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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just to clarify, if a forced-vax law passes, school vaccination rates will go up . . . . as parents leave the state or withdraw their children for homeschooling. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-0202-vaccination-rates-20160201-story.html

An amusing quote from the link:

It took guts for legislators to pass this law in the face of vitriolic attacks by anti-vaccination forces.
I know, right? It takes a lot of "guts" to refuse to represent your electorate and press on with your agenda.
 

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The proponents of this bill were getting death threats, so yes, it did take guts. The Nation of Islam came out in opposition to this bill, and they are a known hate/terrorist group.

Do you have numbers for how many kids have left the state or are now homeschooled? The only numbers I've seen are how much higher the % of vaccinated Kinders are.
 

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Do you have any good numbers/studies comparing the long term health outcomes of children vaccinated according to (oh say) the 2005 schedule and selectively/ non-vaccinated children?
 

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Do you have numbers for how many kids have left the state or are now homeschooled? The only numbers I've seen are how much higher the % of vaccinated Kinders are.
I wonder if the number of vaccinated children has gone up or some parents have just found medical professionals who believe in informed decision making & are willing to *say* the child has received the unneeded & unwanted medical procedure. My hope is the latter. This is not a free country forcing unneeded & unwanted injections on individuals. You can spin it any way you want, it's not freedom.

Sus
 

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I wonder if the number of vaccinated children has gone up or some parents have just found medical professionals who believe in informed decision making & are willing to *say* the child has received the unneeded & unwanted medical procedure. My hope is the latter. This is not a free country forcing unneeded & unwanted injections on individuals. You can spin it any way you want, it's not freedom.

Sus
That would be extremely illegal. A doctor would be risking their entire career and facing potential jail time by doing that, so no, I do not find it plausible that that is behind the decrease in vaccine exemptions.
 

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Further, I don't think it ever gets mentioned that parents forced to vaccinate are starting early to space out the vaccines as best as possible, that too would explain recent uptake. The word "already" in the title of the article is (to me) disingenuous.
 

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That would be extremely illegal. A doctor would be risking their entire career and facing potential jail time by doing that, so no, I do not find it plausible that that is behind the decrease in vaccine exemptions.
Vaccine exemptions have decreased because, to a large degree, they are no longer available.
 

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That would be extremely illegal. A doctor would be risking their entire career and facing potential jail time by doing that, so no, I do not find it plausible that that is behind the decrease in vaccine exemptions.
Frankly, I don't care one iota what your opinion is. I do hope there are doctors out there who still believe in informed decision making even if there are individuals like yourself who do not.

Good luck.

Sus
 

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Nevermind, I'm not in the mood to argue today.
 
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That would be extremely illegal. A doctor would be risking their entire career and facing potential jail time by doing that, so no, I do not find it plausible that that is behind the decrease in vaccine exemptions.
Especially since Dr Sears has stated on his facebook page that he is selling medical exemptions for $180 (the cost of his office visit). But he's not anti-vaccine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The proponents of this bill were getting death threats, so yes, it did take guts.
Evidence, please. And I'd like evidence just beyond Pan's word and a newspaper conveying Pan's word.

Before you jump all over me, remember that at least one member of the compliance camp is demanding evidence for this woman's story.

The Nation of Islam came out in opposition to this bill, and they are a known hate/terrorist group.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html

Do you have numbers for how many kids have left the state or are now homeschooled? The only numbers I've seen are how much higher the % of vaccinated Kinders are.
The L.A. times admits that homeschool-related withdrawals are part of that figure. Did you read the article?

As usual, however, the burden of proof rests with the person making the original claim.

The L.A. Times needs to provide data for this unsubstantiated, cause-v-correlation claim:

State health officials say the measles outbreak at Disneyland a year ago might have scared a few parents off the vaccination fence, but SB 277, combined with another bill from 2012 that required parents to talk to a pediatrician before obtaining an exemption, had more to do with it.
 

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Evidence, please. And I'd like evidence just beyond Pan's word and a newspaper conveying Pan's word.

Before you jump all over me, remember that at least one member of the compliance camp is demanding evidence for this woman's story.



http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html



The L.A. times admits that homeschool-related withdrawals are part of that figure. Did you read the article?

As usual, however, the burden of proof rests with the person making the original claim.

The L.A. Times needs to provide data for this unsubstantiated, cause-v-correlation claim:
"Evidence, please. And I'd like evidence just beyond Pan's word and a newspaper conveying Pan's word. "



Authorities have warned California legislative offices to be on the lookout for a Southern California man arrested last week and suspected of spraying graffiti that threatened lawmakers for the approval of Senate Bill 277, which outlaws religious and personal belief exemptions for school-required vaccines.

