[Scrubsjm]

I have a friend/ next door neighbor (so I see her everyday) who is pregnant. She knows I'm anti-circ we've discussed it a few times and she was completely unaware of anything to do with circ. just figured everyone did it, it must be neccessary and important to do. I jokingly mentioned tonight that I'll leave her alone on the circ issue until she knows what she's having boy or girl. And she said very definitivly if it's a boy we're circing. Now this got my dander up as I'm becoming increasingly an intactivist. She also said her brother just had a son a few days ago and claimed he slept through the entire circ. Really people, you really think that little baby slept while he got a whopping hunk of his penis cut off? Now I'm going to hold true to my word and not bombard her with info until she finds out if she will have to make the circ or intact decision. But if she is having a boy how do I thoughtfully present her with info to hopefully change her mind? I realize I can't change peoples minds for them (a big frustration of mine!) But nor do I want her to just decide to circ because of misinformation, thinking it's the thing to do.

 

[kldliam]

I am in the same situation sort of. Old friend is due with a boy in Jan. She circ'd the first son. I didn't know about his birth until after he was already home.

I have decided to send her a baby gift with the (fairly unemotional and educational) Mothering circ article. I feel that is all i can do without having her completely turn on me.

http://www.luckystiff.org/files/TheCase6Page.pdf

that way, i butter her up w/ the gift while dropping the bomb... what do you think??

You could put the graphic Circ DVD in too...but that is a little more aggressive. However, if you mark it clearly with a graphic warning...and let her know that you thought she might like to see the procedure first maybe it would pass as a 'helpful' deed.

 

[Ivan's Mom]

I still wonder how to approach people as well. I was GIVING AWAY my baby's infant car seat and stroller travel system on Craig's List. The woman who wanted it and had told me what day she was going to come get them let me know that she was pregnant and having a boy. I simply said congratulations and that breastfeeding was best and circumcision was a thing of the past.

I never heard from her again and she did not pick up the free gear.

Some people just do not want to hear you, even when your message is positive and gentle.

:

 

[~Megan~]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrubsjm Really people, you really think that little baby slept while he got a whopping hunk of his penis cut off?

If she's anything like I was before I had my kids I had no idea what circumcision actually was. I thought of it like tail or ear docking on dogs.

 

[Arduinna]

I think waiting until someone knows if the baby has a penis is a bad idea. First off not everyone finds out before the birth. I didn't. Second off once they know for sure there is alot more pressure to make a decision and if they haven't thoroughly researched it before hand they will be more likely to go with what is the cultural norm for them.

So I vote for starting early.

 

[kldliam]

Quote:

Arduinna: I think waiting until someone knows if the baby has a penis is a bad idea. First off not everyone finds out before the birth. I didn't. Second off once they know for sure there is alot more pressure to make a decision and if they haven't thoroughly researched it before hand they will be more likely to go with what is the cultural norm for them. So I vote for starting early.

Good point. I second this!

 

[trmpetplaya]

I would give her the info soon and I also like giving the Mothering article. It's not blatantly intactivist to the point of being alienating, but it's definitely pro-intact

I found someone who had that issue so that I have a copy with all the sidebars and such. I think you can also get a copy of all of Mothering's circumcision articles in one special issue. I don't know if those would have all the side-bars or not though.

All you can do is give her the information and hope for the best. IMO, the best reason for starting now is so that she has the TIME to digest all the facts. It can be very disturbing to find out that everything you've believed and been told (by DOCTORS even) about circumcision your whole life is a lie. It can take quite a bit of time to come to grips with that. Some people do decide right away, but others may need extra time.

love and peace.

 

[Ivan's Mom]

I started thinking about circumcision the day I found out that I was pregnant.

I had a bad pregnancy and a lot of issues. I was seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist at the time to get off of stupid Paxil. I had had anxiety attacks from trying to go off Paxil myself. Anyway, I was telling the therapist that one of the major sources of the panic attacks was thinking about circumcision. I had not researched it because I was so sick during pregnancy. Anyway, this jerk told me not to worry because "thousands of circumcisions are done every day with no problem."

"And don't you and your husband want the baby to look like Dad?"

I am so sick of people in the medical field dismissing the trauma of circumcision. Educate people sooner rather than later. IMO

Ivan is intact because I found out the truth about circ.

 

[Ivan's Mom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamao'two tail or ear docking on dogs.

