[NoliMum]

Alright, I know that Fairy Tales are an integral part of Waldorf education. I understand that they carry common symbols and archetypes that are important to a child's subconscious understanding of human nature and the world. I am even charmed by their antiquity, and flowery language.

However, as a modern, feminist woman, I have a problem with these stories. Regardless of the subliminal messages of good v. evil, patience and perseverance, gratitude and "karma," I am really seeing some direct messages that I don't want my daughter to absorb.

1. Sexism, women as objects, inherent feminine weakness, etc.

2. Child abuse

3. Trickery rewarded ("Puss in Boots")

4. Greed and materialism (Every Good Princess is rewarded with treasure and wealth)

5. Beauty and wealth are always requirements for happiness, solutions to problems, and rewards for good behavior

6. Fear and rewards are the motivation for most good deeds (encouraging selfishness)

7. Natural world is dangerous and evil (Almost every story uses the Woods as the Shadow archetype; ie chaos, darkness, etc which must be gotten through and overcome)

8. Marriage to royalty is the ultimate goal and is pursued at any cost.

Again, I understand the the underlying meanings. It is the direct images and messages I am worried about.

If children learn by imitation, why wouldn't they imitate these stories and integrate them into their perceptions of the way life should be? How can we tell the story of Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, The White Deer, etc. and expect our girls to grow into confident women? How will our boys grow to respect them? Will the joy of living simply be lost after too many stories emphasizing the joy of wealth and abundance?

 

[RollerCoasterMama]

Ok, I'm not coming from the point of view of a hard-core Waldorf proponent. This is me, with a literature background and a love of folk-lore.

The things you listed are there in some stories. BUT...there's so much more out there!! I was really lucky to grow up in a home with a full set of the colored fairy books. I read them all the time. Hundreds of stories from around the world. They were fabulous and the values reflected depended on what country the story originated. But I can promise you there were tons of them with strong, clever, heroic women in them. Plain, honest and kind won out over pretty and young and rich. Yes, there were some trixter stories mixed in. But in those hundreds of stories, I grew up believing that I could do and be anything, that justice was the most important thing, and a love of literature and cultures from around the world.

The best gift my dad ever gave me (other than making those and other books available for me and my siblings) was my own set of the Fairy books when I moved out. I fully intend to read to my son from them when he's a bit older.

Maybe if the classic Grimms stories rub you the wrong way, try googling for some multi-cultural collections, or specifically look for some with strong women and get them from the library. I agree that Grimms in itself with no other flavors mixed in can get a little much. Grimms is just one collection of stories. There are tons of others out there!!!!

Good luck!

 

[imbarefoot]

You make some good points mama.

Does anyone have suggestions for better fairy books? 3901sca, do you?

 

[Green Eyes]

Definitely check out Andrew Lang's fairy tale books. There are several books, each in a different color, I remember especially liking the red book.

Disney really messed up the fairy tales, imo. All the points you made regarding what you don't like are emphasized with Disney and he changed the endings of some of the fairy tales. And what's the deal with the mother character dying all the time in his stories, anyway?

 

[Niamh]

It wasn't just Disney that messed up fairy tales, the fairy tales that are most objectionable to me were the most popular ones long before he latched onto them.

I'm going to the library tomorrow and I'll try to find my favorites for you, but off the top of my head, try these two books:

Clever Gretchen and Other Forgotten Folk Tales by Alison Lurie
- you'll probably object to some of the stories in here, but there are a few gems

Wise Women: Folk and Fairy Tales from around the World. Retold and Edited by Suzanne I. Barchers
-my blog post summarizing this one is here: http://unprocessedfamily.blogspot.co...ise-women.html

Our library fairy/folk tale section is soooo big with so many wonderful stories for strong children. Once you get past the 'mainstream' fairy tales, it's hard to swing a stick without hitting a wonderful fairy tale.

Ooh, another one, one of my favorite stories is The Long Haired Girl: A Chinese Legend by Doreen Rappaport. Um, let me go find my synopsis...
here it is - http://unprocessedfamily.blogspot.co...-for-kids.html

 

[mamaUK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh Wise Women: Folk and Fairy Tales from around the World. Retold and Edited by Suzanne I. Barchers -my blog post summarizing this one is here: http://unprocessedfamily.blogspot.co...ise-women.html ]

What age could you start reading these to a little one do you think?
Also, it is completely print or are their any illustrations?
Thanks!

