[laneylue]

Yesterday I stopped what I was doing and tried to *really* focus on how I would feel if our (American) society one day decided that women's vaginas are unclean, infection ridden, gross and ugly. How would I feel if researchers starting recommending cutting the labia or clitoral hood of every newborn female to reduce the risk of yeast infections? How would I feel if the majority of men and women believed that vaginas are imperfect, shameful, and a birth defect in their natural state?

I would be incredibly angry, offended, hurt, worried, sad and frightened. It would be deeply upsetting. I would shed many tears.

I wonder why so many circumcised men don't feel the same way. I guess it's because they've come to accept RIC and view circumcision as normal, and are ashamed of foreskin. I just keep wanting to ask them, "WHY AREN'T YOU ANGRY AND OFFENDED?!" I know some do feel that way, but the vast majority doesn't.

I just don't understand. I guess they are so brainwashed that even they are ashamed of their own bodies as they were created.

 

[kldliam]

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I just don't understand. I guess they are so brainwashed that even they are ashamed of their own bodies as they were created.

__________________________

Yes, You have hit the nail on the head. (pardon the pun)

Let me give you a similar (though not as irreversible) example of cultural brainwashing:

Most women in the US shave their legs. How many women in here are ashamed, embarassed, or self conscious to walk around in shorts in public without clean shaved legs?

A similiar phenomenom goes on with men and their penis's i suspect. It is full cultural brainwashing that gets you to a place in your mind where you are ashamed of your body in its natural state.

Can you think of any others??

 

[LoveChild421]

I think a similiar thing actually is going on with women- think of how many women (particularly porn stars) get their labias "reduced" or whatever the heck- I saw it on Nip/Tuck and have heard about it elsewhere. We all know how beauty trends tend to follow/intertwine with the porn industry (bush was "in" in the 70's, now since most porn stars shave/wax/whatever their pubic hair women and men think "bald" is "in" KWIM? or maybe its a case of chicken and the egg) either way, there is a disturbing trend of women not being happy with their genitals and thinking they are disgusting unless they cut off part of thier labia. I know women and men who actually think female genitalia is "nasty" sad as that is...

It would not surprise me if the scenario you have posed does one day occur- this is one crazy country...it seems like most people would hack off/enlarge/reduce/nip/tuck something- people just aren't happy with themselves period and there is a LOT of body shame in the US (think of how nudity is viewed here vs in Europe)

 

[kldliam]

Being naked? We are taught in our culture to hide our bodies under clothes. How many people (women in particular) are readily criticised for showing too much skin or too much body form?

In parts of Africa, many natives still walk around without clothes on and without any shame of that. I live in San Diego, where it's warm alot of the time. Why don't we do this here?

 

[kldliam]

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Love child: there is a LOT of body shame in the US

Body shame. Yes! We are shamed by our culture so often regarding our bodies. Men are shamed into thinking they can't live their lives as happy intact men. That is why the circ'd culture teases intact men. It is a form of peer shame.

Perhaps body shame is why cosmetic surgery is such a booming biz.

 

[AXEius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kldliam __________________________ Yes, You have hit the nail on the head. (pardon the pun) Let me give you a similar (though not as irreversible) example of cultural brainwashing: Most women in the US shave their legs. How many women in here are ashamed, embarassed, or self conscious to walk around in shorts in public without clean shaved legs? A similiar phenomenom goes on with men and their penis's i suspect. It is full cultural brainwashing that gets you to a place in your mind where you are ashamed of your body in its natural state. Can you think of any others??

I think this is also a good comparison. Though as you said shaving is reversible, woman are constantly told that being "unshaven" is gross, ugly and unhygienic, unnatural (yes ive actually heard people say a women with hair is unnatural. Yet all woman naturally grow hair in the areas they shave!). Men can have hair everywhere and while by some considered ugly, I have never heard of hair on a man considerd being "unhygienic" or "unnatural". Much the same as a foreskin on a male in the U.S. is considerd gross, ugly, unhygienic and even unnatural . However a foreskin on a woman is considerd normal, atractive, and NOT unhygienic to poses one, let alone unnatural. While shaving is reversable and circumcision is not, men rarely are reminded by society about their lack foreskin, women are reminded on daily basis. I think this gives men even less oppourtunities to think about what was done to them or the fact thay they are supposed to have foreskins. I think if most men would let their guard down and learn about circumcision they would be pretty pissed about it ( i know i sure was). I also think that if most woman thought about why they shave or why they believe they "want" to shave they would quit.

