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I need a little GD support (a little long)

681 Views 14 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  bellona, 
Q
I need the support of intelligent gentle mothers.

I've been on another board for about 2 ½ years starting when I was first pregnant. I have made some friends and generally enjoy the company of mothers with children the same age as mine. I really do like most of the women and I don't want to leave. However they are very mainstream and it makes me a little crazy sometimes. For the most part I don't say anything, they have their ways and I have mine. I'm not there to make trouble.

The other day there was a conversation about spanking. I already knew some of them spank no surprise there. I mostly stayed out of it except to say I don't spank and I don't agree with it. A few others posted the same. But then a few women started reveling thing that really bothered me. They were bragging about their paddles and making jokes, even posting pictures of the paddles they used. I was really upset by it but didn't say anything; I really didn't want to start a fight. But then one woman started talking about how much she liked the Pearls and how wonderful there advice was. She said how you have to be cheerful while you're switching your kids. I nearly died. Then she starts giving the original poster advice on how to smack her INFANT (like 2 months old) daughter for reaching for things like books. I simply could not stay silent anymore; I was so disturbed by her post. I worded my post so carefully but I guess I couldn't hide my disgust because she freaked out on me. She said I was sick because I implied she enjoyed beating her children. The question I had asked her was "If your really cheerful won't your children think you're enjoying it?" I also calmly said hitting children for being curious would not help them developmentally. I really underplayed my feelings because I was trying to have a rational conversation about it. I later added I didn't think hiding anger behind a creepy mask of pleasantness was a good idea because anger is a real and valid emotion and pretending you weren't angry wasn't going to help a child learn to deal with anger. Apparently that just helped prove what a sicko I am.

Then the other one let in on me. So I asked her about the paddle (well wooden spoon really.) She had said she used the wooden spoon because she wanted her children to fear the spoon not her. I carefully said I thought that may be a cop-out, (spoons don't spank children; people spank children kind of thing.) So now I'm calling her a bad mother and I'm full of crap.

This whole thing gave me so much anxiety. I really tried to choose my word carefully so as not to offend, but come on, they sure didn't care that their paddling and switching offended me. No one backed me up and I ended up dropping it. I'm not sorry for anything I said I was way nicer then I wanted to be. I just need a little reminder that I'm not some crazy off the wall hippie. Please mama's give me a little support.

I would like a little advice too. I'm not gonna go back and bring it up again but for future reference what do I say to this pro-spanking argument. I heard it from a lot of the woman not just the Pearl loving, paddle brandishers.

"When a child touches a hot stove they learn thru pain not to do it again. Children learn thru the pain of a smack or swat (action/reaction principal) not to do whatever it is they were doing."

That's an example of the argument though it took many similar forms.

I found myself saying a lot "I don't care if spanking "works" (I don't think it does) hitting children is wrong, and yes I'll spend ½ a hour reasoning with my child if that's what it takes because I want him to lean conflict resolution without violence.

The only good argument I heard was I have one child and they have three so what do I know. Any help with that one?

Thank for reading all this and for any support or advice you can give me.

Rachel
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M
I am sorry you are having a rough time over this! It sounds tough. I am glad you spoke up, and I admire the gentleness and the tactfulness with which you did. You should not loose sleep over this woman's reaction. Your words no doubt stand out as a beacon of light and sanity compared to her craziness. I have no doubt that your words planted important seeds of thought and wisdom. You just have no way to know what the impact will be.

Quote:
The only good argument I heard was I have one child and they have three so what do I know. Any help with that one?
No matter what your situation, people will find a way to make out that it is easier than their own, and therefore justifies the way they parent. Its a frustrating argument. If its not the number of children, then it will be the age of your children, or your employment status, or the amount of help that you have, or how much money you make, or whether or not your kids are in school, or if they have special needs or not. You will even hear, "Yeah -- well you just got lucky because you have an easy kid." The truth of the matter is that many of us who practise GD *are* privelaged in some way or another, and that having resources and support makes it easier to GD. I find it is best not to dodge this truth. "Yes, I am grateful for the ways in which my life makes it simpler to be a gentle parent. I have no doubt that having 3 children is a challenge, and that I would make more mistakes and have fewer resources in your shoes." This is true, and it earns trust to admit it. You validate their position. And then, "I hope to remain true to my convictions whatever my circumstances. Its important to me that I overcome my own challenges and limitations so that my life circumstances do not harm my children."
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Q
Thank you for your kind and wise words. You have made me feel so much better. Thanks again.
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B
Could you find some anti-spanking articles and post the links for these other mothers to read? I don't know that it would help, but there's always a chance. In my experience, other parents get very defensive if I do something they don't that requires effort, such as nursing, feeding healthy foods, GDing. That's why they snap back with, "Well try that with more than one kid." I know, as you probably do, that having another child is not going to change the fundamental principals by which I live my life.

