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Discussion Starter #1
...I think the baby is really bothered by the doppler.<br><br>
I went in for my appt yesterday; midwife took out the doppler as usual. And also as usual, the baby went crazy with movement went she put the doppler on my belly. Kept moving away from the wand.<br><br>
I've heard that the sound of the doppler in the womb is louder than a jack hammer. If that's true, why I am I subjecting my baby to it?<br><br>
I really like my midwives, but I'm starting to wonder why I go. She listens on the doppler, asks me if I have any questions, and then I leave. ((shrugs)) Makes me want a homebirth even more... if I could find a homebirth midwife who'd accept me. (Not that I blame them -- my medical history ain't pretty.)<br><br>
Anyways, I'm babbling. I guess I'm just worried that the doppler makes the baby uncomfortable. Anyone else feel that way? Should I be concerned? And do you think it's weird to tell the midwife I don't want to use it anymore?<br><br>
Thanks for listening.
 

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I have the same concerns that you do about the doppler. I've heard the doppler and the u/s both cause extreme discomfort to the fetus. Yet I am too scared to stop. It's selfish, I suppose. I'm somehwat ashamed.<br><br>
At least I didn't rent one this time like we did with our first, despite the fact we had a recent m/c.
 

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I was thinking the same thing myself at my appointment the other day. Dh had to book time off work, we loaded the kids in the van, with construction it took us about 45 mins to get there. I peed on a strip and weighed myself (which I could do at home, I think, since I think you can buy those strips for home use). She asked about my vericose veins, and gave me advice from a book I've already read. Took my blood pressure, felt my fundus -- which I have been doing at home, and came to the same conclusion as she did: it's fine -- and tried to listen with the fetoscope, even though we were both pretty sure she wouldn't be able to hear anything... but I've been having kicks, so I wasn't too worried that there wasn't a heartbeat. I did ask a question about moving out of their catchment area, but that could have been done over the phone. The only really useful thing I was looking forward to was her writing a prescription for support stockings, but she didn't, and I forgot to ask before the end of the appointment. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> Then, because my dh takes my kids to a park or restaurant during my appointment and we have no cell phone, I have to wait for him to pick me up after. But it's a hassle to find parking (the office is in downtown Toronto), pay for parking, unload three kids, come up and get me, and get everyone back in the van, so I stand outside on the sidewalk and watch for him... right next to a busy road and beside a coffee shop, where someone is almost always smoking out front. But the mws are regulated by the gov't and, apparently, I have to go in for a check up every month. I brought up the idea of coming in less frequently with my last mw, and it was like I suggested that I fly to the moon to give birth or something. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue"><br><br>
You can ask her not to use the doppler -- it's not weird at all. She might not like it, but it's your right to refuse. Well, maybe I shouldn't say it's not weird; it's not common, but I don't think that makes it weird <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> When I was with a mw group who serviced a Mennonite community, they always had the fetoscope right with the doppler, and didn't blink an eye about using it. With this mw group, the mw who I'll be birthing with took it in stride with everything else I said I wanted, but she came across to me as a bit more of a radical, lol -- she was the one giving me tips for catching the baby myself if I ended up in the hospital/with another mw for the birth. With the mw I have for now, she was quite surprised, and said she had never had anyone not want the doppler, but she was supportive, and went right to the fetoscope at this appointment.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Don't be ashamed, Julie. I rented one last time too. After two miscarriages, I was freaking out all the time that the baby had died. And if you think of it this way: maybe a few moments of discomfort for the baby are better than the constant stress of worrying s/he's ok?<br><br>
Brisen, sorry for my ignorance... but can you tell me about the fetoscope? I'm not familiar with that.<br><br>
I'm thinking that as movement increases, I'm just going to say no more doppler. That will probably be by the next appt anyway. These midwives are pretty cool... I'm thinking they'll let me be about it. But dang, I hate the long waits at the clinic when the appt amounts to nothing.<br><br>
Thanks for making me feel less crazy, ladies!
 

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I have wondered about the doppler as well. For now, we have used it but as soon as she can ear the heartbeat with the fetoscope we will stop.<br><br>
I find it sad that some midwives either by choice or by law, are conforming to the medical model.<br><br>
My midwife spends alot of time with me talking about nutrition, how I am feeling and how the kids are adjusting.
 