I guess my point is that men WOULD be pissed about circumcision if society would ever own up to whats happening and actually tell men what was done to them and that,,,,
it IS NATURAL to have a foreskin!

 

[orangebird]

Yeah, I think women are already conditoned to think their vaginas and related area is gross. Lok at all the female deodorant sprays, douches, stuff like that. I think we are already taught that. We don't routinely cut any part of it off (yet) but are definitely told it is gross in it's natural state. We trim and clean and flush it out and spray it so it smells nice, etc.

Edited to fix some spelling/typos

 

[laneylue]

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Originally Posted by mara Yeah, I think women are already conditoned to think their vaginas and related area is gross. Lok at all the female deodorant sprays, douches, stuff like that. I think we are already taught that. We don't routinely cut any part of it off (yet) but are definitely told it is gross in it's natural state. We trim and clean and flush it out and spray it so it smells nice, etc. Edited to fix some spelling/typos

Hmmm, you're right. I never thought of that, I guess because I actually like my hoohoo.

Maybe one thing I can think of are breasts. I think far too many women are ashamed of not having large breasts or having breasts too large. Personally, I know too many women who obsess about their breast size and are really unhappy as a result.

I guess it's not exactly the same, though, since any breast enhancements/reductions are performed on a consenting adult.

But I agree with the body shame issue as a whole. I really hope my daughter grows up to love her body just as it was created.

 

[kxsiven]

Quote:

Originally Posted by laneylue I wonder why so many circumcised men don't feel the same way. I guess it's because they've come to accept RIC and view circumcision as normal, and are ashamed of foreskin. I just keep wanting to ask them, "WHY AREN'T YOU ANGRY AND OFFENDED?!" I know some do feel that way, but the vast majority doesn't. I just don't understand. I guess they are so brainwashed that even they are ashamed of their own bodies as they were created.

The same exact thing is happening in Africa where circumcised women are so brainwashed by their own mothers & culture that they would die from embarrasment if they had a natural vagina.

 

[pdx.mothernurture]

Speaking of natural things and body shame, how about breastfeeding?

Being told to cover up...

It's okay in public as long as you use a blanket...

Breasts are sexual objects...

A baby attached to a nipple is somehow gross/perverse...

Nursing past 6 months or a year is 'weird'...

There's a whole industry for special nursing clothing to ensure you're well-hidden...

I could go on.

How many women don't feel comfortable going out in public without make-up? Why are there so many chemically scented 'feminine hygiene' products on the market? Flavored sexual products?

I mean, really...when you think about it, it's pretty insane! Reminds me of the phrase/bumpersticker, "If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!"

Jen

 

[MommytoB]

I think of the not 'really being sad or mad could be they don't know what actually was fully taken away or truly understand the foreskin word it could depend on how a parent talks of or if they do talk about it.

If a man who was circ heard it was a useless piece of skin from their parent (why would a parent lie ?) or try that as if 'stated' from doctor so why would a doctor lie ? Or what if both a parent or doctor use words that their are 'health benefits" from circ so they could think it must be true because circumcision still exists so why would they do that if there was more to 'foreskin' and no health benefits ?

It could be very confusing since I know that my brother now finally got engaged it will proably be in a year or so that I could possibly be an aunt since their wedding is going to be soon & simple.

So they have a intact nephew and all my brother is at the 'no pain in later time will hurt more' later . I told my brother I am very against circumcision and I pleaded to him if he ever has a boy never do that to him .

I agree with the body shame of usa my mom definetly has big issues of it she freaks out over just a 'bra strap' showing .

Gets so annoyed going you have to do something to hide it because she thinks it's slutty and I am going what's the big deal of a 'bra strap' showing ? It's not like I am flashing my whole bbs all over the fair ground.

She also is against any playing with private parts so when my son is in the tub she lectures him no touching down there that is bad .

