[gaialice]

Hi,
This post grows out of another post a few days ago about tantrums.
One of the posts in that thread contained this interesting link:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt...g_therapy.html
The article basically warns against holding a child during tantrums because "It can be immensely difficult for a child to regain full, genuine trust after being forcibly held, regardless of the parent's "good intentions". I do not know what to think of this. After trying many things with my 4-yo daugther's tantrums, during which she will try and destroy things and hit me or dd2, I had thought that by holding her as gently as possible I could make her feel protected and secure that her rage is not allowed to cause damage. I think it must be scary for her that her rage is so powerful that she hits the people she loves the most! Anyway at this point (although it has been some time since the last time she tantrumed) I feel I do not know what I should do anymore in case she does tantrum again?

 

[RubySweet]

I think it depends on the situation & the individual child. My ds used to do as your dd when he was a little younger. I found that gently holding him in my lap really did help him calm down much more AND much faster. It's not like I was doing anything harsh & I never made him make eye contact like the article mentioned. I'd just hold him calmly in my lap & talk to him softly, then within like 30 seconds he'd relax. Maybe what I did is something totally different than this "holding therapy" though??

 

[AngelBee]

: Hmmmmm.....I wonder if they mean holding them against their will.....if they express wanting to not be held and not put down.

 

[Magella]

I don't know if what you're doing is the same as the "holding therapy" the article is talking about. I got the sense from the article that holding therapy involves holding the child against his or her will, using whatever force that would require, until the child is calm and compliant-and sometimes compliance is tested by asking the child to make eye contact (if the child refuses, the adult might not release the child, even if the child is calm). This sounds a lot like what we did at a school for autistic children I worked at years ago-children were physically restrained until both calm and compliant. Children who are being held in restraint against their will are usually at least screaming/yelling/crying more than before they were in restraint (which would indicate to me they don't like it) and often physically fighting against being held. It's exhausting for the child. It's very violent. I could not do it again.

I think when a child does not want to be held, they let you know through their words/sounds or body language. I think if a child clearly does not want to be held, they shouldn't be held.

I think holding a child in your arms while they experience those intense feelings is comforting and appropriate as long as that's what the child wants/is comfortable with.

 

[mamazee]

I had someone recommend "holding therapy" for my dd once. My dd got really violent rage type tantrums. I sometimes had to hold her just to protect myself because she would become so violent, but I wouldn't consider holding as a method of "dealing with" a tantrum. IMO tantrums don't need to be "dealt with" except that the child's feelings should be validated and the child should be protected from hurting him/herself. But you would know if you were doing this holding therapy. It's basically a punishment. You hold the child so the child can't move at all until the child stops the tantrum and is compliant. Kind of like when one kid holds another kid down until the kid says "uncle". There isn't anything gentle about it.

 

[RubySweet]

Quote:

My dd got really violent rage type tantrums. I sometimes had to hold her just to protect myself because she would become so violent, but I wouldn't consider holding as a method of "dealing with" a tantrum.

That's when I'd hold him too - when he'd go swinging at me or someone else or something that would physically hurt him. Not just any old tantrum, KWIM?

Quote:

I got the sense from the article that holding therapy involves holding the child against his or her will, using whatever force that would require, until the child is calm and compliant-and sometimes compliance is tested by asking the child to make eye contact (if the child refuses, the adult might not release the child, even if the child is calm).

I was wondering if that was what they meant.

 

[Marsupialmom]

gaialice, I think you know your child best. I also think it depends greatly on the situation. There has been times I have forciably held my child. They wanted to run across the street, parking lot, et.

I will admit I used force when my daughter was throwing herself into a second floor window in a fit. I got eye level grabbed her and said firmly, "I love you and won't let you hurt yourself."

I have also restrained my child for necessary medical procedures. I was honest forwarned before hand. Admitted and acknowledge the pain and any other emotion. She always seem calmer. Even know she will asked to be held, even though the pain isn't there, during exam.

So, I think holding can be helpful but you are the only one to judge.