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I often think this too~~ my Babe was really active and busy on wed. when we heard the movenment and heartbeat via doppler, I can't help but believe that it is loud and disruptive but I have to admit, after 2 losses it is so incredibly encouraging to hear that <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/heartbeat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="heartbeat">.<br>
Now that I am beginning to feel so much movmnet with such regularity (for my own peace of mind)<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> , and if I asked, my m/w would respect my wishes to pass on the doppler and I probably will.<br>
That said, I love visiting with my m/w, she simply rocks <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">.
 

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I've opted not to use a doppler for this (my first) pregnancy because a)I don't think it's necessary and b)yes, those waves affect babies and bother them. I'm a midwifery student and I doppler dozens of babies and I always get the feeling they want to get away fast! (plus doppler is so much stronger a wave than ultrasound - 2 min of doppler = 1 h ultrasound!).<br>
Anyway, my midwife is one of my profs and of course, I picked her for her philosophies and she is completely on-board with my decision.<br>
At our appointments she checks fundus, BP and urine (I could do all these things on my own, but it's so nice to sit back and let someone else gently care for you in that way - you know, like I could make my own sandwich, but it's wonderful when someone brings you one on a plate) and we talk about birth and expectations and good books to read and what's going on in my life. . . and probably other topics not so relevant to the appt. . .<br>
I love my appointments!<br><br>
Towards the end of my pregnancy I'm moving back home (to Canada, in NZ currently) and I'll have a mw there. I fully expect that my care will carry on however I decide is best, I'm confident, very informed and know the flaws of regulated midwifery well enough to navigate them without too much anxiety.<br><br>
But yeah, I understand that it's great to hear the heartbeat (really, sometimes I get teary-eyed hearing other peoples!) but for me, there is enough self-awareness to be awed without the mechanical interference into my intimate relationship with little babe.<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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my OB doesn't use a doppler at all, he said the same thing about the doppler energy being so much stronger than an u/s. he does a quick u/s at every appt to check heartbeat, he also said it was fine to refuse even that if I wanted.<br><br>
that said, I wouldn't object to 30 secs of doppler every month or whatever, even if it does bother the baby a bit it is over very quickly. I know people who have rented them though and listen for 10 minutes or more every day, that is way beyond my comfort level.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>durafemina</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7976731"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">2 min of doppler = 1 h ultrasound!).</div>
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Would you kindly cite your reference for this statement? Thank you.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>bygones75</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7966375"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Brisen, sorry for my ignorance... but can you tell me about the fetoscope? I'm not familiar with that.</div>
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A fetoscope is basically a stethoscope designed for listening to the baby's heart. In the ones that I have seen, the end that picks up sound is much bigger than a stethoscope -- about 4 times the surface area. It takes much longer to be able to hear the hb with them -- I think about 20 weeks or so is the earliest, and sometimes later. I was 16 wks and she couldn't hear it.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>durafemina</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Towards the end of my pregnancy I'm moving back home (to Canada, in NZ currently) and I'll have a mw there. I fully expect that my care will carry on however I decide is best, I'm confident, very informed and know the flaws of regulated midwifery well enough to navigate them without too much anxiety.</div>
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I'm in Ontario; if you have any navigation tips for me, I'm all ears! I just barely avoided a hospital birth with my last, who was born just a few hours past the 37 week mark. I have no idea how accurate my date was; I was nursing at the time and conceived her a few months after a miscarriage, and my cycles were whacky -- they varied by about 10 days in length -- so we just took the average. I thought about having an u/s with that preg just to get an accurate date and avoid the possibility of a hospital birth simply because my dates were off, but that felt like I was going against what I felt was best for the pg for something that might not be an issue in the end. But it was frustrating that they just had to pick a date, and it didn't occur to me at the beginning to err on the side of caution when giving my lmp.<br><br>
I just hope this baby isn't breech... this will be baby #4 for me, and I've heard that the more you have, the greater your chance is for breech. I don't want to end up in a hospital with a breech baby, but the mw is out with a breech. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> I think I would call my UCing friend and have her come for the birth & do it at home.<br><br>
My other problem with regulated midwifery has been getting a midwife. I've been on a waiting list more than once; luckily, I think they put women who have had a midwife in ON at the top of the waiting lists. Which is good for me, but sucks for the women who want a mw and haven't had one yet, who get put at the bottom of the list. It seems to wax and wane, though -- sometimes it seems like they get filled up fast and I hear from a bunch of women who wanted a mw that they couldn't get one, and sometimes I hear that it's no problem getting in with one or even switching to another practise during your pg, because there is room everywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks, Brisen. I'll be 20 weeks at my next appt, so the timing is good.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>knowerofnada</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7977067"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Would you kindly cite your reference for this statement? Thank you.</div>
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There is a book -- I *think* it is the Thinking Woman's Guide to Pregnancy (or maybe Childbirth?) -- which seems to be the only source I have heard for sure for this statistic. I wondered about it too, a while ago, and tried googling and asking here. It was the only reference I could find, though I didn't look at the actual book, someone just told me. So I don't know where the author got her numbers from.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Brisen</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7977112"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There is a book -- I *think* it is the Thinking Woman's Guide to Pregnancy (or maybe Childbirth?) -- which seems to be the only source I have heard for sure for this statistic.</div>
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That's Henci Goer. I lent my copy out, but she's very good about citing sources. Shouldn't be hard to find.
 

