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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I work with my middle dd's aunt, who is pregnant. I asked her today if they had a boy, were they planning to circumcise. She said yes. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> She asked me if I had circ'd Timmy, and when I said no, she asked me why. I told her that it was unnecessary, and I couldn't imagine cutting off part of my son's body. Her response? Well, you know, its cleaner. I said, um, but you're taking off the part that keeps it clean??? She looked at me like I was crazy, and said well you have to pull it back to clean under it. I told her you didn't, and she again looked at me like she thought I was crazy. I told her how much skin it would be removing (which shocked her) and that it was no longer recommended by the aap. Her brother (my ex) isn't circ'd, her own dp isn't circ'd. And yet she's going to do it to her son. She says her dp is not circ'd and that's why he wants their son circ'd. I asked her why he hated his foreskin so much, and she said she didn't know. I asked her why he didn't go in and get himself circ'd if he hated it that much, and she said BECAUSE HE'S AFRAID OF THE PAIN!!!! And yet, he will gladly inflict that pain on an infant he's supposed to love! I just don't get it! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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I think that you should show her the circ video and ask why would she want to cause that kind of pain to her own child?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>calicokatt</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I asked her why he didn't go in and get himself circ'd if he hated it that much, and she said BECAUSE HE'S AFRAID OF THE PAIN!!!! And yet, he will gladly inflict that pain on an infant he's supposed to love! I just don't get it! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"></div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>kxsiven</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think that you should show her the circ video and ask why would she want to cause that kind of pain to her own child?</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/yeahthat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="yeah that">:
 

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The circ video is at <a href="http://www.intact.ca" target="_blank">www.intact.ca</a><br><br>
The AAP doesn't recommend circ for cleanliness or medical reasons.<br><br>
I would definitely work on her! Find out why her dp wishes he were circed. Tell her the national rates are 50-50 and dropping every year. There's still time to get to the bottom of her reasons - don't give up!
 

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I have talked to some intact men who have told me about some experiences they had growing up...and some I have talked to have had their kids circ'd because they didn't want their sons teased. I would seriously ask her to talk to her partner about what happened when he was younger that caused him to feel that way. My mom told me that even my father was sensitive (he was intact) when people would say that circumcized was cleaner. My mom said my dad was a "very clean man", but I could tell that there must have been something deeper emotionally for him to decide to have my brother cut as an infant. I think a lot of intact men don't realize that the tides are changing and that their son's are not going to be in the minority like they were decades ago...get what I am saying?<br><br>
It may be that he is the one who needs the information...he needs to understand what he has now, and what was removed. On a foreskin restoration site I met someone a while back who was intact and he said for the first 20 years of his life he didn't appreciate what he had at all...that was UNTIL he read up on circ and realized what circ would have removed from him. Now he is super thankful for his parents! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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Well in practice they do give babys the shot now.. However that doesnt help the issue.<br><br>
I would also bring up the fact that most adult intact men would never have themselves circumcised, therefore there must be something wrong there. As for having to pull it bak to clean it, Daniel did not have to start doing that until he was 11, nearly 12! By that time you can teach proper hygene easily. Make her feel guilty about taking the choice away from the boy, anhd doing something that is forever altering his body in a negative way for the minor benefit of being slightly easier to wash.
 

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Jane, a baby receiving that shot (a dorsal block injection) is rare. Secondly, it's more than one injection and is extremely painful itself. I had one it done to my finger so that the fingertip to the first joint could be put back on. It was horrifically painful, much worse than what I did to remove part of my finger in the first place. I can only imagine how terrible it would feel to a newborn's genitals.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Past_VNE</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Jane, a baby receiving that shot (a dorsal block injection) is rare. Secondly, it's more than one injection and is extremely painful itself. I had one it done to my finger so that the fingertip to the first joint could be put back on. It was horrifically painful, much worse than what I did to remove part of my finger in the first place. I can only imagine how terrible it would feel to a newborn's genitals.</div>
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I dont doubt you one bit.. I wasnt taking up for it either.
 

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I hope you told her that the first 16 weeks of life are the most sensitive time in our lives in regards to pain. I also hope you told her that circumcision on an infant isn't painless.<br>
I also hope you told her how that pain affects bonding and nursing.
 

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How frustrating dealing with this issue is eh? Would you consider sending her some back issues of Mothering, or maybe the circumcision reprint?<br><br>
You can order them here:<br><br><a href="http://www.mothering.com/shop/back_issues.html" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/shop/back_issues.html</a><br><br><a href="http://www.mothering.com/shop/reprints.html" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/shop/reprints.html</a><br><br>
Issue #132 has a great couple of articles on circumcision and breastfeeding too!<br><br>
Good luck to you,<br>
Tara
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
She is just 13 weeks, so I have some time. If I come on too strong, she'll just decide I'm a freak and not listen at all, so I"m going to wait another week or two before I give her anything. In the area where we live, the circumcision rate is WELL under 50%, which I told her. I also brought up that having an open wound in the diaper area isn't such a hot idea, since cleanliness was her first argument. She always tells me I 'research too much' so I have to be careful, or she'll shut me out completely. I'm praying she has a girl.
 

