[Marlena]

Oh sh!t:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2003Oct5.html

Quote:

The Israeli Air Force bombed a target deep inside neighboring Syria early today in retaliation for a deadly suicide bombing in Israel a day earlier, threatening to escalate the three-year-old Palestinian uprising into a larger, regional conflict. Israeli military sources said the 3 a.m. attack targeted a training camp about 10 miles northwest of the capital of Damascus that was used by several Palestinian groups, including the radical Islamic Jihad, which asserted responsibility for Saturday's suicide bombing at a bustling seaside restaurant in Haifa in which at least 19 people were killed. It was the first such attack inside Syria in 26 years, Israeli security sources said. In Washington, President called Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and they "agreed on the need to continue fighting terrorism," White House spokesman Ken Lisaius said, according to Reuters.

We'll reap what we've sown. The friggin'

s in the White House and the House should blow THEMSELVES to Armaggedon if that's what they want, and leave the rest of us in peace.

 

[JessicaS]

Oh no.

Syria will likely retaliate.

 

[mahdokht]

***

 

[mahdokht]

duplicate

 

[JessicaS]

I removed the dup.

Oh, I didn't think they would use their army..but it is still scary.

 

[DebraBaker]

What NM said.

+ I didn't notice the UN condemning the homocide attack of innocent Israeli citizens (including four children!!)

DB

 

[3boys4us]

Actually the UN did condemn the suicide attack. And it condemned the Israeli strike.

The problem here is that Israel has the blessing of the US (who has not condemned the attack) - now how will that play in the Arab world?

Finally what about soveriegnity of nations and this strike? It apparently means nothing to Israel and the US - IMO you reap what you sow - if the US can't and won't control Israel - how it plays in the Arab world (and more importantly in the MUslim world which is much larger) will be a concern.

What proof did Israel give for the strike?

Quote:

Where does Israel get its military equipment, planes and bombs from?

Why it gets the majority of them from the good old US of A (along with a few other nations) along with 3$ billion of my tax dollars. Where is US taxpayer outrage over that I wonder?

 

[Marlena]

Civilized nations in the modern era aren't supposed to go bombing other sovereign nations because of perceived threats, harboring of "terrorist" camps, and the like. This is why we have bodies like the UN. By becoming a renegade nation, the US is encouraging other countries to commit rash acts that are likely to lead to an escalation of tensions and, ultimately, violence.

I do hope, NM, that Israel genuinely has its ducks in order on this one, and can set forth incontrovertable proof that the strikes were absolutely necessary in order to protect its residents and borders. If it instead offers namby-pamby evidence, as the US did in justification for its incursions, then you should expect all hell to ultimately break loose.

 

[madrone]

This was an abandoned base. Syria shut it down because they were afraid of being attacked over it.

 

[madrone]

Wanted to add something. I don't know exactly what. Just in hearing about the kibbutz family, I'm sad. This entire cycle is just so stupid and horrible. Why can't the involved parties see it for what it is instead of always wanting vengeance? Not a question I'm wanting answered. Just babble.

 

[Marlena]

Thanks, madrone, for the info. Here's a link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/06/in...st/06MIDE.html

Quote:

Israel said the airstrike target, which it identified as the Ain Saheb camp, is about 10 miles northwest of Damascus, and had served as a training ground for several Palestinian factions, including Islamic Jihad and Hamas, the groups behind most of the suicide bombings in Israel. Syria dismissed the Israeli claim, calling it a civilian facility for Palestinians. Also, Islamic Jihad said it had no "military presence" in Syria. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, a radical group that has been largely dormant in recent years, said the base belonged to its organization, but had been deserted for years, according to The Associated Press. Israeli officials described the air raid as a limited operation and acknowledged it would not diminish Islamic Jihad's overall ability to carry out attacks.

Unless further evidence comes to light, it looks like your initial assessment was incorrect, NM. It's too bad - it would certainly bode at least a little better if Israel had clear justification for the strike.

 

[Marg of Arabia]

Quote:

The problem here is that Israel has the blessing of the US (who has not condemned the attack) - now how will that play in the Arab world?

Exactly what I am worried about, 3boys4us!

My first thought upon hearing this news yesterday was BACKLASH!

This is just the kind of action that could ignite places like Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

Very scary times.............

 

[Marlena]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nursing Mother 1) if the camp was deserted, why was it guarded? and 2) if only two guards there, then why more than one ambulance, as reported? Could it have been an underground facility like footage from Iranian television is showing? I guess they are showing that footage on cable news now.

To answer you with another question: why, then, does even Israel officially admit that the strike will "not diminish Islamic Jihad's overall ability to carry out attacks"?



Quote:

Tomorrow we will most likely read in the headline. "Israel strikes training camp, and kills hundreds of innocent youths." Remember the Jenen incident a year or so ago? The gross exaggeration was astounding :

I seriously doubt it.



