[Astrogirl]

Before you answer, keep in mind - my girl is 4, she's been in Kindergarten (German) for 2 years now and her teachers tell us that they are always impressed with her ability to communicate and her maturity next to the other kids. She has no problems there (typical, eh?).

We have never had problems with tantrums before, not even when she was 2. She has always been so laid back and usually does the right thing without being told. We've never had to discipline her. She's never really had a time out. We've never yelled at her. She gets a lot of one on one attention (too much?). We have always been able to talk to her (and she us). She has a GREAT support network of me and my husband, the nanny (who is more like a grandma, a replacement for my mom), her teachers. So up to now, i felt we were doing great.

I've read Alfie Kohn, I've read "Kids Parents and Power Struggles" and techniques in both of those books have always been my line of defence.

Lately we've been having problems with her freaking out and crying when she wants something and doesn't get it. Its never anything that you would expect like wanting to eat cookies or not wanting to leave the playground - we NEVER have a problem with those things. As an example, this morning she said she wanted to put on her blue shirt, but her blue shirt was in the washing machine. She freaked out and cried and sobbed. I sympathize with her, repeat back to her what I know she wants, and then explain why its not possible. She cries even louder. In the past 2 weeks, this has been happening about 4 times a day about various issues, most of which are impossible.

I don't get it. She's a logical kid, sometimes more logical than me. So I think there's something else behind it - I think she gets in these cycles where she wants something, cries, and then knows she shouldn't be crying over that and cries even more because she can't sort it all out in her head why she's crying or how to stop. This kind of crying is what you would probably associate with her either being too tired or too hungry, and if I had to guess, its because she's hungry. But I have posted here before about her lack of eating, and I'm stuck on that on as well. I keep food for her on the table, I try not to pressure her, because she is a healthy weight. I can't force her to eat, but I'm starting to get in this cycle now of her not eating and then her not feeling well and crying and then it takes me a minute to associate this random bout of drama with "when did she eat and how much?".

I have no idea how to proceed from here. My gut instinct, just from knowing her as well as I do, is that this isn't a phase that she will grow out of. If she was 2, i would say it was. But she has gone from someone who used to handle these situations quite well, to just falling apart at the slightest thing thats not her way.

 

[geiamama]

My DS went through a similar thing at exactly the same age!

He went through a phase of throwing almighty hissy fits when he didn't get what he wanted, particularly with DH. It was almost as if he was vying for alpha male!

We tried everything - reasoning, comforting, cajolling (made everything worse), placating (made everything 10x worse). In the end we simply packed up all his toys and put them in the attic. We sat him down and explained without anger that for each day that he behaved he weould earn a toy back then waited for the explosion. AND BOY DID HE EXPLODE!!! It was hideous to begin with - screaming, shouting, sobbing - but as he started to get rewarded for good behaviour with toys as well as LOTS of praise he became a much happier little boy.

It was really hard when we were around other people, particularly ILs, because DS's tantrums took the form of crying rather than angry displays and so everyone assumed something awful had happened to upset him (not to mention that we were being REALLY cruel). As a result they would secretly placate him with sweets, chocolate, new toys and generally allowing him to do all the things that we told him he couldn't. It set us back quite a bit because it was undermining what we were trying to do and, had we not discovered what was happening, we would have been completely disheartened probably making us give up.

It does sound a little harsh (certainly the ILs thought so) but things are just things. Treating toys like a privilage for good behaviour rather than as a human right is far more preferable than spanking, ostracising or removal of affection. DS may not have liked having to earn his toys back but he never doubted for a moment that he was utterly loved, wanted and cherished. Just toyless!

 

[Cheshire]

Our 4 yo went through the same thing. He'll be 5 soon and it is much better. Just as your daughter is doing he would get so upset over things that were beyond our control (a shirt being dirty in the laundry, etc.).

I think it is just a phase they go through around that age where they are really learning to process disappointment and how to deal with it. It's been a long year. DS didn't have terrible twos, his threes were a little tougher but four has been very hard for him. Seeing him come out on the other side and knowing that he has learned how to calm himself down makes me think his fives might be a little easier.

I know it is hard but remember that DD will learn how to calm herself and a big help for that is having calm parents help her when she's upset. Sometimes they just need space to let it all out and sometimes they need to be held. It's funny, our son learned to tell us "I just need to get it out" when he was crying - he would have accepted that the frustrating thing wasn't going to change and he knew that he just needed to cry, get it out and he'd feel better.