These people sound crazy. I'm sorry you had to hear all their comments. The thing about disciplining babies for exploring is pretty disturbing.
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M
FWIW- I have gotten to be a better and better parent in my view (more gd) as each child has come along, we've moved 2000 miles away from all family and friends, Dh has begun making LESS money. AND, most everyone agrees Ezra can be a handful. That Phaedra is a handful in her own right is a secret at home thing.


Those arguments are bunk. GD comes through true commitment and meditation (prayer), and faith in this mighty creation (whoever did it). I am not religious so I do not have the "language" to describe what I am trying to say very well, so forgive me. I believe if one truly trusts in a greater being, one should trust that that greater being got something right, and there just isn't anything I know of more right than children. You are not some wacko hippy; you are a women standing in awe of creation and are treating "it" with the reverance it deserves.
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L
Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn'sMommy
I
The only good argument I heard was I have one child and they have three so what do I know. Any help with that one?
Rachel
I have twins and I would think that it IS easier to do GD with one child. I'm still doing GD to the very best of my ability. It's not the same GD as a single baby/child would have and it is HARD!!! But I want what's best for my children's emotional heath and growth, so I do it. I just can't imagine choosing to do something that causes pain.

My life is totally different than the other mamas with one baby and they can't really understand the details of my life with two. Just getting us out the door is a feat that they don't get. Still though I'm open to what they have to say.
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The4OfUs
Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn'sMommy
"When a child touches a hot stove they learn thru pain not to do it again. Children learn thru the pain of a smack or swat (action/reaction principal) not to do whatever it is they were doing."
I would debunk this one two ways....
1. Your child doesn't believe that the stove loves him/her and would not get confused that a stove that is supposed to love him/her would also purposely and intentionally hurt him/her.

2. "Children learn through the pain of a smack/swat (action/reaction principle) not to do whatever it is they were doing..."
...because they're afraid of mommy/daddy hitting them. (Instead of a real reason why that they can internalize and understand...)
and/or
...unless no one is around, and then they will probably do it if they think they won't get caught.

Those two arguments just don't cut it, at all, when held up to real life situations and logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn'sMommy
The only good argument I heard was I have one child and they have three so what do I know. Any help with that one?
And this is rubbish. Of course raising one child is very different than raising two....but if you come from a deeply held belief that violence towards children is WRONG (and that all it teaches them is that if they're bigger than someone else and they want someone to stop doing something, they should hit them) then how could it matter how many kids you have?

"Well, I thought it was wrong to hit one child, but now that I have 3 I don't think it's wrong anymore, I'm going to hit them."
Yeah. That makes sense.

Different parenting techniques are surely needed for 2 kids as opposed to one (and I'm about to find out in a big way!), but it's nonsense to think that just because I'll have two children, I'll all of a sudden think that it's OK to hit them, or think that all of a sudden nothing else besides hitting them (which doesn't work) - will work - it will just be DIFFERENT things that work than what I'm doing right now with one. It's the same thing as "wait until they get teeth, you won't BF anymore" or "wait until they're 6 months, you'll HAVE to let them cry it out then." How silly.

For me, hitting a child is a short-term solution to a long-term problem. It doesn't address potential underlying reasons for the child's actions, and it certainly doesn't attempt to give them any reasons WHY to not do something; so it's a lose-lose situation that only sets kids up to try to get away with things when they think nobody is watching, and doesn't help them understand WHY they shouldn't do something.

As far as I'm concerned, Gentle Discipline is a long term investment in a child's development and retaining their esteem and spirit. Keep doing what you're doing, and don't let other's short-sightedness get you down!
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Q
I am so grateful for you ladies. So many smart things I wish I would have said.

Of course I hold my gentle discipline values very dear, but man did those ladies make me feel like I was the crazy one. (If not hitting children makes me crazy then sanity sucks.) I knew I would find strength and solid reasoning here, thank you. Your words have reminded me that; I can do this, I won't abandon my values, and hitting small defenseless creatures is as stupid and mean as it is wrong. I really needed this.

"Well, I thought it was wrong to hit one child, but now that I have 3 I don't think it's wrong anymore, I'm going to hit them." Yeah. That makes sense.

This is almost exactly what the one with the spoon said to me. She said she didn't believe in spanking until her second child who was apparently more challenging then the first one. (She said stubborn but I don't like that label.) Then her MIL bought her a book (I didn't even want to know what book that was.) and now spanking her children with wooden pampered chef spoons is what works for her family. (I have those spoons and now every time I look at them I feel a little sad.) She said when I had a few more I'd see. That scared me a little, I don't really think I'd abandon my values but I do only have one child, what do I know? Glad to have a little reassurance on that one.

