[Plummeting]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Katiemare</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">--I think it would be a disservice for me to allow my child to nurse all night long.....It also would not send him the important message that Mamma is a person who has individual needs and feelings.</div>
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I just wanted to say that I *totally* disagree with this!!! You are basically saying that everyone who *doesn't* night wean or enforce some other articial nursing schedule will be raising their nurslings to believe that Mamma doesn't have her own needs. Perhaps you didn't mean that, but it is what you imply by saying that a baby doesn't get the message that his mamma has needs unless he is night weaned. I'm very happy that you were able to find a way to continue nursing and still meet your needs and your son's, but to make a statement like that....It simply isn't true. If you had continued to night nurse, it would not in any way have stopped your son from learning that you also have needs and feelings. It makes me sad that you said that.

 

[mother_sunshine]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>callmemama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Glad you popped in Mother Sunshine! You are the "CLW role model" I referred to in my post a few pages back. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"></div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"> Thanks Callmemama <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">

 

[Katiemare]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Richelle</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I just wanted to say that I *totally* disagree with this!!! You are basically saying that everyone who *doesn't* night wean or enforce some other articial nursing schedule will be raising their nurslings to believe that Mamma doesn't have her own needs.</div>
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That's not what I said. I said it'd be a disservice to "my son" (not to "all children") to let him "nurse all night" (not talking about "everyone who doesn't enforce an 'artificial' nursing schedule" or how they raise their children). That is not basically the same thing. It's a huge leap from what I said.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Perhaps you didn't mean that, but it is what you imply by saying that a baby doesn't get the message that his mamma has needs unless he is night weaned.</td>
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nope. I only speak of our experience in my post.<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I'm very happy that you were able to find a way to continue nursing and still meet your needs and your son's, but to make a statement like that....It simply isn't true. If you had continued to night nurse, it would not in any way have stopped your son from learning that you also have needs and feelings. It makes me sad that you said that.</td>
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I just can't speak to all of the incorrect assumptions you have made about me, my thinking and my relationship (in terms of breastfeeding, and just in general) with my child.<br><br>
In what you saw as a defense of your own nursing and parenting style, you make assumptions about me that I find insulting. It's not a huge deal to me; I understand that I am the minority in this particular board. I just don't understand why "strict" CLWers ** (using similarly to "strict vegetarians, if that makes sense) feel the need to go after nightweaners like that. I am not attacking your way of life. On a nationwide scale, we have so few allies--why is there so much tension here?<br><br>
We need more <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"> here in the CLW forum.<br><br>
**Just as a strict vegetarian eats no fish, but lots of ppl call themselves vegetarian and they DO eat seafood (but not chicken and other meats). so a strict CLW mom imposes NO limits ("in 5 minutes" and the inability to nurse in a moving vehicle are not limit-setting)-- but lots of moms (myself and a few others willing to talk about it here) do nightwean or set other limits and still call ourselves Child-Led Weaners, or at least we identify with it to some degree.<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/peace.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Peace">:

 

[radish]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtwice</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Seems to me it could be argued either way.<br><br>
You could say nightweaning is not CLW if the child wants to nurse.<br><br>
You could say that nightweaning might mean that the mom is still CLW during the day.<br><br>
The important thing to me is, are you respecting the child's developmental/emotional/physical timetable?<br><br>
Are you nightweaning at the time when the child has grown into the ability to cope with it, or are you being bullied into nightweaning because some external voice is telling you the child "SHOULD" be sleeping through the night?<br><br>
Gently negotiating at night with a 4 year old is very different from forcing a 6 month old to CIO, KWIM? There are so many shades between Child-LW and Mom-LW. It's not just black and white.</div>
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ITA and great post by Mpther-Sunshine <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[doctorjen]

