[orca]

Thanks everyone for chiming in. I appreciate your responses. I can totally see everyone’s view on this and agree with all of you to a certain extent. I am happy with the outcome of this particular scenario since no one was hurt and my niece was almost immediately calm once she has some space away from all the other cousins. Obviously, I was asking a general sort of question, so I’m going to get general answers, but the specifics that have been speculated upon are these: She was throwing hard objects (dollhouse furniture, barbie type dolls- objects that would hurt) I sat with her on a couch for a moment before it became clear that she needed to rage, not be comforted and I was not going to let her do that with my baby in her path. It should be said, however, that she <b>wanted</b> to be on my lap at first but was irate that she could still <b>see</b> my DS, which set her off again. There were 6 other kids in the playroom so she was the easiest to remove. BIL’s wife was holding SIL’s baby (4 months) and BIL had gone to drop off their teenager at a party. My SIL and her husband (parents of upset niece had already left- are you with me still ?... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: ) DH was putting the dogs outside, so we really didn’t have any extra adults around.<br><br>
My purpose in posting was that I really didn’t have a clear answer for DH when he asked me about it. He has come so far in his journey away from the way he was raised (Italian parents- lots of yelling, hitting and fear) so we’ve been doing a lot of talking about how important GD is. I’m glad, frankly, that it even registered for him that holding her could have been perceived as restraint. It’s a huge breakthrough for him.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/luxlove.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="throb"> Anyway, I think in every scenario there are different answers. In the heat of the moment it’s hard to always do the right thing, but I feel alright about how this worked out.

 

[MissRubyandKen]

I wanted to voice that I am honestly uncomfortable with the term 'boundary hug'. I think that giving an action like forcibly holding a child against their will a 'cutesy' name such as this may lead to some caregivers not fully realizing the seriousness of the action and possibly they may overlook or downplay any affects, emotions, or behaviors that might stem from the experience of the child being held against their will. Please take careful consideration of these possibilities before deciding to adopt such a term. Forceful holding is not akin to embrace. If one is fine with the action of forcibly holding a child against their will then they are fine with holding a child in such a manner.<br><br>
I hope no one is offended by this comparison, but these are my concerns with calling forcible holding a ‘boundary hug’ that have refused to leave my head today. So many people who hit their children would be appalled if asked if they would ever hit their children. I have heard this numerous times myself. They think no I would never hit my child. But yet they do ‘spank’ or ‘swat’ or ‘tap’. I am concerned that if the term ‘boundary hug’ begins to be spread around, many people may not realize the extent of the violation that forcible holding is mostly because it has been advocated to them as a ‘boundary hug’, oh its a hug, of course that’s okay, what a loving, gentle way to control my child. A fish is a fish, a hit is a hit, a forcible hold is a forcible hold, if one is okay with the action as a choice for themselves and the children they care for, please consider not calling the forcible hold a hug. I seriously doubt the child will experience it as a hug, which is what I have always called an embrace of affection.

 

[MissRubyandKen]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Storm Bride</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6590690"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I used to do this with my nephew sometimes. It's a long, complicated story, but it didn't involve him stopping him from hurting anybody.<br><br>
I'm the only adult who ever held him against his will, or used holding him and restraining him as a way to deal with his behavioural issues. I'm also the only adult he is strongly attached to, and the only adult who receives any spontaneous signs of affection from him.<br><br>
I'm not sure how I feel about holding kids on a day-to-day basis. I've done it with dd a couple of times when she was in real danger of hurting herself or ds2, but it hasn't happened often. With my nephew, it was the only strategy I could find to deal with his behavioural/emotional problems. I don't feel that it damaged our attachment in any way.</div>
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I'm glad that you don't feel that your attachment was damaged in any way. I know the circumstances are completely different but I have pinned my son to brush his teeth. I do not think this damaged our attachment. However I do think it led to feelings and problems that would not have otherwise existed. There is bound to be another option for me when force isn't considered an option.<br><br>
In intense situations I like to ask myself, am I escalating this conflict or de-escalating this conflict? Forcibly holding a child who is already exhibiting signs of loss of self control is bound to escalate in the immediate if not in the long term I would think. Approaching a child with calm in a soothing manner offering help is much more likely to de-escalate in my experience. The child needs help regaining self control, not physically forced control from another.

 

[famousmockngbrd]

I agree that "boundary hug" is not a good name. I just call it "restraining".<br><br>
I do not think it is comparable to spanking. For one thing, it's not punishment or discipline - it's for the child's immediate protection. I consider it more like grabbing a kid who is about to run into the street. Even if that kid wants to be let go, I am not going to.<br><br>
When DS loses control, he really loses it. He needs to be restrained for his own safety and the safety of those around him.