Also, when she's upset just empathize with her, you don't have to explain why she can't have the shirt again unless she asks why. My son hates the word "but" so when he's upset I've learned that if I just say "I know you're upset/disappointed that you can't wear your favorite shirt today" that's all I needed to say. If I added "but, it's in the laundry" it would send him over the edge again.

Oh, when she's calmed down talk to her about if she is feeling hungry. Our son is learning to recognize when he is overly tired or hungry when having a fit. We'll remind him part of the reason he is feeling out of control is because he is tired (this is usually our case because he is moving away from naps) and to recognize that and be easier on himself.

I think it is totally normal at this age but if you feel that it is more than go with your gut. Mom's know best.

Best wishes.

 

[Astrogirl]

Thanks Cheshire - it means a lot just to hear that others have gone through this. I think it must be a bit of a shock for those of us who never had to go through the "twos" or the tantrums. Even when she was two, she said things like "I just need to have a cry". I thought that would mean she would always be so easily in touch with her own emotions. She's always been good about being able to voice whats wrong (i.e. once she told me that she can't think straight when someone is angry at her). Its hard for me to understand what appears to be going backwards in progression.

I did ask her after a crying fit (about 2 hours later) yesterday about why she thought she was crying so much. She wasn't able to pinpoint why, but agreed with me when I suggested that it was due to hunger. But that may not be true either, it may just be that she really can't pinpoint it, and hunger is the easiest thing to explain. I asked her if she agreed that from now on she should eat more so that her belly didn't hurt and she agreed to that as well. But sure enough today, she didn't want to eat. She will actually let herself get so hungry that she gets woozy and I always feel caught between the "just leave her alone, she'll eat" crowd and the "you've got to do something about this, this isn't good" crowd.

I think you are right, that she needs to learn about disappointment. And maybe i need to learn that she's not protesting, but maybe expressing her disappointment? And I will try to cut out using the word "But". Maybe thats whats setting some of it off. I probably make this mistake of thinking I can reason with her when she's just expressing disappointment. She already knows the shirt is in the wash, I probably should just leave it at that.

FWIW, I talked to our nanny today at lunch about it, and she thinks she is just fine (because she's fine around her and at kindergarten). She thinks she is just testing us and will talk more about it with me later when the kids aren't around. I hope shes right - if it is just her testing us, how should i respond?

 

[Cheshire]

Kids "test" us all the time. Just respond with your normal loving boundaries and full support. You don't have to fix her disappointment, just let her know you are there if she needs you.

I think 4 brings a whole new set of emotions and growth to deal with. Kids aren't babies or toddlers anymore and dealing with these new feelings can be overwhelming. I know there are many times that my son is completely devastated over the smallest thing - at least it seems like a small thing to me but for him it is huge. He's never had to deal with something like it before and is learning how to process it all.

DS is also pretty mature for his age and has been good about identifying his emotions but 4 really brought out a whole host of stronger ones for him. He's learned that throwing a tantrum for something that he wants us to give him won't work. I'll usually ask him "do you really think crying/whining about it will get you what you want?" Sometimes he stops crying and communicates with us in a more controlled manner and other times he needs to just let it out more. We roll with it. I think helping him label that he is disappointed has given him he ability to identify it in himself. And, talking about it after he's calmed down helps, too. Reminding him that he's been disappointed before and the world didn't end helps him put it in perspective.

Growing up is tough. Hugs to you guys.

 

[HappilyEvrAfter]

Honestly, I think kids go through cyclical hormonal/mental development shifts that alter their behavior across the board in almost the same way.

It's amazing, if you look at this board as a whole (and other boards as well, I'm sure), kids from all different backgrounds seem to go through extremely similar situations at about the same time no matter what their previous upbringing or previous disposition.

I'm sure somewhere in child psychology it's addressed, but I'm no child psychologist.

 

[wish]

Just wanted to share that I am in the same boat with my dd!! Lots of fits over things that are out of my control ("there is paint on the ceiling from the wall and it's going to take over the whole ceiling!"), and this leads to lots of crying. It also tends to go tangentially to another topic. I think this happens for her for the same reasons, hungry and over tired. We are also discovering a new bit of sassiness coming on...."whatever", "if you don't do __ right now..." fun things like that.

When they get like this is it ok to let them just have sometime alone? I try to comfort her, but it almost makes it worse. Also, not sure what a good response is to the sassy/rude remarks she's started making??