 

[AntoninBeGonin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamao'two If she's anything like I was before I had my kids I had no idea what circumcision actually was. I thought of it like tail or ear docking on dogs.

I don't know much about ear cropping, but I do know that tail docking can significantly reduce the size of a dog's tail. Ever seen a cocker spaniel with an undocked tail? They are long, feathered, and beautiful. When I had my c.s. I had no idea his tail had even been tampered with. No one asked my permission, or his either, I'm sure. Years later, I met a family on a camping trip with a c.s. and his natural tail. I could barely believe the difference.

http://www.animal-photography.co.uk/...ockerpage.html It's hard to see, but if you've ever seen a c.s. with a docked tail you will notice a huge difference.

~Nay

 

[Quirky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamao'two If she's anything like I was before I had my kids I had no idea what circumcision actually was. I thought of it like tail or ear docking on dogs.

Both of which are also excruciatingly painful and unnecessary surgeries.

And I'm sure you know that, but I think the point of comparison is valid - many people believe that these procedures are necessary, healthful, painless, etc. and the doctor/veterinary professions don't do enough to discourage them. Many believe that puppies don't feel pain, just like they believe that newborn babies don't feel pain. These are cultural, cosmetic surgeries without any necessity behind them.

 

[Lula's Mom]

The parallels are pretty strong.

Depending on the breed and the breeder, docking and cropping may be done without anesthesia.

I have had two American Pit Bull Terriers for many years. My male dog will be 13 in December. His ears were cropped when he was a baby. Like Antonin said, no one asked him or me...the breeder did it. It is not a requirement for showing his breed, and we only showed for a little while anyway. When I first saw him, he was having complications and scar tissue was causing one ear to curl down, the other over the top of his head. He was deformed. I massaged them for weeks to get them back to a more natural position.

Having his ears cut has affected him all of his life. People are afraid of him, when they were never afraid of my same-size, same-breed, same-color female dog with natural uncut ears. My male dog adores people, but I have had to hear them say he looks like a "devil dog", he "looks mean", "Is he going to bite me?" and all the while he stands wagging his tail and wishing they would pet him too. He was affected forever by someone else's cosmetic preference.

Back on topic: it's not easy to approach this topic, is it? I'm always awed by people (like baybee!) who can find ways to bring it up even to perfect strangers.

I think if I were dealing with a neighbor like yours, I'd collect some materials- the Mothering article combo is very good- and say "I know you say your mind is made up, but please read this. There's a lot more information about circumcision than there used to be."

 

[ConfusedPrincess]

Honestly, last time I was in here I felt people were forcing their opinions on me and this was *after* I asked for info. So I think unless someone asks you for info. then you should leave them be. It's very frustrating for someone to speak their opinions about the child *you're* carrying. And to include info. in a gift is a bit tacky/pushy. if someone I knew did that to me-on ANY topic I hadn't asked for I would be offended and feel that person was trying to impose their beliefs onto me. If it comes up in conversation then mention it. But let them research for themsleves. i found that it is much easier and you don't feel so like someone is up in your business.

 

[Scrubsjm]

I'd have to respectfully disagree there. This is a friend whom I've discussed circ. with before she was even pregnant and she believed at that point it was totally no big deal, necessary, not painful, that the vast majority of boys are circ'd, etc. I feel that as a friend it IS my responsibility to help educate her. I may not change her mind, but I can sleep better at night knowing I did at least attempt to change some of her misconceptions. And hopefully that will be enough to encourage her to do further research. Of course the final decision is up to the parents, but shouldn't those of us who have knowledge share it with others? Otherwise how can we expect to bring about change and end circ?

 

[Quirky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrubsjm I'd have to respectfully disagree there. This is a friend whom I've discussed circ. with before she was even pregnant and she believed at that point it was totally no big deal, necessary, not painful, that the vast majority of boys are circ'd, etc. I feel that as a friend it IS my responsibility to help educate her. I may not change her mind, but I can sleep better at night knowing I did at least attempt to change some of her misconceptions. And hopefully that will be enough to encourage her to do further research. Of course the final decision is up to the parents, but shouldn't those of us who have knowledge share it with others? Otherwise how can we expect to bring about change and end circ?

I totally agree.

ConfusedPrincess, read the sticky at the top of the forum about "Circumcised and Regret It." Each and every one of those mamas wishes they'd had someone to tell them the truth about circumcision -- the truth that society, their friends, their families, and especially their doctors, did NOT tell them -- before it was too late for their sons.