 

[DevaMajka]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>natensarah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6590059"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If a child is hurting other children and needs to be physically removed, fine. Do it quickly and then let them go. I object to trying to rock/comfort/cuddle a child that does not want to be held. That would, honestly, feel kind of violating to me, and I think my children, at least, would feel the same.</div>
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Couldn't have expressed my feelings on it any more clearly than that <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[MissRubyandKen]

Deva33mommy,<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/loveeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Loveeyes">: <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/luxlove.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="throb"><br><br>
Sometimes I wish I knew how to be abrupt and to the point, <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> .

 

[Storm Bride]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MissRubyandKen</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6599280"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">In intense situations I like to ask myself, am I escalating this conflict or de-escalating this conflict? Forcibly holding a child who is already exhibiting signs of loss of self control is bound to escalate in the immediate if not in the long term I would think. Approaching a child with calm in a soothing manner offering help is much more likely to de-escalate in my experience. The child needs help regaining self control, not physically forced control from another.</div>
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Holding him - physically restraining him - was the <i>only</i> way I ever found of de-escalating things with my nephew. He had (and still has) serious emotional issues and behavioural problems, and there was no "normal" way to deal with him. Believe me...I shared a house with him for over four years, and I tried <i>everything</i>. Distraction, redirection, consequences (of the "you have to help ds1 pick up the toys you both threw around, or you're not going to be able to come up here to play type), etc. - nothing worked. The only way to get him calmed down enough to actually comprehend anything I said was to hold him until he stopped fighting me. Did I like it? No - but it worked, and nothing else did. Approaching him in a soothing manner offering help did absolutely nothing (except get me hit a couple of times).

 

[The4OfUs]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MissRubyandKen</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6599280"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">In intense situations I like to ask myself, am I escalating this conflict or de-escalating this conflict? Forcibly holding a child who is already exhibiting signs of loss of self control is bound to escalate in the immediate if not in the long term I would think. Approaching a child with calm in a soothing manner offering help is much more likely to de-escalate in my experience. The child needs help regaining self control, not physically forced control from another.</div>
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Actually, for my own almost 3-yo (who is very intense), if I try to calmly talk to him when he's really flipping out and discuss alternatives and try to help, it makes things SO, SO much worse. I have learned which flip-outs are ones where I calmly say to him, "I understand you're mad, let me know when you want to talk" and stay nearby, and which flip-outs are major ones where the only thing that will help him calm down is me hugging him while he works out the emotions, simply so he doesn't hurt himself or destroy anything.<br><br>
As with many things in parenting, I've found what I initially believed to be my viewpoint has not proven to be effective for my own child (children - DD is so young still). My son is very intense in everything. He feels everything BIG. All children can be intense at times, especially during toddlerhood, and there's the expectation of tantrums and freak outs; some children go beyond this and are intense all the time, in their happiness, their sadness, and their anger. Unless you have an intense child, it's difficult to understand. I have a pretty intense child. When you've had 3 different people say to you at separate times, "I've never seen someone get so enthusiastic about food!", you know you have an intense kid. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
I would not recommend parents go around restraining their children every time they have a negative emotion or temper tantrum and force them to stay in their arms until they calm down - that's totally over the top - I wouldn't even *necessarily* suggest holding a child that was clearly stating that they wanted to be released or trying to get out of being held (unless you were preventing said child from inflicting dangerous physical harm to another person), BUT...with a really intense child, sometimes the safety of their parents arms when they are having big emotions is the only thing that will calm them down. I remember a couple times DS asked to be let go, so I did right away and apologized to him - I misjudged the situation. But every other time, he just kind of thrashes for a couple minutes while calming down, eventually snuggling *into* me, like a safe haven. As to the suggestion of just quickly removing him and not holding him, when he's in a big flip-out, he'll just run right back to wherever it was and start again (believe me, I've tried) - he has GREAT singleness of purpose.<br><br>
So many scenarios could lead up to a technique like this, and while I feel it *could* become very icky if used as a daily discipline technique, I also KNOW from my own child that sometimes calmly talking, suggestions, and even putting your body in between them and another person or object isn't enough, with an intense child.<br><br>
For the record, I've done this probably 5 times in the past year.<br><br>
To me, there is a world of difference between:<br>
-a child throwing a "normal" temper tantrum and a parent holding them saying, "I will not let go of you until you stop screaming" while they plead to be released and are trying to get out<br>
and<br>
- a parent holding a completely out of control child (i.e., not just a normal tantrum) and saying, "I know you're mad and a little scared, I'll help you calm down until you feel better".<br>
If you've never experienced an intense child throwing a whopper of a freak out, this may not make sense...but if you have, it probably does.<br><br>
As to the OP, I wasn't there so I cannot judge the situation - there may have been a better alternative, there may not. I just wanted to give my own experience and opinions on the topic in general.<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/Peace.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Peace">

