I "don't let" my child hit me/swear/act rudely, etc.

Wow. We too are dealing with some violent behaviours with our son, who is the same age as your daughter. So I am really hoping from some words of wisdom from the more experienced GD mommies here.

I have found that I cannot deal with his hitting me or younger sister. Right now when he starts tantruming that badly he goes to his room. Mostly he will go there when led by the hand, a couple of times I have literally carried him up the stairs and dumped him on his bed. I don't care if he totally trashes his room, slams the door, or hits things -- that I totally ignore. If he comes out before he is calm, he goes back one way or the other. I can't let him him me or other children or I will hit back. Its just not in me to take that sort of abuse -- perhaps because I had to for years at the hands of my father. Luckily for me he does not generally do this in public.

I finally decided that one of my core values that I want my children to learn is that you don't have to be a victim. If I take his physical abuse, then I am training him and, perhaps more disturbingly, my DD that you have to take abuse from other people. Therefore, I do whatever I have to to protect myself first, short of hurting him. If he's being mild, then I walk away and refuse to deal with him until he is calm, gentle and polite. If its really bad, then I confine him so he can't hurt anyone.

I have been trying to coach more acceptable behaviours before things escalate. When I know something is coming, and I have pretty much IDed his triggers, then I will ask him to take deep breaths, to talk about how he feels, to walk away before he gets too frustrated. So far this is of limited success. But one of the things that I think I have finally accepted about a gentle approach is that change takes time, sometimes a lot of it. My DH and I are also working really hard at modeling appropriate ways to express anger and frustration, which includes not yelling at the kids when we are angry and frustrated. This is really, really hard right now.

I do believe that a 5 YO should be capable of self control, of compassion and understanding why we don't hurt others. I'm not sure how to get from here to there, but I do believe it is a reasonable goal. I'm hanging on the best I know how until we get there.

And I would love to hear advise from others!

I'm trying to figure out how to word this without sounding judgemental....

Is it possible that she's imitating you/your dh when you/he get angry/argue? If so, she's getting the message that acting that way is okay, even though you're saying that it isn't, and you won't be able to get her to stop until you do.

In any case, I don't think it's normal for a 5.5yo to act the way she's acting. Is/was there some trauma in her life that could be affecting her?

Just so you know, she sounds a lot like me when I was a kid...and I was being severely emotionally abused by my parents (mostly my mother). I'm not implying that you're abusive to her, just saying that (IMO) 5.5yo kids don't come up with all that by themselves. Were you/dh abused as a child? Has she seen violent movies/TV? (Even G-rated Disney movies have violence/scary bit in them.)

I'd strongly suggest family counseling before she gets much older. ...and be as picky as you can be about any therapist/counselor/social worker you see. If any of you consistently leave the persons office feeling bad about yourself, find someone else who can deal with your situation compassionately. (BTDT, and thankfully my Dh didn't like her and wouldn't let me ignore what she was doing to me/us.)

Best of luck. You are all in a tough situation.

Wow mamas, this must be hard to deal with, especially when you sound so patient and kind to your children... I have had to deal with way over the top outbursts from my ds when he was younger but he didn't really go after me physically in such a relentless way...

I do know one mother who has a similar problem with her ds going after her when he is mad (he also goes after other people, too). When he starts this she picks him up, puts her arms around him and tells him that she isn't putting him down until she can trust that he isn't going to hurt anyone. She doesn't say too much to him during this time other than "I know you're angry, that's okay". And she keeps him there until he stops. If he doesn't then she just picks him up again until he won't go after her/other people anymore. I like this for a couple of reasons: she isn't running away from him makking herself a "vicitm" as one pp mentioned and she is still there for him to help him regain his composure and I find he seems to calm down quicker than he did when he used to be sent to his room or other techniques that she has tried with him.

Hope this helps and good luck.

E&A's Mom, thank golly you chimed in, I am so glad there's another one in a similar situation!!! (I mean just because I don't feel so alone - I am sorry you are going through it too!) Now i hope we get some mamas who are PAST this obstacle!!!

pjlioness, certainly dd has learned to rage from her father, who does it often -- we have been fighting a lot, and often in front of the kids -- there is no hitting or anything but it is definitely unhealthy and goes in waves. Until ds was born last October I was the picture of patience and gentleness with dd, but I am not so proud of myself lately. There has been a lot of huge changes in dd's life in the past year (move across ocean from nice town to big city, cramped housing situation, new baby brother, still no good friends her age after 14 months here, to name a few). But while I recognize this is all coming from a deeper place which is slow in healing, we still need to stop the behavior or at least work on saying feelings, even though things may not be perfect. Plenty of kids have problems and DON'T do this. kwim? That's why I want to hear what works for others. Generally dd is a really sweet and insightful child and we have a very attached relationship on which others have commented with admiration. It's true that her behavior ebbs and flows with the state of the marriage but I am trying desperately to find some consistent and effective reaction and treatment for this behavior.

