree with his choice to parent that way but if that is the relationship he would like to CHOOSE with his boys then so be it.

I remind myself that my kids are getting to see a lot of things they do need to learn. They learn from dad that there is a limit to how far I can push before he blows his top. They learn that dad can be really mad and still love me. They get the chance to grow and do things that mom wouldn't let them do. They get pushed to excell in things mom wouldn't try even.

I get frusterated too but I think it is a balance and all in all (so long as it isn't abusive) it is good.

I think what frusterates me most of all is that my dh doesn't beat himself up fro the mistakes he makes...if I did that (after a potty training accident) I would be obsessing and beating myself up. My dh will go "woops" and let it go. He can just shake it off.

When my dh calls my baby a baby I usually respond by laughing and pointing out that he *IS* a baby!

 

[crunchymomma]

forcing a child such as in the OP's situation over using the potty.

Perhaps I have not been very clear. We are NOT forcing her to use the potty. She wants to do it - we ask her if she'd like to sit on the potty and when she says yes she does, if she says no, we say ok. We bring the potty into every room she's in so she can see it and use it when SHE wants to. She pees on the potty just fine but can't seem to wrap her head around pooping on the potty. She's not regressing, she never has been able to consistently poop on the potty. Since posting this message I have done more reading and spoken to more parents and have learned that poop-potty-learning (whatever you want to call it

) is a totally separate thing from pee-learning and often takes months longer to learn. Cool, I can stop being so frustrated and just go with it now.

In the meantime, she is still wearing her underpants, because that is what she has asked for. We have offered diapers, but she gets really upset about it. She and I have talked kindly about pooping in her underpants vs. pooping on the potty. Yesterday, I showed dd her favourite pair of sparkly turtle underpants that got stained b/c of pooping in them (a natural consequence learning situation, I think).

I did talk to my dh and even have him read this thread. He didn't think that what he was doing was shaming, but he sees it now and feels terribly. We've agreed that we need some sort of signal to let each other know if we're heading the wrong way with our parenting - I say each other b/c I can readily admit that I have my faults as well.

 

[sphinx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crunchymomma forcing a child such as in the OP's situation over using the potty. Perhaps I have not been very clear. We are NOT forcing her to use the potty.

Sorry! I didn't at all mean to imply that you were forcing her! I meant, I was recognizing from what you wrote that you didn't WANT to force her. I worded it badly, obviously. I'm glad you have come to an agreement with your dh an d that you've gotten more views & ideas on the potty learning. Hope it all goes well from here on in.

 

[crunchymomma]

No worries sphinx!

Thank you all for your words of advice.

 

[pacifica]

Sphinx, I just wanted to say your post was very helpful for me. I have these issues with my dh and what you wrote really helps me put my end goal into perspective. Thank you.

 

[moma justice]

"I know it works for some people, but I am far FAR too lazy to start a process at 4 months old that won't complete entirely until they are 2, when I can just wait until they are 3 and have it done in a week."

i just felt strongly moved to remind SoggyGranolaMomma that parenting is a "process" that we all began at the birth of our children and will NEVER complete entirely til we die (and i would like to think, i will mother my dd from the grave when she is an old woman)

i just think that you are obviously WAY confused about even the definition of EC (a clue: it has the word "communication" in the title)
much less any of the "process" invlolved and that you therefore have little right to speak about it in such a judgmental way.

maybe you should check out the EC board here or a book about it if you want to give out opinions about it to other mothers.

however, i do agree with you that 2 is a really hard time to introduce the potty learning.

if 3 works for your family, great...but bashing EC, something you don't even mildy understand b/c you are "FAR too lazy" to learn about/try it is kind of unhelpful in a discussion such as this one at MDC.