 

[Laurel]

I think it depends on the child and the situation. I would not be comfortable holding my ds during a tantrum, because I have tried it and he hates it. In our situation, it would be "force", and I am not comfortable with that.

If holding the child seems to comfort them and help them calm down, then I think it would be OK.

 

[flyingspaghettimama]

The book and method she's referring to is usually specifically used for attachment disordered children - children who have been in the Romanian orphanages, have been in multiple foster homes, beaten, have witnessed killings, and are doing things much worse than described here. I worked with a local adoptive group, and the rage that some of the children had was truly tremendous (we're talking five year olds with knives and strangulation attempts, six year olds killing the cat, eight year olds who can't leave the house without screaming at people), and many tried this approach as an alternative to other (gentler/harsher) methods that hadn't yet worked. The parents were very concerned about attachment and whether or not their children would ever be able to attach to them. Of course, many also followed a lot of "mainstream" parenting approaches when their children came to them (i.e. CIO, separation, food issues, etc etc) that only exacerbated the problem. It's not until they reach between ages 5-8 that some of the attachment issues really start being evident, apparently? I think Welch is in the AP camp, from what other adoptive parents described?

It does not sound to me like anything anyone here is doing is like "holding time" nor are the children like those whose parents are using it.

I think it's very controversial approach, even within that community, but I guess I also wouldn't want to walk in those shoes. I think Jan Hunt is a spectacular author however.

 

[2BMamaof3]

My son had rage type tantrums as a 3-4-5 year old and I did this type of holding when he became violent and destructive. He was so upset he could not stop from slamming his body around, hurting himself, me, the wall, the door. I felt it was protective (for us both) and I didn't know what else to do.

I also don't think a tantrum has to be "dealt" with either, but if a child is being violent and hurting himself or others, something has to happen. Just moving my son to another room didn't help. It was really quite startling and sad to watch. At any rate, I'd hold him until the extreme rage had passed. Then he'd turn and hug me. It was scary for him to be so out of control.

As he got older we worked on self-soothing things, relaxation techniques, etc. There were times he'd get so out of control but he'd say, "Mom, mom mom mom I need you I need your help, help me hold me I can't stop!" and so I'd hold him and walk him through relaxation exercises.

I can honestly say he hasn't raged in over 2 years ...I don't think...I don't remember (he's 10 now) and prior to that they were few and far between after he turned 6. But it was hard. Some kids have some pretty big issues for one reason or another. It was so challenging to deal with at first and I admit we ran the gamut in how we chose to "discipline" What finally worked was helping him learn to calm himself down. Enforcing limits and forcing him into timeouts (and yeah, we even tried spanking and DUH, it didn't work...but desperation and that cycle so many of us were raised with hadn't been broken yet).

Now, my daughter does things like strike out at me when she is angry and spits (yuck). I simply say, "I see you are really angry butwe don't spit and I don't like to be around people who spit." and then I leave the room. If I can't sometimes I pick her up and move her to the other room and say, "I don't like it when you spit/hit/etc., when you are ready to stop doing that you can come and be with me again." I sort of do the Barbara Coloroso thing of, "if you hit you sit" but it's not really a timeout. She rages and I can just validate her feelings. Her rages are nothing like her brothers, but if I try to hold her while she's so upset, watch out! That DOES escalate things and then she does become violent, whereas if I just leave her to be really angry and talk about it later, it's much less turbulent for all.

Different kids have different needs. Figuring out what they need is the hardest part of parenting and it is sort of a trial by error sort of a thing sometimes.

Abby

 

[Magella]

I can't stop thinking about this thread

First, I had forgotten that Holding Time is a (controversial) therapy for kids diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder (and others with "attachment problems"), so my comparison of what was discussed in that article to the restraint used with autistic students as punishment for tantrums was not entirely appropriate.

2BMama, you have a really good point. Each child is different, and it's really up to each of us parents to figure out what will help our kids best. Clearly, your son did need to be held for protection, and after the fact showed great relief at being held.