This thread brings up a lot of interesting issues. I'm currently making an attempt at truly CLW weaning for the first time. I nursed my other 3 into toddlerhood, but for one reason and another they were all weaned by their 2nd birthday.<br>
I have to say I often don't feel very comfortable in this forum because of the often strong opinions over what is and isn't CLW, and therefore who belongs posting here.<br>
I've done a lot of things in my little dd's life that go against true CLW starting with the fact that I WOH, and therefore she has been limited to no day-time nursing since she was 6 weeks old.<br>
On the other hand, I've done everything else in my power to encourage her to extended nurse. She still nurses 3-6 times in 24 hours at almost 27 mos of age, with no sign of an end in sight.<br>
Whenever I come here, I start feeling like maybe I don't belong, since I don't think I've followed CLW to the letter, but on the other hand, I'm nursing a 27 month old who is very mature. She can carry on full conversations, pretend, explain her feelings to me - while many of the posters in breastfeeding after infancy seem to have younger toddlers. We don't really have any breastfeeding problems, and so I don't really feel like I belong in breastfeeding, or breastfeeding after infancy either - especially when most of the posts are either about problems, or weaning!<br>
I think that restricting posts of a particular topic would only serve to make CLW more exclusive. I agree that a thread like "I can't stand it anymore, how do I get this kid to wean?!!" probably belong in another forum, or threads were the OP obviously didn't realize they were posting in CLW (I once accidentally posted in the VBAC forum about something totally unrelated, and was glad a nice mod moved it for me) But when moms are seeking opinions and advice from CLW moms, it seems like most of the time it's appropriate to leave the thread here.<br>
Also, I think part of the reason there is so much debate on nightweaning is due to the different personalities of moms and babies. My first 3 children all transitioned to sleeping through the night on their own, in our family bed even, by a year of age without any encouragement. My little dd, though has continued to night nurse still at 27 months. I'm a good sleeper, able to wake just briefly to latch the babe, then sleep through a prolonged session. I function well on interrupted sleep (also helpful in my chosen career.) It would be easy for me to be critical of mom who has doesn't have my ability to sleep through anything, or had a child whose demands were so much harder than mine to meet. I relatively painlessly continue to nurse dd 1-2 times a night, but I'm not sure I could do it if I was still facing every hour requests to nurse. The old "until you've walked a mile in their shoes" seems to apply.

 

[Plummeting]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Katiemare</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I just can't speak to all of the incorrect assumptions you have made about me, my thinking and my relationship (in terms of breastfeeding, and just in general) with my child.<br><br>
In what you saw as a defense of your own nursing and parenting style, you make assumptions about me that I find insulting. It's not a huge deal to me; I understand that I am the minority in this particular board. I just don't understand why "strict" CLWers ** (using similarly to "strict vegetarians, if that makes sense) feel the need to go after nightweaners like that.</div>
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You're right - incorrect assumptions. But you're making assumptions about me. I disagreed with what I *thought* you meant. I was wrong about what I *thought* you meant. I didn't "feel the need to go after" you because you're a "nightweaner". You are assuming that I'm some kind of "strick CLWer" (your words) because I disagreed with an idea I thought you were proposing (granted, I was wrong) that really had nothing to do with CLW at all. See how easy it is to misunderstand?<br><br>
To be honest, I don't see the point in trying to define whether or not this or that is or is not CLW. I'm not saying I think this is a pointless thread, because it isn't - it's interesting to see what the differing opinions are. However, I doubt that anyone is going to have a lightbulb moment where they suddenly say, "Ah, so I had better not nightwean, because then I wouldn't be doing 'true' CLW" or anything like that. I hink we're all going to do what we feel comfortable with and it doesn't really matter what we call it, does it? And FWIW, I'm generally not comfortable with night weaning, but I think night weaning doesn't preclude your child from deciding when to fully wean himself. I guess that means I'm not a "strict CLWer"? I don't know. I'm just doing what I think DD wants me to do. It's *her* food/drink/comfort, so I feel like *she* should be the one to decide when, where and for how long she needs it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up">

 

[mother_sunshine]

doctorjen, fwiw, I think you belong in this forum just as much as anyone else in this thread.

