[mquester]

My MIL, who I otherwise like normally and who bf, clothdiapered and uses only alternative medicene still tries to convince us that ds "needs" to be circ'ed (he's 6 months old).

She refuses to read any of the literature I've tried to share on the subject and just keeps talking about how it's "cleaner" (she's never been with someone who wasn't circumcised, obviously) I think it might be due to guilt over not protecting her 3 sons if it is wrong.

My SIL doesn't help - she circ'ed both her sons and claims she prefers men who are (she's been with lots of men - I think even the circ'ed ones have had problems with basic hygeine from meeting a few of them -the father(s) of both her sons are in prison. Her 18 month old had a horrible circ - I can't even stand to change his diaper it looks so bad and he's nearly 2. Poor kid.

How do I argue with the "cleanliness" defense when they refuse to consider any scientific evidence. Next time I change ds' diaper in front of them I'm tempted to explain the what a foreskin is and how it works. Any other ideas?

Do you think I would be going too far if, next time she brings it up, I say something along the lines of "Did you douche your daughter after every diaper change when she was a baby, because it gets so "dirty" down there? You could have just cut her labias and clitoris off" She's a bit of a feminist so changing gender might help.

I'm not trying to make her feel guilty - she just needs to realise things have changed since the 1970's and she's not being fair...

Thanks,
MQ

 

[woobysma]

I think switching genders would be a good way to go. I don't have any personal knowlege (only boy babies so far) - but I've heard from several mommas that diaper changes on girls can be very messy, "nooks and crannies" seems to be the phrase most ofton used. I'm sure she wouldn't agree that it would have been worth it to remove her daughters genatalia for the sake of "cleanliness"

 

[Frankly Speaking]

You have to read between the lines here to understand what's going on. She doesn't want to know better and by refusing to read what you have provided, she is maintaining that denial. If she doesn't read it, she doesn't have to face it.

She is falling back on the cleanliness issue because she doesn't think you can argue it and if you do try and are even marginally effective, it could cause a rift.

This will not affect her love for her grandson and fighting it may affect her feelings for you.

I think I would just drop it with two caveats. First, if she is going to be caring for your son, make absolutely sure she knows the proper care of an intact child and make absolutely sure she agrees to follow your instructions for his care, ie. clean the outside only and absolutely no retracting and two, if you do not feel very confident that she will follow your instructions, do not leave him alone with her.

Frank

 

[LavenderMae]

I think since she obviously doesn't want to know the facts I would as nice as could tell her to drop it. Tell her you aren't circing your son and you know intact isn't dirtier etc.....then try to let it go. That would be so hard for me but what else can you do with people who won't listen and won't read info, ugh.

 

[shelbean91]

I would stop trying to convince- she doesn't want to hear. I would start saying 'it's not your decision, it's not cleaner, it's not happening, it won't be discussed'

 

[willowsmama]

I try the 'would you circ your dd' arguement after that, screw it. She's not going to listen. For unwanted advice a good' Thanks for your input' tends to shut people up.

 

[aira]

My DH's response to anyone who says idiot things is "Duly noted."

Maybe that is enough to give her nothing to latch onto for an arguement??

 

[A&A]

Great comeback, aira!

I agree with the others--tell her that you will not be discussing this any further.

 

[CryPixie83]

I've never bought into the "circ'd is cleaner" issue simply because my Papa was uncut and in his entire 76 years of life he never had ONE problem with hygiene, including the 5 years he served overseas during WW2 and the last 2-3 years of his life (when he was suffering from Altzheimer's Disease).

I've never been with a man who wasn't cut but I do prefer the appearance of an intact penis.

I guess maybe you coud just tell your MIL that her grandson's penis is none of her business since he's healthy. Let her know that when you run into a problem due to him being intact (which is extrememly unlikely) then she can put in her 2 cents.

 

[hummingbear]

How about mentioning that there isn't a single medical association in the world that recommends routine infant circumcision (see Frank for verification of this) and that the issue is not up for discussion or debate.

OOh and out of curiosity what are her stories? It does seem odd that this woman appears to be someone who keeps herself informed but she doesn't want any literature on the subject. There must be something deeper here. If she were listened to she just might find the space to change her viewpoint. OK Getting more complicated could work too!

 

[mquester]

Yeah, last time MIL said something about circ being cleaner I just said something like "People used to think that." and let it drop. I still wish she would view it as another aspect of natural parenting. Goodness- she even threw a bit of a fit when I was in labor because I begged for an epidural at the last minute rather than go unmedicated. She's currently trying to get me to stop bf'ing because she did it at 6 months with all her kids. She just firmly believes the way she did things raising her kids is what everyone should do

I guess it just frustrates me because she was the one person in either of our families who I thought would be most accepting of our decision. My voluntary c-section, formula feeding mother was the person I thought would be very critical and after my exposing her to all the material out there she's actually becoming anti-circumcision

I guess that will teach me to judge people!

I guess I won't even try to persuade her anymore, although I have a Chinese friend who's been using the "cleaner" argument as well even though she used to be against circumcision, (TG she's not expecting yet) so I wish I could find an effective way to counter this argument. How "dirty" do people think one little boy's genitals can get anyway? Ever heard of bathing? Aauuughh!

:

Thanks for the advice,
MQ

 

[Sarah]

Ask her how a intact penis is dirtier than her own vagina, and ask her if she is not applying a sexist double standrd to men? Her idea of cleaner is based on a disruption of a normal body- exposing what should be internal parts to the air. Tell her someone should have hacked off her labia so she would have a nice dry clean clitoris. Enough is enough, say it like it is.

Love Sarah

 

[TigerTail]

thank you, sarah. as usual you say what i was thinking but more concise and better-put.

oh, if this was me, they'd WANT to drop the subject, lol.

suse

 

[mquester]

Thanks for all the advice/support. This board is the best intact support group I've found for advice on caring for ds and educating others and I'm so glad to have found it

I think I will finally try to convince my MIL one last time. To be fair, she's refused to read any of the literature I've tried to present her with so I don't know if any of it would change her mind. I think it might and that's why she refuses to read it

I am going to make sure she knows intact care for ds regardless though. It hasn't been an issue since she's never cared for him when I wasn't there, but I might as well cover that subject as well.

I really do think I will eventually convert her to intactivism because she really is a fair person - It's just that if she admits we weren't wrong to leave ds intact than that means she was wrong to have let her sons be circ'ed. She won't want to face that.

I've got two weeks until we see MIL again to decide what material to share with her. Any suggestions? She's very into organic foods and alternative/natural medicines....Really doesn't trust doctors and prefers hypnosis and herbs.

Thanks again,
MQ

 

[Frankly Speaking]

You might try one of Dr. Paul Fleiss' writings. He has the credibility of being a doctor and has an easy to read, non confrontive style. That may be just what it takes.

Frank

 

[Sarah]

http://www.drcat.org/articles_interv.../firstcut.html

This lady has a "look" (lovely!) and attitude (earthy- spiritual) which may appeal to your MIL.

Love Sarah