 

[mamaUK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3901sca Ok, I'm not coming from the point of view of a hard-core Waldorf proponent. This is me, with a literature background and a love of folk-lore. The things you listed are there in some stories. BUT...there's so much more out there!! I was really lucky to grow up in a home with a full set of the colored fairy books. I read them all the time. Hundreds of stories from around the world. They were fabulous and the values reflected depended on what country the story originated. But I can promise you there were tons of them with strong, clever, heroic women in them. Plain, honest and kind won out over pretty and young and rich. Yes, there were some trixter stories mixed in. But in those hundreds of stories, I grew up believing that I could do and be anything, that justice was the most important thing, and a love of literature and cultures from around the world. The best gift my dad ever gave me (other than making those and other books available for me and my siblings) was my own set of the Fairy books when I moved out. I fully intend to read to my son from them when he's a bit older. Maybe if the classic Grimms stories rub you the wrong way, try googling for some multi-cultural collections, or specifically look for some with strong women and get them from the library. I agree that Grimms in itself with no other flavors mixed in can get a little much. Grimms is just one collection of stories. There are tons of others out there!!!! Good luck!

I would love to know what books you recommend, I really would like to choose some books for my LO's but I haven't yet as I feel stuck b/c I want the stories to be beautifully told ASWELL as stunning illustrations for my almost four year old girl...I want the illustrations to be as stunning as Sibylle Von Olfers or Elsa Beskow for example..........or just really stunning and magical! Am I asking too much???????????? Or are there books out there that are waiting to be discovered by me and my girls????????????? Hopefully you will have the answer...................................

 

[counterGOPI]

if i remember right 'you are your child's1st teacher' goes into this a bit. hth!

 

[RollerCoasterMama]

The ones I was referring to are the Andrew Lang ones. They'd probably be a bit pricey to get them all but most libraries carry the series. They don't have pictures on every page, but there are beautiful Victorian drawings and a few color plates throughout. As a kid I spent as much time sucked into the pictures as the stories. Dad's version had the color plates, mine just has black-and-white copies of the colored paintings.

I did a quick google and found a website with all of the stories in all of the book!! No illustrations, but you can see which stories you like!!

And to see what I'm talking about with the illustrations, the website provided a link to a gallery of drawings in the book.

I know there are tons of other collections out there. This is just the one I have and love. And you can get just one of the Fairy books at a time. Plus they come up used once in a while (that's how my dad got his original set---he haunted a used book store and came home with amazing treasures for us all the time!).

 

[mariposita]

Also check out the Enki homeschool curriculum for some great multicultural tales. You can just buy that book alone and it's really wonderful. We stopped using Grimm's in our homeschool because those stories suited us much more.

 

[SageR]

I agree with you on all of your points. This is (yet another!) area of Waldorf where we go our own way.

We skip the Brother's Grimm type stories . I look for folk tales over fairy tales.

This is one I just ordered for reading out loud - From Long Ago and Many Lands. I found it on our Unitarian Universalist booklist.

For those of you wanting really beautiful illustrations maybe something else to keep in mind. My take on the place of these tales in Waldorf is that they not only provide entertainment and perhaps a bit of moral teaching, but that they are a way of continuing/reviving the art of oral storytelling. The point is the tell them, not neccessarily read them. So I'm not bothered by having these books without pictures. My kids have many beautiful picture books, and access to more at the library. I don't feel like they're missing out on anything.

 

[mamaUK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageR I agree with you on all of your points. This is (yet another!) area of Waldorf where we go our own way. We skip the Brother's Grimm type stories . I look for folk tales over fairy tales. This is one I just ordered for reading out loud - From Long Ago and Many Lands. I found it on our Unitarian Universalist booklist. For those of you wanting really beautiful illustrations maybe something else to keep in mind. My take on the place of these tales in Waldorf is that they not only provide entertainment and perhaps a bit of moral teaching, but that they are a way of continuing/reviving the art of oral storytelling. The point is the tell them, not neccessarily read them. So I'm not bothered by having these books without pictures. My kids have many beautiful picture books, and access to more at the library. I don't feel like they're missing out on anything.