Quote:

You are right. It would be nice NOT to have to fight things out this way. But look at what Israel is dealing with. Men and women willing to kill themselves for the blood of civilians. This most recent suicide bomber said it was over revenge for her brother who was killed by the IDF. Well the article I read failed to say he was a member of Islamic-Jihad, a well known terrorist group.

I read that both the woman's brother and cousin were killed by the IDF last summer, and that both were allegedly members of Islamic Jihad. Who's to say? Regardless, though, look at what's happening here: violence is being met with violence. The woman blew up herself and a whole lot of people innocently sitting in a cafe because she was angry/thrown into dispair over the killing of her family members. Those family members were allegedly killed due to their alleged association with a terrorist organization. If they really were members of this terrorist organization, they perhaps joined it because they saw no other way to help their people be able to live their lives with any modicum of liberty and dignity - qualities denied to them under the present Israeli regime (and those past). And Israel is attempting to stamp out the organization because it murders innocent people in terrorist attacks. And so on and so on.



Quote:

I see that Israel has no other choice. Diplomatic attempts have not worked. Arafat is still a criminal on the loose, who fails to do nothing to stop the killings. (well by words he does, but not actions). Really now, what other recourse does Israel have?

Nonsense. Israel and its neighbors are going to have to learn to get along, if they wish to survive. Israel has only rarely attempted genuine diplomatic solutions, rather seeking instead to force their will upon others. As the US will likely soon learn, as well, this method can only lead ultimately to disaster.

 

[3boys4us]

Quote:

It would be nice NOT to have to fight things out this way. But look at what Israel is dealing with. Men and women willing to kill themselves for the blood of civilians. This most recent suicide bomber said it was over revenge for her brother who was killed by the IDF. Well the article I read failed to say he was a member of Islamic-Jihad, a well known terrorist group. I see that Israel has no other choice. Diplomatic attempts have not worked. Arafat is still a criminal on the loose, who fails to do nothing to stop the killings. (well by words he does, but not actions). Really now, what other recourse does Israel have?

Actually it's not just nice but it's part of the global community in which Israel plans to do business in. As Marlena has noted Israel has rarely mediated it's confrontations - instead going right for use of force. The "war" in which Israel claims to be fighting now is hardly going their way (with the exception of the mass stealing of property along the new fence). If a heavily subsidized and armed Israel cannot force the suicide bombers to stop by use of force and retaliation what makes it likely that it will win the battle for minds of the world at large?

Indian newspapers have largely condemned Israel over this attack - right after Sharon made a successful economic visit to India.

 

[3boys4us]

Quote:

I don't think we are going to talk or charm the Islamists -- who by Daniel Pipes' estimate number around 150 million - 200 million -- into acting like humans, with a sense of quickly gathered morality and acceptance of Jews

Can you elaborate? Are you talking about Muslims in general or right wing fundamentalists?

It is an important point that Islam is poised to take over as the world's fastest growing religion (and already is in the US). Perhaps the US and Israel should remember that as they fight the PR war.

As the Israel has been more and more aggressive with the Palestinians more and more moderate Muslims have been become polarized. Remember prior to the 2000 Intifada Israel was trading peacefully with several Arab nations around it (but mostly Egypt). Their continued use of over the top force had ruined their economic stability and their ability to do business in ME as well as several Asian nations where Islam is predominant.

 

[3boys4us]

Quote:

As for the Palestianians. They deserve a country too....there is plenty of Arab land and countries around. Why can't they be simulated into another Arab states?

Why should they? Most of them have been in that area for generations - the correlation would be to say why don't white Americans go back to Europe - they could easily be absorbed and there is plenty of land to go around.

 

[DebraBaker]

I think NM means radical fundie Muslims not Muslims in general (the Fundies being a small fraction of the much larger (than 200 million) people, I think there are well over one billion Muslims on the earth and I think we can agree the vast majority are average folk who want to live in peace like most of the rest of us.)

I think it would be appropriate for the surrounding Arab states to give the Palestinians some ajoining property as well because the initial UN charter (that created Israel) created a two state division of the British controlled land (Palestine) one being Arab (Jordan) the other Jewish (Israel). When the Palestinians were originally dispossessed (I'm sure there is a better word) there were an equal number of Jews kicked out of Arab nations. The nation of Isreal quickly assimilated these refugee Jews into Israel and they have (generally) prospered. The Arab nations have been content to allow the poor Palestinians to fester in refugee camps.

There is enough blame (for the condition of the Palestinians) to go around (I don't think Israel is perfect but their faults pale in comparason to some of the other players in this mess.)

Part of the problem with Israel is they must "play nice" with others who declare their intention to destroy the very existance of a Jewish state.