 

[ShabbyChic]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Katiemare</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">In what you saw as a defense of your own nursing and parenting style, you make assumptions about me that I find insulting. It's not a huge deal to me; I understand that I am the minority in this particular board. I just don't understand why "strict" CLWers ** (using similarly to "strict vegetarians, if that makes sense) feel the need to go after nightweaners like that. I am not attacking your way of life. On a nationwide scale, we have so few allies--why is there so much tension here?</div>
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OK, this has really been bothering me all day. You say you nightweaned your son at 18 months. Is that right? 18 months. Yet, you are on this board saying you are a CLW. What happened when your son was 18 months? Did he wake to nurse and you told him no and he accepted that with a smile and went back to sleep. Or did he cry? Did you or your partner rub his back and rock him and tell him no more? Did it take a few nights till he finally didn't want to nurse anymore? Now, mind you, I could be entirely wrong and maybe he did readily accept your no and go back to sleep. But, for now, judging from my experience with babies that age, I am going to venture a guess that he was none too pleased.<br><br>
So, this is not Child-Led, right? It was initiated by you. Not him. And, you did say that it was your choice in your first post. Let's call a spade a spade. This forum is entitled Child-Led Weaning. Anything other than weaning led by the child, as I understand the definition to be, would not fall into the scope of interest for this particular forum.<br><br>
And, I do want to add, that I am not judging you, I am just having a difficult time understanding why you are going to such great lengths to make others believe that nightweaning an 18 month old falls within the generally understood definition of CLW.<br><br>
I also feel that suggesting to a 4 year old that maybe he could try to go back to sleep and then if he does that, is wildly opposite of "teaching" an 18 month old not to nurse in the night. My DS is 17 1/2 months. He is a baby. If he asks to nurse in the night, he needs to nurse in the night. His needs will come before mine for a long time.

 

[doctorjen]

See, that's the type of dialogue that makes me uncomfortable on this board. The you can't be a CLWer if you do this or that. It's almost like a contest to see who can be the most self-sacrificing mom. We're all on the same side here. Every person who posted on this thread has a child nursed/nursing well beyond the ridiculous US average. What difference does it make if some set certain limits and some didn't? It would seem silly to say to mother sunshine that her child who nursed until she was 7 1/2 didn't CLW because she was nightweaned.<br>
Personally, I don't care what label I wear - but I certainly identify more with CLW than I do with other philosophies, but the tone of you-can't-claim-CLW-status if you did this or that really turns me off to this board.

 

[TiredX2]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>doctorjen</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">See, that's the type of dialogue that makes me uncomfortable on this board. The you can't be a CLWer if you do this or that. It's almost like a contest to see who can be the most self-sacrificing mom. We're all on the same side here. Every person who posted on this thread has a child nursed/nursing well beyond the ridiculous US average. What difference does it make if some set certain limits and some didn't? It would seem silly to say to mother sunshine that her child who nursed until she was 7 1/2 didn't CLW because she was nightweaned.<br>
Personally, I don't care what label I wear - but I certainly identify more with CLW than I do with other philosophies, but the tone of you-can't-claim-CLW-status if you did this or that really turns me off to this board.</div>
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Honestly, I consider there to be two different issues at play here:<br><br>
1) Can you nightwean and still CLW?<br>
2) Can you *discuss* nightweaning on the CLWing board?<br><br>
I think CLW is mostly self-defined. As doctorjen points out--- who is willing to say that mother sunshine *didn't* CLW because of nightweaning but is also willing to say that someone who never set "limits" but who's child fully weaned at 15-18 months did CLW?<br><br>
BUT, simply because you *can* nightwean and still be CLWing does not mean that discussion needs to happen *here.* I'm not saying the way the board *should* be, but I could see the possibility of people who want to nightwean discussing that on the Breastfeeding Beyond Infancy board but still coming here for CLW support. It just seems that people who "strictly" CLW should have some place where they don't need to constantly see threads about weaning (in any form) and it would be easy to move nightweaning discussions to a different board.

 

[mother_sunshine]

<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">

 

[doctorjen]

Actually, I think I agree that it's 2 different issues. And I understand wanting to have a nice haven to discuss issues without having to hear weaning stories and advice. Just, I know that the ladies here give good advice that might help someone see what their alternatives are and how other folks got through similar situations without weaning. I think it's a grey area trying to figure out exactly what should and shouldn't stay here. I feel bad though, when the discussion takes a turn that sounds so much like "you don't belong" here.<br>
I live somewhere where toddler nursing is so rare, I feel like I'm the poster child for extended breastfeeding, and I get tired of explaining myself all the time. (I don't honestly get that many negative comments, more like complete bewilderment, but it's still tiring.) It's nice to come here and be amongst similar minds, but the tone of exclusivity still makes me uncomfortable even here.

