How would you have handled this??

794 Views 24 Replies 16 Participants Last post by mamaduck, Jun 6, 2005

Ruthla

Discussion Starter · Jun 6, 2005

My three kids were playing outside today, in the sand pit where the above-ground pool used to be. The girls were building a big mountain of sand in the center, and at first Jack was helping them. Then he started ruining the sand mountain and the girls called me in to intervene.

First I sat down on the grass next to the sand pit and told Jack I was sad and wanted him to come hug me. He came and hugged me, and I told him I was sad because he wasn't playing nicely with Leah and Hannah, and he needed to play nicely if he wanted to play with them. Then he went back and things were OK for a while.

A little while later, he continued to mess up the sand mountain and refused to come when I asked him to. Then he threw sand in Hannah's face. I picked him up, kicking and screaming, and held him for maybe a minute while explaining to him that he had to play nicely or go inside. When I put him down, he apologized to Hannah and played nicely for a few minutes.

The second time he threw sand at Hannah, I picked him up and carried him into the house, kicking and screaming. I'm not sure how "gentle" this was, but it was a safety issue and I wanted to intervene quickly. The problem is, he didn't stay in the house- he's big enough to open the screen door and let himself outside, and he can run faster than I can.

Then he got rough again, and gentle discipline wasn't working. I tried to redirect him and get him to play with something else- it didn't work for long. He played with his little red car- then tried to drive the little red car over the sand mountain!!! All this time, Leah was working very hard to make the sides of the mountain perfectly smooth, and she was getting very angry at Jack for messing it up.

I somehow managed to convince him to go inside and watch TV- we walked very calmly from the sand pit to the house, stopping to admire some inchworms (and say hello to them) on the way. Now he's watching TV.

Is there a better way I could have handled this? I feel like I was too soft on him (thus being unfair to Leah and Hannah) and then I feel like I was too rough when I did take action. When I carried him into the house and he went out again I felt like I was being too permissive AND too rough at the same time!!

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IdentityCrisisMama

· #2 · Jun 6, 2005

Hum…

Well, I only have one child so take what I say with that in mind.

One thing that I might have done is try to figure out why he was acting that way. It sounds like he didn't like the activity they were playing but wanted to be involved with them and the sand. I might have offered to help him build something that he could destroy or run his car up.

Also, do you think that telling him that he made you sad was too heavy for him? I know my DC would not deal well with that. Were you really sad? I think he could have used different information about that first situation. Like that the other children were building something specific and they wanted it high and smooth and etc.

I think it really depends on what was going on with him. What's your best guess? Was he tired, jealous that the other two were playing so well together, frustrated because he couldn't build as well or because he wanted to play another way?

mamazee

· #3 · Jun 6, 2005

Little kids love knocking down towers, sand castles, etc. I probably would have built another sand castle with him that he could knock down.

CookieMonsterMommy

· #4 · Jun 6, 2005

Ruth,

Hugs to you.

I also have only one child, so take this for what it's worth.

I would have let him calm down 1st then explain to him why he cannot throw sand at people (it can really hurt them, etc) depending on age and development levels, etc.

I'm also a HUGE beliver in the whole How would it make you feel. What does he like to do? Paint, build towers with blocks, etc etc etc? Turn it around to him and say "How would it make you feel if Hannah ripped up a drawing that you just colored and put a lot of time into?" or "How would you feel if Hannah threw sand in your face?" and when he answers, ask him how he thinks it made Hannah feel when he ruined her sand mountain and threw sand in her face.

Maybe he also wanted a little extra attention and was willing to take bad attention instead of no attention? (not saying you were neglecting him at all, but maybe he just needed some extra?)

Best Wishes,
Kelly

ETA that bulding a tower that he could destroy is an EXCELLENT idea!