I'm going to commit your wise words to memory, not only to better be able to defend my position, but also to tell myself when I'm faced with gentle discipline challenges in the future.
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mommy68
argghhh!
: I despise the idea of spanking. I was spanked as a child and turned out fine, yes. But I do not agree with it at all with my own children. I hate it when I see people out in stores that spank their children in public or those that drag their kids around by the arm like they are hurting them. I can't stand it!! It's just so inhuman to hit another person just because you are bigger than they are. That's no way to show authority. It shows a lot of weakness IMO.

I could go on forever I guess. But just wanted to let you know you aren't alone.
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P
Quote:

Originally Posted by mommy68
argghhh!
: I despise the idea of spanking. I was spanked as a child and turned out fine, yes. But I do not agree with it at all with my own children. I hate it when I see people out in stores that spank their children in public or those that drag their kids around by the arm like they are hurting them. I can't stand it!! It's just so inhuman to hit another person just because you are bigger than they are. That's no way to show authority. It shows a lot of weakness IMO.

I could go on forever I guess. But just wanted to let you know you aren't alone.
My parents spanked us as children and I turned out fine, I had one brother who has battled drugs for most of his life, one who is chronically depressed and another who withholds all emotions. I love my parents though and think they did the best they knew how. But, when I see parents spanking children in public, I just HOPE they see the look of disgust on my face because in my eyes, they are pathetic and every one of those spankings will change their child's life forever.

To the op, it sounds like you've gotten some great comebacks for the future. And, I'm so sorry they turned on you. Who knew that NOT hitting a child would put you in the minority?
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A
2
Yes I was spanked as a child and suffer from depression on and off [ not at the moment] but I still remember the unfairness of some of the incidence and cringe for that little girl, I was placid and a simple no would have sufficed, instead of the wooden spoon or stick end of a feather duster. Now my brother and sister were raised the same way have no hurt feelings from it and discipline there kids in the same way. They are both born again christians as are my parents I am the only one who rejects those beliefs, so off course they use there bible as proof that this is what God commands of them , so sad.

Just curious Quinn's mother what web site is that, I have no intensions of causing trouble there just curious?
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Think of Winter
Ugh, how awful. I stopped posting on my due date board when my ds was tiny because I was so disturbed by the mainstream stuff on it. CIO, punishment, stuff like that. I just didn't feel a part of it any more. I still lurk every now and then to check on the people I got to know, but I never post.

I really don't know what you can do to get through to die hard spankers. Mamas who are proud of how they spank are not going to be receptive to GD, and are likely to be very defensive. But having your posts in that thread could make a big difference to a family that is trying to figure out if spanking is OK. So if you can keep a thick skin, I think you're doing a good thing. And just because a few mamas on the board are pro-spanking doesn't mean the majority are. You have a right to express your opinion as much as they do!

Hugs to you. At least you can come here to MDC and feel at home.
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Q
I have a happy little update. I was privately contacted by another mom on my board who thanked me for my post. She said her and her husband had decided not to use spanking before her daughter was born because it didn't feel right. She said I gave her a lot of perspective on the subject and helped to renew her commitment to not using corporal discipline.

It makes me so happy that something good came from all that unpleasantness.
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M
Wow! That is better than you could have expected, huh? Please make sure she knows about MDC.
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B
You're a stronger person than I am...I would have stopped going there - quite possibly after a nasty farewell.

I know I'm not very tolerant, but although I started out seeing spanking as a not ideal alternative form of discipline, I've come to see it as just wrong. Parents that spank on a regular basis and brag about it like you are talking about are, in my mind, abusers. I can't stomach them.

I have no friends that spank because when I find out someone spanks I just can't do it anymore.

Btw, my three kids are high energy and determined as well, and we have little-no money...we're both students and dh only works in the summer.

FWIW, I don't mean people on this board offense by saying this. It's truly different if you spank your child, realize it's wrong and strive to stop and restore the damage than if you routinely - sometimes daily - spank and use phrases about how they behave because they know you'll 'beat their butt' if they don't


My sister went to her bf's family's house for Christmas and really liked them until his sister started bragging about how they spank their dd. She approached the subject with him and he basically said that he plans on spanking his future kids, all it takes is one good smack when they start to do something wrong and they won't do it again. She's researching it now to present him with arguments in the case that they get more serious in the future because that is SO not ok with her.

I agree that it's probably easier to gd one child than three or more. But it's not impossible to gd more kids. I've actually gotten better at it with each kid that came along because I better understood what they needed.

I never spanked, but I used timeouts and was a bit strict and demanding with my oldest when he was younger and I just wanna cry when I think about it.

In a way I'd kind of like to go back to the days when I viewed spanking as a different parenting style. I had so many more friends and was much happier with my social life. I know very few people that don't spank, and the ones I know only have babies, not kids that are my children's ages.

I know, I'm not much help, but I just wanetd to vent.
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