I feel that at the age my older daughter is at the moment (almost four) she needs a good mix of stories, both oral and with the stunning illustrations. Our oral story telling in our house comes mostly from stories of when I was a little girl, she loves to hear stories from my own childhood. My LO pours over books with beautiful illustraitions during her free play, she is literally drinking them in. So for our family, the illustrations are extremely important, the beauty and quality of them. I can only imagine what is going through her imagination when she is absorbing these images. I guess one of the reasons she enjoys the illustrations so much is b/c she is practically 99% TV free.
I too just can't resist a book with absolutely stunning illustrations. One of my favourite books is 'Princess in the forest' by Sibylle Von Olfers. It literally took my breath away.
We are a Waldorf inspired family rather than strictly Waldorf so we cherry pick what is right for our family rather than adhere to any strict rules.

 

[karne]

Fairy Tales by Berlie Doherty and Jane Ray (Paperback - Sep 2, 2002)

This is an edition of classic fairy tales that I highly reccomend, if you can find it, because the beautiful illustrations are truly multi-cultural. This is definitely not the fair-haired princess and prince that are so often portrayed. We were led to this particular book when a friend of my dd's became really upset and confused about why no one in the fairy tale books looked like him.

Another interesting option are the books Tales from Grimm, and More Tales from Grimm, both translated and illustrated by Wanda Gag. She has a wonderful quality to her translations from the german, they are childlike, but not immature, and they lack the gore and violence of the original Grimm's. I read these stories to my kids when they were young, and we re-read them together as they get older. I love them. I second the pp's who say explore tales outside of the traditional Grimm's.

In grad school, when we studied Bettelheim, we spent a long time deconstructing some of the grimm's tales, and understanding some of the more adult and unconscious themes that underpin the stories. For that reason I never took to the idea that the tales were thoroughly "nourishing" for children. You have to use your common sense about what's appropriate and what fits your value system.

 

[RollerCoasterMama]

I'm loving the additional story recomendations! This is a really fun discussion! (Wanna make a lit major geeky happy? Talk about the books that got her started...I was all about folk-tales growing up!)

I agree with both PPs...I think rich illustrations and oral story telling are both really valuable tools. I've always loooooved getting lost in illustrations. It adds an extra layer.

At the same time, with my own little DS, I'm re-learning oral story telling. I had to brush up on a couple of basic stories (3 pigs, 3 bears, 3 goats) and just do one at a time for a few weeks until it's old hat. Lately, he's been helping me tell the 3 bears. He's tickled pink to tell it "togedder!". We sing songs together all the time, so this felt like a natural extension. I still tell and read him stories, but it feels right to help him learn to tell stories too!

Most of our story time is in bed due to my schedule, but I've noticed that the times when I use my hands as sort of puppets and mime climbing the house/mountain/bridge/etc he really gets into the story. The first time I really got into it and gave it a try, I finished, and he turned to me and said "That was a good story!" (to the story he'd heard for weeks...just a few more details and the actions to follow). Suddenly the puppet show during circle time thing makes a whole lot of sense! Wish we had more time for things like that during the week.

 

[bendingbirch]

Hi there,
Just my two cents here, please do take what resonates with you....I think we have to be careful to "know in our heads" about the whole archetypal imagery thing, but then still apply our "adult stuff" to it. I had a friend who was very uncomfortable with the "Evil" parts of fairy tales, the not nice parts, and what i told her was that to me, the fairy tales are ETERNALLY OPTIMISTIC. The Norse myths, for example, the Gods destroy themselves, (fourth grade Waldorf curriculum). The fairy tales, the protagonist can overcome anything and everything in a fantastical way. I think if anything, we have to read the fairy tales and see what ones resonate with us, in our hearts, and these are the tales we tell our children.. Don't tell the ones you are uncomfortable with! Tales like "Hut in the Forest" and "Spindle, SHuttle, Needle" are great tales without a lot of the dicier elements....THey would be great for a six year old. How old is your child? I would check out lots of tales from other cultures, but also sit with a copy of the Pantheon version of Grimm tales and read them and see which ones resonate with you and then go with those. THere are so many of them I guarantee you will find something to like! If your child is young, some of those very repetitive tales, Chicken Licken and The Gingerbread Man and all of those wonderful tales.