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cjr

· #5 · Jun 6, 2005

Well, I don't think you or your dd will like what I have to say. Toddler's and pre-schoolers knock thing down. That's what they do, and it's a very important part of their development. It's a cause and effect thing. "What happens if I knock this sand down?". I go through this with my girls and ds ALL the time. They like his megablocks and he likes to knock them down. I tell the girls that it's his job to knock them down because he's learning about the world around him. Just like throwing the toy on the floor over and over again as babies. It's a very important part of development. Unfortunately that doesn't help your dd and all her hard work. I tell the girls that if they are going to build something while ds is around, then they are going to have to deal with having to re-build it. No matter what you do your little guy just won't grasp the concept of not knocking the sand castle down. He has gotten a big reaction from it thus far and will continue to gravitate towards that reaction from here on in.

Next time I wouldn't make a big deal about it. Just let him do it. The bigger the reaction, the more he will do it. If he doesn't get the reaction then he will get bored with it and move on. Instead of constantly knocking it over, he may just do it once or twice. I think throwing the sand was either out of frustration, or an attempt to get a big reaction.

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maya44

· #6 · Jun 6, 2005

hmm, I would either:

A. Let them work it out themselves. Which might mean that the sand castle got knocked down and your ds would be prob be yelled at by his big sisters, (or pushed) etc...but he might learn to stay out of their way

or

B. Take him away from them to watch TV, at the first sign he was going to destory their hard work.

I would not just tell them they have to expect a 3.5 y.o. to knock things down. I would either protect their turf or let them protect it (as long as it didnt' endager him)

Ruthla

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jun 6, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjr
. I tell the girls that if they are going to build something while ds is around, then they are going to have to deal with having to re-build it. No matter what you do your little guy just won't grasp the concept of not knocking the sand castle down.

See, the girls WANTED me to take him inside or play with him elsewhere so they could do their thing with the sand, but he wanted no part of it. He wanted to play in the sand with them.

This all comes down to balancing everybody's needs and wants. The girls get very resentful of ds at times because they can't play "big kid games" when he's around. Sometimes they enjoy playing his games or altering their games to include him, and sometimes they want to be free to play age-appropriate games. I think it's important for Jack to learn that his sisters don't ALWAYS want to play with him.

AngelBee

· #8 · Jun 6, 2005

I think the girls should have the right to build a castle and not have it knocked down. If he would have been allowed to keep doing it, it would have made it seem that his needs are more important then the girls.

I think you did a good job trying to redirect hm.....better than I would have done.

I love the idea of building a seperate castle with him that he can knock down!

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cmb123

· #9 · Jun 6, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthla
See, the girls WANTED me to take him inside or play with him elsewhere so they could do their thing with the sand, but he wanted no part of it. He wanted to play in the sand with them.

I probably would have just come and distracted him onto something else without the whole part about being sad that he wasn't playing nicely.
I often have to do this with my youngest when the older two would like to play with out her now and then. She might complain for a minute..." I wanna play spy with N and B," I'll say "yeah, that looks pretty cool..lets go find that CD you like and do a dance.." She usually will just move into the next thing without missing a beat. I find (with her anyway) that if I were to sit and have a long drawn out talk about her feelings, etc...that'll just make it worse because then she'll be focused on it more KWIM? ( i'm talking about this play situation, there are lots of times when long discussions about feelings are helpful

). Really it's often just the transition that's the hard part, and when you have them on to something else they forget all about the first activity.

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Chanley

· #10 · Jun 6, 2005

I have two and we deal with these things often

First of all, I agree with helping him build a tower that he could knock down. This could be really fun. You could talk about what a big giant monster he was as he stomped through the sand tower that mommy built.

Second, when he threw sand, I would NOT have picked him up. I would have gone to the hurt child and talked about how much it hurts to get sand in her eyes and then tried to get him to help make her feel better. I would have given her the attention. I am working on giving the attention to the victim and trying to get the perpetrator to help make amends. That way, negative behavior is not getting the attention it is aiming for but it is not being ignored either. AND hopefully, it is teaching them about empathy for others.