The California Highway Patrol issued a bulletin to sergeants-at-arms’ offices in the Assembly and Senate about Marlon Brian Andrino, who was arrested July 2 in Beverly Hills on a charge of felony vandalism. Police say Andrino spray-painted “4 Every Kid Afflicted A Public Figure Will Die, SB 277” at four locations: the Beverly Hills Chamber of Commerce, West Hollywood City Hall, on an Interstate 10 sound wall in east Los Angeles and a freeway on-ramp in the Baldwin Park area.

“Andrino is unhappy with the passage of SB 277 (mandatory vaccination bill),” the memo reads, and he spray-painted the message “to express his dismay.”

Andrino posted bail and is out of custody. Beverly Hills investigators continue to prepare a case to present to prosecutors. The CHP’s memo urged recipients to call the department’s threat-assessment unit if they see Andrino near the Capitol or at any event where a state official is present.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article26701063.html#storylink=cpy

The suggestion that Pan and others were making up/exaggerating their claim about receiving death threats goes way back on this forum, further proving my point that asking people to trust what someone says on just their word apparently only goes one way for some members here.
 
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Yes, excellent post, teacozy. I had no idea what on earth most of that post was about, including the references to "Pan." Peter Pan? What? lol Obviously my own ignorance about past posts here. Moving on, the death threats were very widely publicized at the time. And this isn't the only case of pro-vaccination people receiving death threats. There's an anti-vacciation page on Facebook that regularly posts death threats towards doctors and other scientists. It is a very common occurrence.
 

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I don't get your Nation of Islam link. Huh?
http://www.latimes.com/local/politi...rnia-vaccine-mandate-bill-20150622-story.html

You're the one who is claiming that the lower amount of waivers is due to the homeschoolers and people relocating. So I'd like to see your info on that besides one vague mention in the Times.
She linked the "Guilt By Association" fallacy, which does not apply since I took your statement about NOI to mean that there was a reason for legislators to feel threatened since NOI is a known hate/terrorist group with a pretty scary history.
 

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Yes, excellent post, teacozy. I had no idea what on earth most of that post was about, including the references to "Pan." Peter Pan? What? lol Obviously my own ignorance about past posts here. Moving on, the death threats were very widely publicized at the time. And this isn't the only case of pro-vaccination people receiving death threats. There's an anti-vacciation page on Facebook that regularly posts death threats towards doctors and other scientists. It is a very common occurrence.
Pan is referencing Senator Pan (also a pediatrician) who basically spearheaded SB277.
 

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Only those in the medical field can get away with such racist, xenophobic comments.
 
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[unrelated to vaccines: removed]
 

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Even Dan Olmsted from Age of Autism thinks non-vaxers are nuts for wanting to associate with these guys, saying:

Sorry, but to my mind this is not a kumbaya moment. The Nation of Islam is a racist, bigoted, homophobic, woman-degrading hate group. I mean, isn’t it? It is. For Muhammad to compare the coverage of autism and the Nation of Islam is sickening, and it ought to sit poorly with us. It's also choice to talk about "people of all ages, nations, races all together to fight for our kids" and getting "closer together" when NOI doesn't really want white people around -- they want a separate state. ("Rather than preaching a message of unification, NOI calls for segregation and separatism," according to the Web site the blaze.com. "On the group’s web site, the denomination is clear that it wishes for African Americans to live separately from whites.")

Sometimes it's not the media that's your problem, it's the truth.

According to the Extremist Files of the Southern Poverty Law Center, “Since its founding in 1930, the Nation of Islam (NOI) has grown into one of the wealthiest and best-known organizations in black America, offering numerous programs and events designed to uplift African Americans. Nonetheless, its bizarre theology of innate black superiority over whites — a belief system vehemently and consistently rejected by mainstream Muslims — and the deeply racist, anti-Semitic and anti-gay rhetoric of its leaders, including top minister Louis Farrakhan, have earned the NOI a prominent position in the ranks of organized hate.”
Let’s pick one Farakkhan gem: "T]he Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man.” Taken out of context, I'm sure. Oh, "And don't you forget, when it's God who puts you in the ovens, it's forever!"

To continue with the SPLC, “While Jews remain the primary target of Farrakhan's vitriol, he is also well known for bashing gay men and lesbians, Catholics and, of course, the white devils, whom he calls ‘potential humans ... [who] haven't evolved yet.’ All of this has helped make him attractive to certain white supremacist groups who agree that the races must be separated. In its turn, NOI has come to view white supremacists as people who at least understand NOI's program and could therefore become allies.”

I know many in the autism activism community believe there is no problem with this association, that you use what you have to get what you need. Sorry to disagree with that, Friends, but I do. Desperate times call for desperate measures, yes, but not deals with the (small d) devils of racism, bigotry and homophobia.

This brings us to our reducto ad absurdum: Would we go to an Aryan Nation event if they agreed with us? Is "Racists For Vaccine Choice!" a placard we are prepared to get behind?
http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/06/...rap-knock-knock-knocking-on-racisms-door.html
 
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