Is this normal?

That should not be tolerated in any school....period! :

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My friend has actually tried prior to this recent incident to set up a play date with them. She even said to the mother that she believes they could get past their differences if they spent time one on one together. The other mother was not interested.

I will advise her to keep discussing the situation with the teacher. She is also thinking of requesting her son be switched to a different teacher next year since their are 4 classes for that grade. Besides the issue with this other child she is thinking that this may not be the right teacher for her son.

Thank you for all your feedback ladies. I was at a loss as to what to tell her because I do not have any personal experience with Waldorf.

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What is suppose to happen then? :

I agree with Rhonwyn. I have about 40 years of experience with waldorf, as a student, parent, administrator and now grandparent and I've never once had a teacher use karma as a reason to abstain from interfering with bullying or any other problem between children.

When I was going to public schools I was regularly bullied. No teacher ever noticed, much less interfered. This was in the 50s and 60s and I believe there wasn't much awareness among teachers. In gym class bullying was even encouraged. Gym class was an opportunity for the rest of the kids to pick on the brainy kids.

When I was 14 I moved to a waldorf school. In the two years I spent there I was never once bullied or harassed. In the 13 years my daughter spent in two waldorf schools she had one problem with teasing, in HS. The kids involved ended up leaving the school.

So the teachers in this particular situation may be incompetent, but I doubt if a belief in karma plays into the problem at all. It is just another club to attack waldorf. It is effective to raise a concern about bullying in a waldorf school in exactly the same way it would be raised in any other school. First by talking to the teacher and then, if that doesn't quickly resolve the problem, going up to the next level of authority. In some schools that would be the chair, sometimes in a larger school the "level" chair, sometimes the college chair, sometimes the administrator. Who to go to should be explained in the parent handbook, and if it isn't, that is another concern to raise.

Deborah (Nana)

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It has been my experience that, depending on the teacher, bullying is allowed for some time to run its course. I sincerely believe this is based on the Anthroposophical belief in karma and a reasoning that says the students have karma together that needs to be worked out. The extent to which this is allowed to continue, varies from teacher to teacher and school to school - but it happens and it is my understanding that it is fairly common.

Pete

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From my experience, it is not common. Our school, in particular, has had several Waldorf speakers come and address the issue of bullying. How to recognize it and how to handle it. At every single workshop I have attended, not once has karma been used as an excuse to allow bullying to continue.

I can only speak for the Kindergarten classes and the two classes my children are a part of, but in none of them was bullying allowed to continue. There was some letting the children work things out but when situations came to the point where it was obvious that this was not working, the teachers or parents around, stepped in. A no blame policy of working with the receiver and the giver, has worked very well in the Kindergarten classes and the 2 grade school classes I have directly observed. The 'all doors are open' policy the Kindergarten teachers, whom our family was with for 5 years between two children, worked very well. I won't say everything was sweetness and light, but when problems arose, they were adressed and not allowed to fester.

My dd was a victim this past year in preschool of a "Queen Bee" bully who did the same thing - divided up all the girls, told each one whom they could play with and what they could play, hovered, manipulated, bullied and harrassed the kids, mostly the girls. The teachers said they did believe there was karma at work, but that they would guide my dd to help her come into her own strength so she could meet the challenge, but as far as I can tell, they just forgot all about it and let it continue. In the class next door there is a boy bully who had similar tactics.

The mothers of three girls in our class all compared notes and we all had the same experiences with the teachers' noncommittal attitude. Five boys in the other class dropped out last year due to that same boy because essentially the parents were told that the boy had to work it out and the teachers were not going to do anything to stop him.

On the other hand, the preschool dd went to in the U.S. from 2002-2004 was totally different, where the teacher was very proactive in stopping the dominant kids from bullying. She was also much more culturally aware and less traditionally Waldorf than the teachers here (Eastern Europe). So I think it really is individual on the part of the teacher and whether the school community is progressive or more orthodox.

Again, I can only speak for our school, but at our school there is recognition that bullying is not a good thing and it is not allowed to go on with karma as the excuse. The children are encouraged to work things out but with guidance from the teacher or other adults. As the children get older, many of this situations are handled in class meetings with the children policing themselves.

I will say that rough play is allowed but is watched closely to make sure that it is okay with all parties. If someone didn't want to be a part of it, the class was expected to let that party not participate without any reprecussions. My son has been on the receiving end of rough play (wrestling on the ground) but he is not usually the instigator. His teacher (in private) has asked him repeatedly if he was okay with it. He always said 'Yes, it is fun!'. She was concerned that he was just saying that to be part of the group so she came to us and talked about it, seeking to make sure that he really was okay with it. We talked with him and because we know our son, we were able to confirm that he really was okay with it and actually enjoyed it. The wrestling lasted maybe a couple of months before the boys moved on to something else. It seemed to be something that they needed to do to get it out of their system. I was glad that the teacher kept a very close eye on it but allowed it to continue. I believe it was a release for them after summer until they could settle down in school and without the wrestling, many of the boys would have had discipline issues in the classroom.

One of the reasons I like Waldorf, is that they let the kids climb trees, etc and stretch themselves physically.

There's sometimes a fine line between being authoritative and bullying. Waldorf teachers tend to have problems with independent-thinking children. My personal experience has been that Waldorf teachers can become the bullies. In my child's class, the teacher had lost favor with (the respect of) the children - at least half the class hated her (and she deserved it IMO). One child was more vocal than the other children and the teacher chose to make things difficult on her - making her run laps in the hot sun and giving her dirty looks when nobody was looking. In one case the teacher came into the girl's restroom and seeing a huge mess that the child had nothing to do with, forced her and her friend to clean up the entire restroom. After the teacher was finally fired (after months of the other teachers circling the wagons around her) the girl was seen laughing in the hallway (I'm told about something unrelated) and it was assumed by another teacher that the children were discussing the firing of their teacher. The child was told she would have to work the entire day in the garden (Southern California in June = 90-100 degrees). A parent stepped in and stopped the punishment. I feel strongly that bullying of children extends to teachers and administrators.

Pete

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I can kind of understand it I suppose. One kid does a little pestering - a little shove here, a little punch there. The other kid says "knock it off" and the first kid stops for a while. Then starts up again - maybe a little more forceful - and so on. I can see this happening and building up over the course of a week. Again, I would have stepped in sooner.

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Oh, yes! Absolutely. One cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater - karma, as provided in the wisdom traditions, is not karma as provided in Anthroposophy.

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And, again, I don't know if it is a "policy" per se, or just a practice that is deemed acceptable by some teachers. Teachers (most teachers) believe (are taught) that every child in their class is there because of a karmic connection with the teacher and the class.

Pete