 

[Ivan's Mom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConfusedPrincess And to include info. in a gift is a bit tacky/pushy. [/FONT]

Saving a child from torture and gential mutilation is NEVER TACKY!!!!!!!

:

Reminder - This forum is the "case AGAINST Circumcision"

 

[TigerTail]

I believe it is the height of presumption (& 'tackiness') to cut off someone's genitals without their express permission.

It would be tacky for me to tell a stranger that their little boy's hair looked girly & it ought to be cut. But circumcision is not a personal preference, it's a human rights violation.

Are you opposed to speaking out for civil rights ('we ought to mind our own business if they don't want ******* to sit at the lunch counter') or speaking out against torture of adults in another sovereign country? Why not speak up for victims in our own that cannot speak up for themselves?

It's ironic, because the whole idea of being afraid of making a social gaffe by mentioning this subject, is to treat this subject as though it were long curls on a boy, & not a human rights violation of the grossest kind. If we don't take the chance of pissing someone off (I'm sure some Yankee civil rights protesters 'alienated' some segregationists somewhere in the 60s

) education CANNOT occur.

(Sorry, long-haired boy mamas, it's the only minor preference people feel strongly enough to argue about, that they ought to butt out of, that I could think of 'off the top of my head'

, no offense intended. I was pointing out the difference.)

 

[DocsNemesis]

I totally agree. If all she is hearing from people is that it is normal, that it needs to be done, then having someone tell her that that isnt true is important. No one said a word about it to me during my pregnancy and you know what? If medicaid had still been paying for the procedure, he would have been circ'd and I would have felt horrible later.
On a seperate topic, I wish someone would have told me about homebirth when I was pregnant with my first. I had no clue that people still had homebirths and I liked the idea, but didnt think it was possible. I could have avoided a horrible birth if someone had just opened their mouths. I think the same thing goes with breastfeeding-when people just brush off the fact that a mom wants to use formula, she might not ever really think about it. My friend was still under the impression that formula was just as good as breastmilk and that it would help her baby sleep. I told her that it wasnt true-no one had ever asked her WHY she wanted to formula feed, not even WIC, and therefore she hadnt been told the facts. She agreed to try it for a week or two and ended up loving it and went on to nurse for over 2 years!
Anyway, the point is, even if you dont want to hear it, for some women being told hey, it ISNT the norm anymore, it isnt necessary, it HURTS, that can be enough to make them change their minds or at the very least, to look into it more.

 

[KrystalC]

I couldn't agree more with what everyone else has said, ConfusedPrincess. This forum is titled appropriately as everyone here is anti-circ. Coming here looking for information is one thing, but expecting those posting in this forum to keep their anti-circ opinions to themselves is going a bit far. There are TONS of resources out there indicating circ is an unnecessary medical procedure that causes babies pain in addition to being a violation of that baby boy's right to have a whole penis, but many people ASSUME it's okay because it's the "norm" and don't bother to look any further. In my opinion, you took the right first step by coming here to ask questions, but ultimately, it's your decision whether or not to have your boy circ'd and if you do, don't expect anyone here to congratulate you on a wise choice.

In order for a popular opinion (or norm) to change, people have to be educated. In order for people to become educated, other people have to take a stand and get the word out there. That said, I think bringing the topic up is important. If you change minds that way, wonderful! If you don't, you certainly tried, but unfortunately, you can't win them all.

I've been providing people with the link to the statement from the AAP indicating that circumcision is unnecessary. I think it's helpful for it to come from a source like that rather than one that's based on anti-circ ideologies. People tend to accept organizations like the AAP as an authority to be trusted and are more likely to take notice with regard to things like this.

 

[baybee]

I'm always talking to complete strangers about h. birth, too. I figure about 69 out of 70 give me a pained smile and basically don't want to hear BUT that 70th!!!!! omg, she gets it and goes with it and has an ecstatic birth. It's worth it.

On the subject of dog mutilation. One of the men on the restore list wrote in about a visit to the vet with his dog. He casually asked the vet what the vet would say if he asked him to circumcise his dog??
The vet took a very long pause and then said quietly "I would have to report you to the ASPCA for cruelty, I would never circumcise an animal." I've never forgotten that. . . . . we wouldn't do it to an animal and we do it to humans.

I believe that the vet organizations are moving towards banning the tail and ear mutilation, too. Baybee