He had needs that were not being met by that situation. Perhaps you can ask him why he wanted to knock down thier tower. Did he feel left out? Would it help if he could play with mommy. Maybe big sister could make him a special sand tower that he could knock down and one that he could NOT knock down.

Kids are pretty reasonable if we catch them before they are caught up in emotion. I find that talking about these kind of situations later sometimes helps too. Like while having breakfast, you could talk about what happens in the sandbox and how they feel.

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Britishmum

· #11 · Jun 6, 2005

I don't think you did badly at all. I would not have given him the 'sad' talk though.

I know that young children like to knock things down. But I also know from my own kids that sometimes they like to do what their siblings don't want them to do - just for the heck of it. So I guess my response would vary according to whether or not he understood not to knock it down. I think the older children have the right to play without a younger sibling ruining their work, and he needs to learn that.

So, I"d have given him a couple of chances, then brought him in to do something else if he wasnt going to play alongside them appropriately.

It's hard juggling everyone's needs, isn't it? I've just been doing somethign similar over beads that my oldest wanted to thread in peace.

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kavamamakava

· #12 · Jun 6, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthla
See, the girls WANTED me to take him inside or play with him elsewhere so they could do their thing with the sand, but he wanted no part of it. He wanted to play in the sand with them.

This all comes down to balancing everybody's needs and wants. The girls get very resentful of ds at times because they can't play "big kid games" when he's around. Sometimes they enjoy playing his games or altering their games to include him, and sometimes they want to be free to play age-appropriate games. I think it's important for Jack to learn that his sisters don't ALWAYS want to play with him.

I remember having a destructo baby brother. My mother gave me the authority to solve that sort of situation on my own. At 10, I didn't expect my mother to come get him when he was in my way. Maybe that was too much responsibility for a 10 yr old, I dunno. I also used to do the grocery shopping alone and help the woman with MS in our apartment building by making a pot of soup and buying her a newspaper.
We (my younger sister was always with me too - 2 1/2 yrs younger) probably would have decided that if we couldn't set him up with something else (like another pile to knock down) then we would play a different game that he couldn't ruin or included him. My baby brother was with me so much that more than one neighbor who lived on that street with us has pics of me hanging him off my hip as I walk around.

But if that's not how the girls relate to him, then I don't know what else you can do other than to physically remove him. I'm sure what they were doing probably seemed to be the most interesting thing to do in the world to him.

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Heffernhyphen

· #13 · Jun 6, 2005

. . . when he threw sand, I would NOT have picked him up. I would have gone to the hurt child and talked about how much it hurts to get sand in her eyes and then tried to get him to help make her feel better. I would have given her the attention. I am working on giving the attention to the victim and trying to get the perpetrator to help make amends. That way, negative behavior is not getting the attention it is aiming for but it is not being ignored either. AND hopefully, it is teaching them about empathy for others.

I love this philosophy, and I'll try to add it to my tool bag. However, I'm sure I'd also have to add an element of punishment for the offender. I hate to say that, since I'm the only one who seems to feel it's called for, but I do. Sometimes, no matter what the kid's needs are or what his intentions were, if he does something just out and out bold and potentially hurtful, he (IMO) needs to suffer some kind of repercusions. It's not okay to show your anger or disappointment by hurting someone else. When you do something that's not okay, you should have the reasonable expectation of logical consequences. In this case, I'm pretty sure I would have said, "If you can't play in the sand nicely, you can't play in the sand at all. You're out for the day."

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lilyka

· #14 · Jun 6, 2005

I disagree that this is just waht little kids do and teh older ones just have to suck it up and let him never getting to have any of thier own fun. If I was a big kid that would make me hate my little brother and resent my mother always putting my little brothers wants above mine.