DH will not go to counseling, I would consider it alone with dd, but I don't want her to feel like a "case".

I wish I could hold dd like that but she's really strong and plus I'm often nursing.

Wow, sphinx, you really have your hands full. It sounds awful for you.

I don't have any experience with this level of behaviour. But I have to agree that it doesn't sound within the range of "normal", and I don't mean that your child has some kind of psychological problem...I mean that she has an *issue* somewhere that isn't being resolved. And from the sounds of it, it's not from your lack of trying.

My first thought reading your post is that your child is not communicating. She may be talking, but her "I don't care" words and body language that you describe tells me there is a block here. She cannot "hear" you and cannot respond. I wanted to suggest Active Listening, which is a communication technique. You can read about it in "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen..." by Faber and Mazlish, and also "Parent Effectiveness Training" by Thomas Gordon. Maybe, just maybe, you can peice out what is going on in that head of hers.

The other suggestion is food issues. Many people assume food reactions must be physical: breaking out in hives, problems breathing, etc...but they can also be behavioural. Your DD seems to have a lot of negative energy in her. Have you considered eliminating some foods? Dairy and/or sugar are common source (my BF's son had this problem as a child whenever he ate refined sugars).

Anyways, I hope you find some help. This must be very distressing for you. And your poor DD as well.

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True, there are kids who don't do this, but honestly, it's my theory (in the world according to ME ) that children who are "allowed" to express thier feelings-will. Obviously she is VERY angry at you. She is showing her anger in a very violent way (which you're right, is NOT ok) BUT the good part of all that (again, JMO) is that she trusts you enough to show you her emotions. She knows that she can trust you to love her through this.
That being said, of course the violence needs to stop. Therapy might be really great (with a great therapist). She won't "feel like a case." A therapist can be really helpful in teaching her to recognize her emotions, talk about them, and help her learn new ways to express herself. Even though you may have ideas how to do that, judging from the "rolling her eyes" etc...I doubt any kind of suggestions you offer will be welcomed by DD. KWIM?
My son had some anger issues back in the fall. He was really, really lashing out- I sent him to the school therapist ( I work at the school, and know her really well, and trusted her approach). She was able to work with him in a way I could not. She offered suggestions that he and I could work on together and it's been wonderful.
Hugs to you Mama.

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I feel stupid asking this, but can you clarify the difference? "Issues" are psychological, aren't they? Or do you mean it could have been one or two salient situations she is trying to resolve?

Thanks all for your support & advice. I have tried to apply ideas from How to Talk and Playful Parenting and they have both been really helpful. But nothing has really gotten to the nuts & bolts of it. Maybe in part I haven't been focused enough on following through.

Refined sugar definitely does a number on dd and she did have a piece of chocolate before tonight's major meltdown. Other than that I don't think it's food, because the behavior became more intense in tandem with our move, and we haven't changed our (quite healthy) diet in any significant way. As for the TV/movies, we don't have a TV and she's seen maybe 6 movies in her whole life, so I don't think it's coming from there.

thanks again everybody. I deeply appreciate this support right now.

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Yes, theoretically i agree with this, but practically speaking it is very scary for me when it feels like everything is just completely out of control. Also it doesn't help that dh wants to lay down a firm hand and complains all day how "my way" isn't working, that she is a "spoiled brat" - dh seems to be more concerned with forcing dd to speak to us "with respect" than helping her resolve her problems & meeting her needs. He really takes dd's words personally and sometimes even says he thinks she needs a smack. (but he knows i won't stand for it so he'd never do it.) He knows it's not really the answer but he has absolutely NO patiences and feels at a total loss, as I do. We live in his native culture that believes strongly in controlling children -- repressing kids' feelings is what parents are supposed to do. The idea of respecting children and allowing them to vent their emotions is completely unfathomable here. So I fear I won't find a good therapist, because even the most alternative moms I know think it's ok to hit sometimes, and I don't hear anything about concepts like positive parenting.