I am like Grrrrrrrr it's not bad it's normal to do so and he needs to do that so he can help himself to retract when he gets older.

 

[kldliam]

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Mommy2 be: She also is against any playing with private parts so when my son is in the tub she lectures him no touching down there that is bad .

This is exactly how the older generation teaches the younger generation to feel body shame. This is exactly the kind of mentality that made circumcision so popular to begin with. People hated when children touched their genitals....the were desparate for a cure. The doctors were only too hapy to give them one. Cut off that "extra skin" and Junior has less to fiddle with right?

 

[MatrionsRevenge]

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Originally Posted by kldliam This is exactly how the older generation teaches the younger generation to feel body shame. This is exactly the kind of mentality that made circumcision so popular to begin with. People hated when children touched their genitals....the were desparate for a cure. The doctors were only too hapy to give them one. Cut off that "extra skin" and Junior has less to fiddle with right?

Hmm I don't think it makes much difference. You see I have a friend who has a little boy. Who still does just that. My brothers would all the time when they were little in fact that's were I picked my habits up.

 

[frontierpsych]

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Originally Posted by MatrionsRevenge Hmm I don't think it makes much difference. You see I have a friend who has a little boy. Who still does just that. My brothers would all the time when they were little in fact that's were I picked my habits up.

Exactly-- so they had to come up with other ways to justify it.

I never understood RIC to reduce the risk of infections that *might* happen. Should we take out their tonsils and appendixes at birth too?

:

 

[kxsiven]

OK. I'm invating you all - with your family - here. I heat up sauna and you bring food&drinks. After a good finnish sauna, women&men and children all together - no one will feel shamed of any bodyparts! I promise!!!!(hint; extra chunky peanut butter highly appreciated by your host!)

 

[kldliam]

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Hmm I don't think it makes much difference.

Of course it doesn't. But that is just how it was sold to the USA back in the day. Certainly the circ'd boys fondle themselves too. They just can't do any tugging on the foreskin.

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You see I have a friend who has a little boy. Who still does just that. My brothers would all the time when they were little in fact that's were I picked my habits up.

Wish it would have died out after people realized it wasn't helping the problem (dreaded genital touching) but there was too much to lose now. They had to find "studies" to justify it or else they would have to come clean and let everyone know that circ did not prevent genital touching and masturbation.

 

[DocsNemesis]

Ok kxsiven, I am so there!! lol, I have always wanted to go to Europe, so I will be sure to stop by.

 

[Fi.]

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Flavored sexual products?

Those are slightly different. They're not really meant for use on female genitals (and I'd never use one on a foreskin either personally...hello yeast infection). They're meant for cut penises, stomachs, chests/breasts, etc.

 

[AntoninBeGonin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mara Yeah, I think women are already conditoned to think their vaginas and related area is gross. Lok at all the female deodorant sprays, douches, stuff like that. I think we are already taught that. We don't routinely cut any part of it off (yet) but are definitely told it is gross in it's natural state. We trim and clean and flush it out and spray it so it smells nice, etc. Edited to fix some spelling/typos

OT: hey, this is one woman who has never douched, used feminine deodorants, or any other product to make my coochie smell like a pan of freshly baked cookies.

I don't even use soap on the area. Doesn't bother my husband none, kwim?

~Nay

 

[2Sweeties1Angel]

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Most women in the US shave their legs. How many women in here are ashamed, embarassed, or self conscious to walk around in shorts in public without clean shaved legs?

I'm not embarrassed to walk around with unshaven legs, but I do shave. For some reason leg hair itches. I think I have sensory issues.

Quote:

We don't routinely cut any part of it off (yet) but are definitely told it is gross in it's natural state. We trim and clean and flush it out and spray it so it smells nice, etc.

We're "supposed" to trim our pubic hair???? Why didn't I ever get that memo? I do wash every night in the shower, but nothing special. I tried a deoderant spray once when I had an infection that was putting off a nasty odor (it was making me sick, so it was bad) but it didn't really help.

I basically have no shame. I'd walk around naked if I wouldn't get arrested, and believe me I do not have a model perfect body. I've even thought about joining the nudist colony a few towns over because I think it would be extremely liberating.