 

[honeybee]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>natensarah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6590059"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">She could have taken her out immediately. And, it seemed like she had STOPPED throwing things until she tried to rock her. I don't know, maybe I'm misreading, it's always hard to explain these scenarios.<br><br>
If a child is hurting other children and needs to be physically removed, fine. Do it quickly and then let them go. I object to trying to rock/comfort/cuddle a child that does not want to be held. That would, honestly, feel kind of violating to me, and I think my children, at least, would feel the same.</div>
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Okay, I can see what you mean, now. I think whether I would continue to hold the child would depend on the individual circumstances and my own intuitive sense of whether the action was helping or being considered intrusive.<br><br>
I just don't see how you can go through parenting a toddler/preschooler without physically restraining/holding/moving your child in some form, sometimes when they don't want to be moved. I have had to physically hold/move my son to do something that needs to be done, like change a diaper. I also often have to physically start him moving towards doing something, or he will just sit there all day listening to me say "Ds, please get your shoes on." But if I say this while taking his hand and leading him towards his shoes, he will generally be cooperative. And, lately, I have had to hold my baby's arms down in order to give him a nebulizer treatment, which he needs. I hate doing it, and I feel so sad for him, but I don't feel "guilty" about it, kwim?

 

[honeybee]

MissRubyandKen,<br><br>
Thanks for the clarification. Now it makes more sense. In your original post, I'm imagining an out-of-control child flinging things about while an adult stands there getting hit saying "Now, don't do that," while other kids are getting beaned with toys. Now I realize we were envisioning the scenario differently. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
I read this board to learn other perspectives and get ideas for more gentle approaches. I'll keep some of your ideas in mind if a similar situation ever comes up, now that I understand better what you're saying.<br><br>
I don't know that I agree with the premise that we should never hold a child against their will, however. It's not something I would do on a regular basis, but I think there are some kids/circumstances that warrant restraint. I know a teacher who uses a basket hold for out-of-control children until they can be removed from her classroom. This is an inner city school, and she has to deal with some crazy, violent stuff. She makes it a point to love all of her students, no matter what, though. She is a very effective teacher, and she ends up having the best relationships with those kids she needs to use the basket hold on.

 

[mamaduck]

I really think there are some children who are disturbed by their own lack of control, and feel better knowing that there is a strong person who will protect them from themselves and keep them safe.

 

[StephandOwen]

My 3 year old ds often has fits where he would destroy everything in sight and harm himself and others. The only way I have found to keep him safe is restraining him. Does he like it? No. I don't either but he usually calms down fairly quickly.

 

[Moon Faerie]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>The4OfUs</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6601357"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Actually, for my own almost 3-yo (who is very intense), if I try to calmly talk to him when he's really flipping out and discuss alternatives and try to help, it makes things SO, SO much worse. I have learned which flip-outs are ones where I calmly say to him, "I understand you're mad, let me know when you want to talk" and stay nearby, and which flip-outs are major ones where the only thing that will help him calm down is me hugging him while he works out the emotions, simply so he doesn't hurt himself or destroy anything.</div>
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I could have written that. My ds, who just turned 3, is also very intense. He's also very sensitive to noise and crowds. If he started to freak out and we can't get him somewhere private right away, holding him is the only thing that helps at all, and that even only eases it until we have time to get him some quiet space. At home if he gets like that, he'll go into the bedroom to calm himself down.

 

[hipumpkins]

I think if they're screaming, "put me down" you ought to do just that. (barring any real physical harm to anyone and also barring any emotional issues that may require that sort of thing but which I know know nothing about ) Put them down and let them work it out and let them come to you and be ready to hug at that time.<br>
My DD would freak out if she were held and you might lose a tooth for even trying such a thing.<br><br>
Hey FMB..our kids are total opposites on this issue <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">

 

[natashaccat]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Natsuki</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6582869"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I call that the 'boundary hug' and I think it definitely has a place in gentle discipline. When a child is acting out of control like that, they are also feeling out of control inside and their internal boundaries/self-control are not working. By putting your arms around them and talking to them like that you are providing external boundaries to protect them and keep them safe.<br><br>
While I have a child hugged like that I would whisper in their ear something like this "You are having some very big feelings right now, but I am bigger than those feelings and I will keep you safe while you process them." or something like that so they know that they are safe, allowed to process their feelings, but not allowed to hurt others while they do so.<br><br>
Using the hug to help remove a child from the situation to somewhere else can also work well too.</div>
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yeah all that... to the OP I would have done the same thing in that situation. I think the key here is that you tried a boundary hug, found that it wasn't quite what you niece needed and moved on to something else. Seems like a perfectly responsive and respectful way of handling this situation to me. It'd be nice to always know exactly what a child needs at any given time to eliminate the trial and error but really, all we can do is our best.