As much as I think of holding a child against their will as violent, I have to admit that if I had to choose between holding my child forcefully and letting my child hurt herself, I think I would probably choose to hold her forcefully until she began to calm a little. There's a difference between holding a child for protection in a truly dangerous situation and holding a child as punishment for or as a method of dealing with a tantrum.

Gaialice, the answer really does lie with your child and yourself. You know your child best, you know the situation best.

 

[quaz]

You need to base it on your child.

My 2 1/2 year old when she has pulled hair, hit, whatever... I've tried to help her not hit by holding her hands with her... or holding her.... by telling her I'm going to help her not hit, until she can do it....she goes ballistic and freaks. I can see why it doesn't work with her temperment... she's highly independent, and must feel it is an invasion of her space. Makes sense... everyone has a different view of 'their' space, and reactions to intrutions on it.

Tammy

 

[Jenne]

"Holding Time/Holding Therpay" does NOT = holding your child during a tantrum

"Holding Time" is a daily event initiated by the parent .

If you occassionally hold your child during a tantrum and it works for you and your child

Don't get me started on "Holding Time" (which I have read and it is NOT NOT NOT AP!) or regimentalized holding therapy which is coercive.

Jenne

 

[dvnmama]

My son was a major tantrumer. I would never have held him in that manner. I've seen that study referenced more than once in the mainstream attachment psychology community and the whole things scares the boogers out of me.

I grappled for 4 years with how I dealt with his tantrums. I was a tantruming kid. My mom used to try and hold me. She thought she was helping. The memory of those tantrums and feeling out of control and not being able to reign myself back in, and then being held, even as gently as I know she held me because she is a smart, loving, gentle soul, against my will is still very powerful at the age of 39.

Recently she was cleaning out the basement and offered me the rocking chair that she used to hold me in. I told her no thanks, I had horrid memories of that chair. She didn't know, and the discussion that followed was full of tears on both sides.

You have to remember that it's harder on the child who is out of control than it is on you. You know your kid. You know instinctively what he needs, don't second guess it. I did a lot of that with ds, and I fought dh on a lot of things in this arena. I'm glad I did, because he's past it now, and none the worse for wear. When he would rage, I would corral. Make sure the space is safe, and if not, get to a safe space and ride it out. If he hit me, I moved out of the way, didn't even discuss it at that moment...there is no learning in those moments for children, there is just getting through it. I would always be there, never separate myself from him during them, and when the tonal quality of his screams changed, I knew it was time for hugs and strokes.

Later, we talked about things. I think he has a much stronger command of his emotions and ability to express them than most kids his age, and I'm so glad for that.

It's hard to get through...really hard. I'll never forget the tantrum in the grocery store where I dropped my cell phone as I was carrying him out of the store, and as I dropped it, it had dialed home, and my dh got to hear the whole rest of the tantrum in the car which involved ds telling me that he didn't love me, he hated me. Oh man, by the time he cycled down, and we got home, dh was livid. He just never really got the whole tantrum thing. That was 2 1/2 years ago now and ds still every now and then will say "Momma, remember that time I was freaking out and told you that I didn't love you? I'm sorry about that momma, I didn't mean it"

So very hard for them.
Good luck, stick with what feels right to you and it will all be fine.
Sue

 

[gaialice]

Thanks everyone for the replies! In fact, this holding thing is rather recent. I have done it perhaps 3 times total. The thing is, when she gets so mad, she hits: me or her sister. I do not really like the idea of running away from her with dd2 in my arms to protect her. It looks as though I am scarted of dd1 and I do not think it is a good thing to do. Holding seemed better, but it is true, she does not like being held. In fact, she did have a tantrum this weekend, and I did hold her, and she did not like it, so I let her go, so she went to her room, slammed the door, and quieted immediately. So I think now after seeing your replies and especially dvnmama, gosh, you still remember this now.... I have to come up with a better idea.... but I still think I will hold her if she tantrums in a public place. I cannot let her loose in public, she may hit people, or knock them over, whatever...