At 3 1/2 he is perfectly old enough to understand that that is not a nice thing to do. I wouldn't have given him the whole "I am sad" trip but I woul dhave plainly said "you may not wreck thier moutain. They are working hard and it is not fair for you to wreck it. I would have either toted him inside and settled him down, stayed outside and played with him with his own moutian, or given him ways to play nicely with his siaters but stayed with him. But to be completely honest when this sort of thing happens with my youngest i just take her somewhere else so the big ones can play in peace. they are pretty generous with baby gamesbut do deserve some baby free time.

Ruthla

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jun 6, 2005

There were a few reasons I picked him up when he threw the sand:

1) to keep him from throwing sand on Leah
2) to keep him from completely ruining the sand mountain that he'd only partially messed up at that point
3) to "punish" him, and not his sisters- leaving him in the sandbox and ignoring him would have meant letting him play after throwing the sand.

I TRIED to remove him from the sandbox and keep him inside the rest of the day. I carried him all the way to the house, and then he went back outside. How exactly am I supposed to keep him inside?? Brute force isn't going to work- he's got more stamina than I do. Besides, I don't WANT to use brute force on my child.

cmb123

· #16 · Jun 6, 2005

Have ya tried duct tape and velcro?

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kavamamakava

· #17 · Jun 6, 2005

When Skanda gets overwhelmed and wild, I usually walk him to his room. We talk for a little and then I leave and close the door but not all the way and he comes out when he's ready. Sometimes he comes out right away. If he has calmed down enough, he can stay. If he comes out and resumes making a whirlwind of the house, we go back to his room. I don't think you lose anything by letting him back out as long as he understands how to behave. And if he destroys things again, you bring him back in.

Piglet68

· #18 · Jun 6, 2005

2

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilyka
I would have either toted him inside and settled him down, stayed outside and played with him with his own moutian, or given him ways to play nicely with his siaters but stayed with him.

Yup. I also agree that the older kids deserve some time to play "their way". While it's true that the 3.5 year old was basically just being a 3.5 year old, I think it's way too much responsibility for the other kids to have to deal with it. I mean hell, most parents can't deal with it, lol. Look at how much effort we put into figuring out how to handle these things best? Besides, I figure that if you leave kids to sort it out on their own, what happens is the one with the most power wins. That isn't the dynamic I'm looking for.

And....yes, it's time for Piglet - devoted disciple of Alfie - to respond to yet another post mentioning punishment.

(oh, stop your groaning...I need to keep challenging myself, lol).

Quote:

I am working on giving the attention to the victim and trying to get the perpetrator to help make amends. That way, negative behavior is not getting the attention it is aiming for but it is not being ignored either. AND hopefully, it is teaching them about empathy for others.

I worry that this tactic is just felt by the child to be punishing them by showering your affection on the other sib right in front of him. He might feel resentful of his sisters while his concerns (and I'm pretty sure he has them, and they are important to him, even if to nobody else) are being ignored. So I'm not sure this is going to teach empathy.

Quote:

Sometimes, no matter what the kid's needs are or what his intentions were, if he does something just out and out bold and potentially hurtful, he (IMO) needs to suffer some kind of repercusions.

Why?

Quote:

When you do something that's not okay, you should have the reasonable expectation of logical consequences.

Again, why? Are we teaching the child that you shouldn't throw sand because it might hurt people? Or, instead, is the message that you shouldn't throw sand because someone bigger than you will drag you off?

Hey, just being thought-provoking.

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famousmockngbrd

· #19 · Jun 6, 2005

:

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maya44

· #20 · Jun 6, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chanley
Second, when he threw sand, I would NOT have picked him up. I would have gone to the hurt child and talked about how much it hurts to get sand in her eyes and then tried to get him to help make her feel better. I would have given her the attention. I am working on giving the attention to the victim and trying to get the perpetrator to help make amends. That way, negative behavior is not getting the attention it is aiming for but it is not being ignored either. AND hopefully, it is teaching them about empathy for others.

I know this is the advice of Siblings Without Rivalry, BUT in my years of parenting 3 siblilings there is nothing in the world that creates more hard feelings between siblings than doing just this.

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