I wrote a post on my blog regarding fairy tales and wanted to share with you here, maybe it will help you out:
"Some of these quotes may get you thinking about this subject:

"The human soul has an inextinguishable need to have the substance of fairy tales flow through its veins, just as the body needs to have nourishing substances circulate through it." -Rudolf Steiner

"We can interpret the fairy tales-to return to these-as answers to the ultimate questions about our outer and inner needs." -An Overview of the Waldorf Kindergarten, page 48.

"Children who are ready for fairy tales instinctively know that these stories are not literally true on the physical plane, but are true pictures of inner events and circumstances, of inner challenges and forces which must be faced and overcome. Thus, they sense that beauty and ugliness refer to inner qualities, not external appearance." -In A Nutshell: Dialogues with Parents At Acorn Hill, Nancy Foster, page 47.

"In regard to the issue of violence and evil, it is a reality that children, and all of us, do encounter challenges and bad or frightening experiences in life. The fairy tales, in which such experiences are redeemed in various ways according to the particular story, help to give children the trust that challenges can be overcome and that we are not powerless." -In A Nutshell: Dialogues With Parents At Acorn Hill, Nancy Foster, page 48.

"That is the strength of fairy tales. They are filled with promise. The weak can be strong; evil can be turned to good; the ugly can become beautiful; Cinderella can become a princess, the frog a prince. Every human being can rise to his true stature. Even the smallest child can realize this and rejoice at future victories." -An Overview of the Waldorf Kindergarten, page 54.

So, in short, we tell stories orally because once we, the parent, pick a story and are with the story for three days before we tell it, we put ourselves into it when we tell it to our children. That warmth from us is there, and there is no book that can create that. The children then create the pictures of these archtypal images in their heads. They realize truth and beauty and goodness come from people and life, not just in books. This sets the stage for the parent being an Authority in life, a Keeper of Knowledge, not just that knowledge comes from books. The oral storytelling provides a rich context for language and rhyme that is important in later reading.

The images within the fairy tale tell the story of all people, of all generations and of all times. It fulfills essential qualities within the child's soul. Fairy tales are also a vital part of the moral education of a child. For more interesting insights into fairy tales and the role they fulfill for all of us, please do read Bruno Bettelhem's "The Uses of Enchantment: The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales."

I love what Mr. Bettelham says on page 45 of his book: "Myths and fairy tales both answer the eternal questions: What is the world really like? How am I to live my life in it? How can I truly be myself? The answers given by myths are definite, while the fairy tale is suggestive." He goes on to say on page 47," The child asks himself: "Who am I? Where did I come from? How did the world come into being? Who created man and all the animals? What is the purpose of life? True, he ponders these vital questions not in the abstract, but mainly as they pertain to him. He worries not whether there is justice for individual man, but whether he will be treated justly. He wonders who or what projects him into adversity, and what can prevent this from happening to him. Are there benevolent powers in addition to his parents? Are his parents benevolent powers? How should he form himself, and why? ….Fairy tales provide answers to these pressing questions, many of which the child becomes aware of only as he follows these stories."

Mr. Bettelhem also says in his book, "From an adult point of view and in terms of modern science, the answers which fairy tales offer are fantastic rather than true. As a matter of fact, these solutions seem so incorrect to many adults - who have become estranged from the ways in which young people experience the world - that they object to exposing children to such "false" information. However, realistic explanations are usually incomprehensible to children, because they lack the abstract understanding required to make sense of them. While giving a scientifically correct answer makes adults think they have clarified things for the child, such explanations leave the young child confused, overpowered and intellectually defeated."