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Well, I don't put much weight in such an outlandish-sounding statement without a full reference. No offense. I already agreed that the doppler prolly makes the baby uncomfortable, but this statement nonetheless sounds very exaggerated.
 

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It's completely TRUE: 1 min of doppler = 35 min of u/s. Ergo, 2 min = 1 hour.<br><br>
Source is <i>Obstetric Myths Vs. Research Realities</i>, by Henci Goer. A fascinating book, if a little dense with info.
 

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Oops, I have the wrong source. It's from <i>Understanding Diagnostic Tests in the Childbearing Year</i>.<br><br>
Here's some info from Gentlebirth.org<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The information about 1 min of Doppler = 35 min of ultrasound is in Anne Frye's Holistic Midwifery and her Understanding Diagnostic Tests in the Childbearing Year. This is because the waves used in a Doppler are continuous while the ones from an imaging ultrasound are pulsed. Electronic fetal monitors are continuous Doppler.</td>
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If you have other concerns about the validity of those statements, I'd strongly encourage you to go to the Birth Professionals forum and ask over there.<br><br>
I've had one 5-min u/s with this pregnancy, and I've asked my mw to listen using a fetoscope til the labor itself, because most mw's use doppler to hear better during labor. I'd prefer no doppler whatsoever.
 

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Doppler Ultrasound quoted from The Natural Pregnancy Book by Aviva Jill Romm on page 47<br><br>
"Many women enjoy hearing their baby's heartbeat amplified, but do not question the safety of the doppler. In fact, the doppler has not been conclusively proven safe for use in pregnancy; not enough-term evidence is available. Nor has the doppler been proven more effective or accurate in assessing fetal heart tones than the completely benign use of the fetoscope, a fetal stethoscope. One minute of exposure to doppler has been estimated as equivalent to thirty-five minutes of imaging ultrasound exposure."
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Hippiemommie</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7989724"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Doppler Ultrasound quoted from The Natural Pregnancy Book by Aviva Jill Romm on page 47<br><br>
"Many women enjoy hearing their baby's heartbeat amplified, but do not question the safety of the doppler. In fact, the doppler has not been conclusively proven safe for use in pregnancy; not enough-term evidence is available. Nor has the doppler been proven more effective or accurate in assessing fetal heart tones than the completely benign use of the fetoscope, a fetal stethoscope. One minute of exposure to doppler has been estimated as equivalent to thirty-five minutes of imaging ultrasound exposure."</div>
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That statement though by the author needs to be referenced. You can't just write a statement and then say "it's fact because I say so". I'd like to see some kind of study or something backing this claim up.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">That statement though by the author needs to be referenced. You can't just write a statement and then say "it's fact because I say so". I'd like to see some kind of study or something backing this claim up.</td>
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The references I listed from Anne Frye aren't good enough for you? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch">
 
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