 

[ShabbyChic]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>TiredX2</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><br>
BUT, simply because you *can* nightwean and still be CLWing does not mean that discussion needs to happen *here.* I'm not saying the way the board *should* be, but I could see the possibility of people who want to nightwean discussing that on the Breastfeeding Beyond Infancy board but still coming here for CLW support. It just seems that people who "strictly" CLW should have some place where they don't need to constantly see threads about weaning (in any form) and it would be easy to move nightweaning discussions to a different board.</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod">

 

[mother_sunshine]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShabbyChic</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Let's call a spade a spade. This forum is entitled Child-Led Weaning. Anything other than weaning led by the child, as I understand the definition to be, would not fall into the scope of interest for this particular forum.</div>
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Correct me if I am misunderstanding you ShabbyChic, but by your definition of child-led weaning you are essentially excluding those of us who have made limits that you would consider against the practice of child-led weaning, therefore if we nightweaned then we cannot claim to have child-led weaned because you (and very few others) said so? So doctorjen can not claim to be child-led weaning because she works? Or a mother who goes to school full-time cannot claim to be child-led weaning even if she nurses her child all night while she's home? Or an at-home mother who feels she needs to night-wean her child in order to feel sane (and safe) during the day cannot claim to have child-led weaned even though her child made the complete decision to wean when she was 7,8 or 9 or whatever?<br><br>
Isn't that making this forum more exclusive than it needs to be? The definition of child-led weaning is subjective. Some of us accept certain limits and some of us don't. I think we all agree that CLW involves the child's ultimate decision to stop breastfeeding completely. We don't all have to agree 100% on the details, nor should we! I don't care if LLL or Dr. Whomever puts an exact definition on it. The people who know best are those mothers who are going (or have been) through it.<br><br>
Child-led weaning still means the same to me....and it still means the same to you. By you telling me (and others) that we don't belong in the child-led forum because we night-weaned our child (or work full-time, or got pregnant and dried up, or whatever intentional or unintentional limit on mother's milk), you are leaving out a lot of loving women who have a lot to share here...and you are making me feel regretful that I fought for this forum. I personally don't post in other breastfeeding forums very often because I feel (or at least I thought) that my experience and support would be most valued and welcomed here, and that most of you were accepting of how long dd nursed (no ignorant misjudgements like I got in other forums).<br><br><br>
So can't we all just agree to disagree on this one issue? Yes, I can see how a post asking how to nightwean a child is inappropriate here (and I think we have all agreed). But if the word "night-wean" comes up, as it has in this thread, I think a mother will get plenty of understanding CLW-advocating advice here that she may not get elsewhere. I wouldn't be so quick to kick her out. I would feel glad that she felt comfortable enough here to post (assuming she wasn't trolling).

 

[Kira's mom]

I have a question.Is suggesting to dd to"sleep all night, and we'll drink milk when the sun comes up and then go back nite nite and then drink more milkwhen we wake up again" not clw? I have no agenda as far as nightweaning or any weaning goes.I just seem to be heading twords clw.I have not refused and if she wakes up at any time I absolutely oblige.But a while back i started suggesting this and she is now sleeping 8 hour stretches.I don't really know if it is from my suggestion or not.But i am curious...anything?Did I post at the right place?

 

[~Kira~]

I don't think anyone should be kicked out. I would, however, really love to have one place where the only 'weaning' threads that come up are about a child who has self weaned when they were ready, day, night, etc. That doesn't mean I want all moms who did mother-led night-weaning, or set limits or whatever to leave. Not at all.<br><br>
I just would hope that in the spirit of this particular board being a <b>child-led</b> weaning board, that specific threads regarding mother-led weaning could be made on the non-CLWing boards.<br><br>
Again, it's not that I want those people who do mother-led night-weaning or setting limits to begone....not at all!!!!!! I guess I am just looking for a place where threads about those issues don't come up, because they seem to come up on every mainstream board, extended breastfeeding board, birth board, etc. as it is.<br><br>
However, if that wish makes others feel excluded in any way (which it obviously has) then I will forget it & just stop being so selfish!<br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/Peace.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Peace"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/grouphug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="grouphug"><br><br><br><br>
-Kira<br>
(who hasn't been a member here for nearly as long as most of you, so I'm actually surprised at my presumptuousness!)