Great thoughts to ponder, but again, I think fairy tales almost live more and resonate more in our hearts than our heads. It is a question of picking the right tales, the ones that speak to you. Those are the ones that will be the most alive for your child. And Remembering that good always wins in the fairy tales - very reassuring. Just picking the right tales for the right age is important though. I love "Longshanks, Girth and Keen" a Hungarian (??) tale, but it is for older kids. If you have younger children you need different tales then the ones with lots of trials and tribulations...There is an art to picking the right tale, I think...and then memorize it and tell it...

Sorry for the long book!

 

[St. Margaret]

Subbing so I can come back and find these books later....

Thanks!

 

[AFWife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by St. Margaret Subbing so I can come back and find these books later.... Thanks!

Same here! Awesome stuff!!

 

[NoliMum]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply; I've had time to read through the posts and think about them though.

My DD is newly 3 and I'm trying to pick out the simpler tales for her. She's been obsessed with the 3 Little Pigs forever, and we tell it over and over again, and act it out frequently. (We actually have a park nearby with 3 gazebos, one with vines, one that's wooden, and one with bricks- it's the perfect setting!!) We always tell it likes this: The wolf tries to blow each house down, and the pigs aren't eaten, they just escape to the next house in the sequence. At the end, they hear the wolf coming up the roof, put some hot soup over the fire, and he falls in- then jumps out and runs away. We don't bother with the "meet me in the apple orchard at 6 o'clock" part because then it just becomes too complex. I also don't like the idea of the wolf devouring the pigs or dying in the pot of soup. It's just too.... gross for me!

Maybe I am too literal. I keep thinking, "Pigs can't eat wolf soup. It's not in their diet."

3901sca and bendingbirch, you both gave wonderfully insightful responses. I'm still mulling them over.

Mainly I worry about the violence because I do think that children take things literally. I agree that they'll get the "ultimate message" of optimism, good over evil, etc., but I also think they imitate things the way they are presented, and if the stories are violent, that brings violence into the child's world and heart. In Waldorf it is emphasized that the child takes everything in, through all senses, and we must create a filter for them- with soft colors, round corners, etc. So then why do we let the violence of fairy tales permeate this haven? What makes fairy tales a special exception?

 

[RollerCoasterMama]

We simplify too...DS is not even 2-1/2. I've read all the literature that says to let kids hear the original stories and they'll work through it on their own, but it doesn't feel right and I'm going with my gut.

Our three pigs, we do let the wolf eat them, but I make it kind of playful---the same way I would eat DS's toes. Same sound-effect and same levity.

I skip the "meet me in the orchard, etc" part as well. He needs simple stories. If it's complicated, he gets restless and requests a different story or song mid-sentence. (Which is how I learned that Hansel and Gretel and Red Riding Hood are too advanced at this stage!) I wasn't comfortable boiling the wolf to death either! So my compromise is that he climbs down the chimney and the pig opens the pot and traps the wolf (no soup, no fire, he's just stuck). "And the wolf didn't bother them any more."

Even something as simple as the story where the mama goat leaves the kids and the wolf tricks them...I couldn't think of a way to tell that one. I tried and it just didn't sit well. I'm always asking him to be gentle and kind and careful with others...how do I tell a story where the children get eaten, rescued from the belly of the sleeping wolf by being cut out with scissors then the wolf is weighted down with rocks and drowns in the well. In a few years, we can deal with those kind of fables. For now I reserve the right to screen stories as carefully as I would any other media so that they're age-appropriate with good messages.

This parenting thing is complicated!!

 

[bendingbirch]

I believe Bettelham , the author whom I was discussing, either said in his book or would say that the child has an idea of things not always being beautiful in their heads and are many times too afraid or unable to articulate it. They sometimes think grown-ups really do look like giants and they feel as small as little gnomes. Sometimes not everything that happens to them is beautiful in their eyes, even if it doesn't seem like a big deal to us. The fairy tales provide an outlet to deal with these feelings and a sense of relief.
With such a small child, I would definitely focus on the simpler and more repetitive tales such as "The Magic Porridge Pot", "Chicken Licken" "The Gingerbread Man" and simple nature tales. The best stories are also the ones you create - many times we don't start telling fairy tales until children are four or five years of age. Three is a great time for very simple stories that are warm and pleasant and where not much happens.
Hope that helps