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If cleanliness is an issue, maybe the article about MRSA infection of the circ site will get her attention. Anyone have that info?
 

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There's no documentation on this that I know of, but it's an observation from my very wise mother (6 kids to observe, plus all our friends and kids she knew at church and stuff)... She believes that those who experience higher amounts of 'unnecessary' trauma end up less able to deal with stress and pain later in life. She didn't circ ANY of her 4 sons, but one of the sons was take immediately by helo after birth because they thought he had no anus. The whole experience was very trying and painful for him and he has a VERY difficult time dealing with stressors and pain from any source. Anyway...<br><br>
DEfinitely work on her a little more. She sounds like she just is totally NOT informed and might change her opinions with more info!<br><br>
good luck doing some very good and much needed work!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Maybe get the book on what doctors don;t tell you about circumcision it has mentioning of the research that babies feel more pain than adults do . It's by dr. fleiss
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>PuppyFluffer</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If cleanliness is an issue, maybe the article about MRSA infection of the circ site will get her attention. Anyone have that info?</div>
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Are you referring to the info on the doctorsopposingcircumcision site?<br>
That link is <a href="http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/mrsa.html" target="_blank">http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi.../DOC/mrsa.html</a><br><br>
Yes I would definitely encourage more thought about it on her part.<br><br>
I know that I had a more difficult phase of communication with my DH in the first trimester, not about circ thankfully. With any luck she and her DH can bring reason into this topic.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SJane01</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well in practice they do give babys the shot now.. However that doesnt help the issue.<br><br>
I would also bring up the fact that most adult intact men would never have themselves circumcised, therefore there must be something wrong there. As for having to pull it bak to clean it, Daniel did not have to start doing that until he was 11, nearly 12! By that time you can teach proper hygene easily. Make her feel guilty about taking the choice away from the boy, anhd doing something that is forever altering his body in a negative way for the minor benefit of being slightly easier to wash.</div>
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No they really don't:<br><br>
"The examined records included medical charts for 191 newborn males, 107 of whom were circumcised. Only eight babies were given an analgesic for circumcision pain while the obstetrician performed the procedure. None of the babies received post-circumcision pain medications, and none of the medical charts mentioned discussing circumcision pain with parents."<br><a href="http://my.webmd.com/content/article/95/103212.htm" target="_blank">http://my.webmd.com/content/article/95/103212.htm</a><br><br><a href="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/101/6/e5" target="_blank">http://pediatrics.aappublications.or.../full/101/6/e5</a><br>
Of the respondents, 956 (54%) perform at least one circumcision per month (35% of PEDs; 60% of FPs; 70% of OBs). Of the physicians performing circumcisions, 45% use anesthesia (71% of PEDs; 56% of FPs; 25% of OBs). Of physicians using anesthesia, 85% use dorsal penile nerve block.<br><br>
So, we know around 80% of circ's are done by OBs, of whom 75% use <b>nothing at all</b> and of those that do, 15% are using something inadequate like EMLA or a sugar pacifier alone. This is not acceptable, but it's what happens in the real world, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.<br><b><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br>
MRSA Infection Risk</span></b><br><a href="http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/mrsa.html" target="_blank">http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi.../DOC/mrsa.html</a><br><a href="http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/10/emw301604.htm" target="_blank">http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2.../emw301604.htm</a><br><br><a href="http://www.medpagetoday.com/2005MeetingCoverage/2005AAPMeeting/tb/1899" target="_blank">http://www.medpagetoday.com/2005Meet...eeting/tb/1899</a><br><i>They drew from data on a prospective cohort of all children treated at Texas Children's hospital for S. aureus infections between the summer of 2001 and the spring of 2005. The cases were classified by route of acquisition, either nosocomial or community acquired.</i><br><br><i>Although both MRSA and MSSA occurred predominantly in boys -- about 73% in each group -- after further analysis the investigators observed an infection peak only in boys infected with MRSA.<br><br>
In both groups, putulosis in the groin, upper thigh, and sacral area - areas covered by diapers - was a common presentation. Both groups had invasive infections, including shock, musculoskeletal infections, urinary tract infection, perinephric abscess, bacteremia, and empyema. There was one death, in a child with MRSA.<br><br>
"Interestingly 10 of the 12 invasive infections, including the death, occurred in male infants," Dr. Fortunov said. She and colleagues had no explanation for this.</i><br>
I bet they were <i>all</i> circumcised. Point of infection and entry - the groin/nappy area, and they still don't know what might have caused it.....<br><br><br><a href="http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/3/216" target="_blank">http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/169/3/216</a><br><i>"Acute venous stasis and swelling of the lower abdomen and extremities in an infant after circumcision"<br>
"In a review of the Plastibell device used in about 2000 cases of neonatal circumcision, the incidence of complications was 1.8%, the most frequent being minor infection and hemorrhage. Other complications included a tight Plastibell ring that can cause constriction of the glans penis, irregular skin margin, inadequate skin excision and migration proximally of the Plastibell ring as the glans swells with venous engorgement.6 There have been isolated cases of necrotizing fasciitis,7,8 ruptured bladder,9 retention of urine secondary to glandular prolapse,10,11 and retention of the Plastibell device.12"</i><br>
That's 36 boys with complications.
 
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