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I think you are right; I have one friend whom my dd really loves; she has often been effective in diffusing dd's anger when I cannot.

just an afterthought - isn't it possible that getting a therapist could add to the idea of her parents as weak/victim or impotent in dd's eyes?

Hugs for you! I am one of the posters who said something along the lines of "we just tell our daughter in our family we don't hit..." and etc, so my kid is like this - she is very sensitive and has always been very responsive to talking and our requests. I really think part is AP parenting, and part is innate nature. I used to totally believe in nurture over nature, but now I'm really not sure. I think a lot of personality and response is inborn, and there are things you can do to help mitigate issues, but you don't need to beat up or blame yourself for how you've parented and made a child "this way," as I've seen some poeple do to themselves.

That said, we have had friends whose children sound more closely aligned with yours. They are all very bright, creative kids who we enjoy being around, but who definitely give their parents a bit more of a challenge, and who tend to not respond in the way most parenting books say children "should" respond using GD/AP methods. These are things my friends have done and talked about:
*Using AP/GD books designed for the "high-need" or "spirited" child - there are specifically books by William Sears, Becky Bailey, and Mary Sheedy Kurcinka on the topic. There are others too, by Dobson, but I would avoid those like the plague. Sears had one child who was high-need.
*Their children were tested for behavioral and emotional challenges, to find out exactly where the challenges lie. It doesn't mean that the child needs to end up labelled in a bad way - it's sort of like, what if you had a stomachache all the time, if you found out what was causing it, you could find out how to resolve it - including behavioral, dietary, or environmental modifications. You don't need to feel embarrassed about the stomachache or be ashamed that you've got one. Better to learn now, than later if there are any issues. I had one friend whose daughter would throw really difficult tantrums and was absolutely non responsive, and even quit talking. The mom later found out (age three) that she was on the PDD spectrum. Behavioral therapy helped her a lot, along with dietary changes.
*There are workshops for parents to attend together on parenting challenges and approaches.
*Being consistent and creating routines has also helped many of them, but they do it in a very AP way that ends up being rather calming.
*Take risks and think outside the box regarding discipline techniques
*Finding a school that really sees the child as an individual (alternative schools) or homeschooling, in order to decrease the conflict that sometimes happens when a unique kid goes into a cookie-cutter situation where they're expected to sit still, listen and fill out the worksheet just-so. 'Cos chances are slim that they're gonna feel like doing it...

Good luck. I hope you can find a harmonious way that will lead to a great lifelong relationship between the the members of your family.

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Just want to add - I don't think this is the case. It does show children that when you need help, you know where to find it. If you need gall bladder surgery, you go to the surgeon. If your car is broken, you can take it to the mechanic to get it looked at. Some resourceful parents bring their kids into me (I'm a librarian) and help them learn to ask their questions (how do I find the spider books?) so I can help them help themselves. I think a therapist or child psychologist (who would be able to help with diagnostic issues) works along the same lines - they're a specialist and have seen others in your shoes, and has seen possible causes and solutions. You could be completely self-reliant, but that's a hard place to be, often, when so many resources are around.

One other thought - some AP authors do phone counseling. Jan Hunt does, for example. If you see someone whose books you like a lot (Mary Sheedy Kurcinka, for example), you might see if they will do phone work with you on a short part-time basis.

My ds is less than two, so I don't know about five year olds yet, but just from reading, I was really struck by the obviousness of your dd's behavior. After you explained that your dh gets angry and you both fight in front of the kids and that she's had to deal with major changes in her life, I would be surprised if she didn't act the way she did. At least she's verbal and not hiding it in a deep, unknown place.

If the adults in the house can't control their emotions, then how do you expect a 5.5 yo to be able to?

I'm sorry if I sound judgemental. I'm sure you and your dh are lovely people. But I just think that change has to happen from the parents down. I don't buy the logic of do as I say, not as I do. Right now I think this post is directed at the wrong party. Good luck sorting this out. As I said, I don't have a five yo, so excuse my ignorance.