 

[octobermom]

Mine does this and shes is 6

Shes naturally dramatic and very in the moment and super logical the combo often clashes and we get very dramatic meltdowns over little things like a cup being in the dishwasher and not avaiable etc. This may or may not be liked here but I've learned the more I spend "reflecting" and validating her feeling the worse it gets. So while I in no way belittle or shame her I really respond with little emotion and a matter of fact response. The cups in the diswasher the dishwasher is running I can pour your juice in another cup or you can wait. No ohh I know its disapointing or I understand you want your pink cup, no get over it its just a cup ect but matter of fact. Honestly she resonds a lot better I think cause it appeals to her logical side oh mommys not upset I guess I can move on as well. It still happens more times that I care but the dram does linger so much.

Deanna

 

[ChocolateNummies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrogirl As an example, this morning she said she wanted to put on her blue shirt, but her blue shirt was in the washing machine. She freaked out and cried and sobbed. I sympathize with her, repeat back to her what I know she wants, and then explain why its not possible. She cries even louder. In the past 2 weeks, this has been happening about 4 times a day about various issues, most of which are impossible.

In situations like this, I would have said. "Your shirt is in the wash. It's too wet/dirty to wear. But, hey, go check and if it's clean and dry you can wear it." Same with any impossible situation. "Sorry, we're out of applesauce, but if you can find some then you can have it." And so on. Then it's no longer "my fault" for not allowing something. I let them figure it out for themselves. Worked around here but of course ymmv.

The hunger thing is so hard. Huge, huge trigger for my kids. More so, it seems, than for other kids I know. I'll usually tack on to the above a "You seem hungry. Let me know when you're ready to eat. I know I get cranky/stressed/easily upset when I'm hungry and eating helps me handle things better."

 

[Astrogirl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by octobermom Mine does this and shes is 6 Shes naturally dramatic and very in the moment and super logical the combo often clashes and we get very dramatic meltdowns over little things like a cup being in the dishwasher and not avaiable etc. This may or may not be liked here but I've learned the more I spend "reflecting" and validating her feeling the worse it gets. So while I in no way belittle or shame her I really respond with little emotion and a matter of fact response. The cups in the diswasher the dishwasher is running I can pour your juice in another cup or you can wait. No ohh I know its disapointing or I understand you want your pink cup, no get over it its just a cup ect but matter of fact. Honestly she resonds a lot better I think cause it appeals to her logical side oh mommys not upset I guess I can move on as well. It still happens more times that I care but the dram does linger so much. Deanna

This is about how I am feeling too. Too much validating does seem to prolong the conversation. Also, a lot of the threads around here mention not saying things like "Stop Crying", but sometimes I have to wonder - is there not a time and an age where we have to correct them and get the lesson across: "Crying isn't the way to go, and I'm not going to listen to it anymore"? These are moments not when she is crying to express her frustration, but sometimes I think shes crying because its the loudest and most attention grabbing.

 

[ShwarmaQueen]

DD is doing the same thing. Since she's so mature, I sometimes forget that she is still a young child who is learning how things work. The best thing to do is to hug her and let her know you understand why she's upset.

 

[octobermom]

I don't say stop crying (well I try

) but I will sometimes say you may stop crying now in a it's okay to stop it will really be okay voice VS geez enough you can STOP already.
DD is extrememly visual we actually discovered a long time ago that sitting her down someplace with a timer helped a lot. Being anti "timeout" especially a timed sit here for 5 mintues and think abut what you did but then we realized something with DD need for a visual reffrence she can't "argue" with it actually helped her calm and a timer with numbers she can visually see counting down calms her it like both validates her feeling but also says when I ding its okay to move on. Sometimes AP parenting means really looking outside the box so it might seem odd to be here and hear me saying your getting really upset do you need to take 3 (3 mintes on a timer) and realize I'm comforting not scolding her.

Deanna

 

[pumpkinseed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChocolateNummies In situations like this, I would have said. "Your shirt is in the wash. It's too wet/dirty to wear. But, hey, go check and if it's clean and dry you can wear it." Same with any impossible situation. "Sorry, we're out of applesauce, but if you can find some then you can have it." And so on. Then it's no longer "my fault" for not allowing something. I let them figure it out for themselves. Worked around here but of course ymmv.

I really like this-need to try it with my 4.5 yr old. I am at my whit's end today and came on here for some encouragement.

 

[rzberrymom]

When my 4 year old does this kind of thing, I just hold her and murmur something that sounds empathetic--it's kind of a "hmmm-mmmh." It might sound crazy, but often these things are over much more quickly if I *don't* explain it to her, if I *don't* try to show her the logic, but rather just hold her and let her know wordlessly that I understand how upset she is. I feel like she often knows the logic, and it just makes her more furious to hear it from me.

You're not alone!

 

[sharon.gmc]

I wish I could help you with your problem.