 

[UrbanPlanter]

sigh.......<br><br>
mother sunshine, you are my mentor <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug">s

 

[UrbanPlanter]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Kira's mom</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I have a question.Is suggesting to dd to"sleep all night, and we'll drink milk when the sun comes up and then go back nite nite and then drink more milkwhen we wake up again" not clw? I have no agenda as far as nightweaning or any weaning goes.I just seem to be heading twords clw.I have not refused and if she wakes up at any time I absolutely oblige.But a while back i started suggesting this and she is now sleeping 8 hour stretches.I don't really know if it is from my suggestion or not.But i am curious...anything?Did I post at the right place?</div>
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well, I've been doing this since ds was 18 months, and he is still night nursing at 40 months - very insistent is he about his nursies! He would not accept any suggestions or limits at nighttime until recently. Now that he is 40 months old he will let me count to 12 (the magic number for some reason) and then roll off.<br><br>
The reason we are still night nursing is bc he was too traumatized by the limits I tried on him. I recognized that his need was still great and backed down.<br><br>
I think it's ok to try to set limits like these, but important to recognize whether or not the time is/is not right to set this limits in place.

 

[ShabbyChic]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mother_sunshine</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Correct me if I am misunderstanding you ShabbyChic, but by your definition of child-led weaning you are essentially excluding those of us who have made limits that you would consider against the practice of child-led weaning, therefore if we nightweaned then we cannot claim to have child-led weaned because you (and very few others) said so? So doctorjen can not claim to be child-led weaning because she works? Or a mother who goes to school full-time cannot claim to be child-led weaning even if she nurses her child all night while she's home? Or an at-home mother who feels she needs to night-wean her child in order to feel sane (and safe) during the day cannot claim to have child-led weaned even though her child made the complete decision to wean when she was 7,8 or 9 or whatever?<br><br>
Isn't that making this forum more exclusive than it needs to be? The definition of child-led weaning is subjective. Some of us accept certain limits and some of us don't. I think we all agree that CLW involves the child's ultimate decision to stop breastfeeding completely. We don't all have to agree 100% on the details, nor should we! I don't care if LLL or Dr. Whomever puts an exact definition on it. The people who know best are those mothers who are going (or have been) through it.<br><br>
Child-led weaning still means the same to me....and it still means the same to you. By you telling me (and others) that we don't belong in the child-led forum because we night-weaned our child (or work full-time, or got pregnant and dried up, or whatever intentional or unintentional limit on mother's milk), you are leaving out a lot of loving women who have a lot to share here...and you are making me feel regretful that I fought for this forum. I personally don't post in other breastfeeding forums very often because I feel (or at least I thought) that my experience and support would be most valued and welcomed here, and that most of you were accepting of how long dd nursed (no ignorant misjudgements like I got in other forums).<br><br><br>
So can't we all just agree to disagree on this one issue? Yes, I can see how a post asking how to nightwean a child is inappropriate here (and I think we have all agreed). But if the word "night-wean" comes up, as it has in this thread, I think a mother will get plenty of understanding CLW-advocating advice here that she may not get elsewhere. I wouldn't be so quick to kick her out. I would feel glad that she felt comfortable enough here to post (assuming she wasn't trolling).</div>
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What I was really trying to say is that I don't understand why someone would try so hard to post here that nightweaning is a "prominent" aspect of CLW. I came to this forum because I did not want to read posts about how to get a 18 month old to sleep through the night. I don't think that falls under a mama "having" to go back to work. But, that there is MY opinion. It just seems that nightweaning is a very heated topic here and the general conclusion is that it does not fall within within the scope of CLW, especially for a young baby.<br><br>
I am not trying to exclude people. I just feel that putting a limit on an 18 month old is a little severe. But, then again, that is MY opinion. So, all in all, we each have our own definition. I suppose then, my definiton falls into the more extreme and maybe that is not welcome here either.

 

[doctorjen]

OT, but perhaps my dd was reading all the debate over my shoulder, because she slept through the night last night! And I couldn't even enjoy it because I had to get up to answer the phone about 6 times. (I'm on call this weekend)