I only have a minute so forgive my frankness and please don't confuse it for judgement or being mean, just some insights I have as a behavior analyst:

1) Stop fighting in front of your children--this causes them anxiety...anxiety leads to fear...fear leads to anger...
2) Stop fighting where your children can hear you but not see you--see above
3) Be consistent. If staying up to 10pm isn't going to be okay tomorrow it isn't okay today. If it is okay today to have cookies at 5pm then it should be okay tomorrow too. This doesn't mean forever. You are in crisis now and have to get the anxiety level down in your dd. If yelling is not okay, ignore anything that she yells, whisper that when she can speak in an appropriate voice tone you'll be happy to address her needs, then be silent (if you have to leave the room to do this then do so)--inconsistentcy breeds chaos which breeds anxiety and on to anger. By not reinforcing the inappropriate behavior with attention (responding to the yelling), offering her a solution (speaking in an appropriate voice tone), and then allowing her the time and space to get there without interfereing you can avoid a power struggle.
3) Set up a predictable schedule, follow it consistently, inform your dc about any changes or upcoming events well ahead of time with daily reminders. A family meeting first thing in the AM to go over the days events or something less formal like while you are helping DD with dressing/batheing/breakfast--not knowing what is going to happen from minute to minute/hour to hour/day to day causes anxiety which...
4) Give DD choices with limits i.e. do you want to wear this or this, do you want to go to the park or to the store. By controlling the number of choices you retain some "power" and for some children knowing that the adult is in charge and going to handle things is comforting while the independence of the choice doesn't make it a control issue.
5) Reward EVERY positive things she does with a smile, a pleasant acknowledgement (this can be praise or not depending on what you prefer and what you notice works), making statements about enjoying being with her etc. Children want to be liked by their parents not just loved. If she can get attention for "being good" she won't need to act out as often to feel that intense level of attention.

To me all of her behavios sound like typical responses from a child with high anxiety. It sounds like the source of her anxiety is the chaos in her life (I know it may not seem chaotic to you but you have all the real power i.e. ability to move to another place, go places within your community, make plans, begin/end arguments with dh, choose what is served for dinnner etc) and the best way to eliminate that chaos for her is for you to be consistent from how your time is spent, how you communicate, what your expectations are. She needs you to be the mama. She wants that from you. But she is going to fight that at first to see if you mean it. She will push the boundaries you've set up to see if they will break. Not breaking sends her the message that you have things under control and that you aren't expecting her at 5 to make the big decisions.

I strongly recommend you see a counselor. With or without DH and DD. If you are in the states you will have a hard time finding a counselor who will allow you to remain "in session" with DD. (Don't get me started on that). But if you go see a child counselor to get advice and parenting recommendations that could really help you to feel more confident and competent.

I also would recommend you do a google search on "Attachment Disorder" (I know you are probably saying, but we are well attached and that could very well be however your DD's behavior RIGHT NOW is saying that needs some help because she is anxious about her role as a child in your family.) I am also not saying that your DD HAS attachment disorder but I do think some of the things useful in dealing with that can be useful in reattaching a troubled relationship.

From attach.org
"Negative attachment cycle" in family

1. Child engages in negative behaviors which can't be ignored

2. Parent reacts with strong emotion, creating intense but unsatisfying connection

3. Both parent and child distance and connection is severed

Okay, I have to go to sleep now. I hope I was of some help. I'm sorry you are going through this. I AM sure that you are doing the best you can for your family. Moving is the most stressful experience. Add to that not "plugging into" a new community of friends and the stress sky rockets. for you and DD

Jenne

thanks for some of the really constructive analysis and advice. I am doing many, many of those things Jenne and loraeileen (? can't see your name) suggested already (consistency, encouragement & praise, etc) but it is definitely the fighting/tension in the house that keeps her anxious. The problem is DH rages and I don't want to just be silent because 1) often it has to do with clashing discipline techniques and attitudes, and it's a matter of immediate importance to me - defending dd from his scathing words or rough reactions to normal behavior; 2) I don't want my dd to see me being verbally abused without defending myself, if that makes sense. I try to defuse, but DH keeps ranting. And then I too blow up and we are both insensitive and mean to each other. Or I take dd someplace calm and she gets the picture that daddy is the "bad guy", when in actuality we have woven a very complex web and we are both at fault.

Yes, I am very aware that change has to be within the nucleus of the family (the marriage). I am also not surprised so much as overwhelmed by dd's behavior. But I AM tired of the battle, and even though things are improving with DH, dd's behavior doesn't seem to budge much and so I am just trying to learn some measures that have been effective for others. Of course I want a magic easy answer but I know there isn't one. Still, I was hoping...

I'm not in the States and I definitely believe it will be an uphill battle finding a normal therapist who believes in the rights of children.

Gotta go make breakfast.