Debra Baker

 

[Marlena]

There are some significant issues with much of what NM and DB said. I've almost no time right now, so I'll work as quickly as possible:

Quote:

Soon, I believe,Israel will be faced with some very tough decisions. (if they haven't already). It's clear that the US will advise Israel to continue absorbing mass murder attacks with only token responses of "restraint" ( and something of course we would never put up with if these mass suicides happened on our soil) so as not to make the Arab/Muslim world, which is obsessed with Jew hatred, mad. Israel is damed is she does, and damed if she doesn't. What a state to be in. I think they clearly understand that the objective of the Islamic terrorist is to drive thier country into the sea, not simple to live-together on the land. Are not there many Arabs to do live peacefully in Israel?

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you been elsewhere in the Middle East? If so, have you spoken at length with a wide number of Palestinians and Arabs? While I was there, I never got the impression that "the Arab/Muslim world is obsessed with Jew hatred." In fact, many Palestinians and secular and Reform Jews told me that Muslims and Jews have far more in common - in terms of origins, history and interests - than do either of the two with Christians. Don't believe everything that the conservative-biased media tells you.

Quote:

The leaders had better wake up fast. I don't think we are going to talk or charm the Islamists -- who by Daniel Pipes' estimate number around 150 million - 200 million -- into acting like humans, with a sense of quickly gathered morality and acceptance of Jews, especially Jewish women and children, (who they seem to target). We need to send them a message they can understand, and I'm afraid that the longer it takes us to do that the more likely that message will be soaked in the blood of both Jews and Arabs.

This paragraph does not deserve the dignity of a response. Once you start characterizing people as sub-human or non-human, things really - REALLY - start to go downhill.

Quote:

Uness of course we are willing to see the Jews scattered again and or facing another sort of holocaust. I believe as in the story of Masada.....they would rather die together on their given land, then face the brutality of a world that has persecuted them for centuries.

Quite possibly so. And for the most part, Christians have been responsible for their persecution over the ages. Curious, that.

Quote:

...As for the Palestianians. They deserve a country too....there is plenty of Arab land and countries around. Why can't they be simulated into another Arab states? The peaceful Palestianians will be welcome in Israel (and have in the past). To me it seems (as I said before) they want ALL the land (ridden of Jews) for themselves and will settle for nothing less. What more can one think?

There are thousands upon thousands of Palestinians living in Jordan, in particular, and elsewhere. The Palestinians are generally not welcome in any Arab state of which I am familiar (please correct me, someone, if I'm wrong). I know for certain they are not welcome in Jordan, and are barely tolerated. The Palestinians are truly a stateless people under the present circumstances. The land they were supposed to receive under the British division of Palestine was effectively taken from them by Israel. The situation will not improve until they are given back their land, or some other just and fair division is made. They need their sovereignity and the ability to lead their own lives in peace - just as do the Israelis (whether Jew or Muslim or Christian or atheist or other).

 

[Marg of Arabia]

Marlena, you are so patient with your responses.

I tend to avoid sharing my true thoughts on this situation. I know where that road leads.

O.K. having said that, I will go ahead and share a few of my "true" thoughts.........(stupid, I know!)

Our country gives more money to Israel than to any other country in the world. Israel receives more support and $ than any other one state from the U.S. gov't. We have made it abundantly clear to the world that we are siding with Israel. Our media (IMHO) is totally slanted in their coverage of the conflict. Of course the female suicide bomber's actions were evil and wrong. As are the evil actions of the Israeli army against the Palestinians. We have argued several threads on who is right or wrong, evil or good, justified or unjustified. It gets us nowhere.

Israel pre-emptively struck Syria. Our president as made an example of pre-emptive strikes being the newest style of foreign policy! This is a dangerous new move. We all know what happened the last time these countries went to war.........It achieved nothing but killed many.

The following link is a good one. BTW, these suicide bombers believe they justified in their attacks. EXAMPLE:

QUOTE:
"The Haifa bomber was a 29-year-old female lawyer from Jenin, Hanadi Tayssir Jaradat, whose brother Fadi Jaradat and cousin Saleh Jaradat were killed in an Israeli army operation on June 12."

Her family members were killed in front of her. I do not condone her actions. These people are committing evil acts against innocent Israelis. But it will not stop unless people make the effort to understand why these bombings are happening.

I do not think many Americans hear about some of the evil attacks the Israeli army as carried out against the Palestinian people. I do not think most Americans know how many innocent Palestinian lives have been lost. We really only get one side of the story in the ~MAINSTREAM~ news here. Americans will not hear that the target in Syria was an old abandoned terrorist training base. The media makes it sound like a fully functioning, IMMEDIATE THREAT terrorist base responsible for recent suicide bombings.

So, I have shared some of my thoughts on the situation. I may get flamed(will) but, I have been very alarmed about recent events and it feels better to get it all out here! Instability in the M.E., new terrorist attacks on our soil and more suicide bombings will result from the actions Israel (and America) have taken. What a HUGE step backwards......

marg

Here is a pretty good article:

http://www.spacewar.com/2003/031007123002.kfxn919w.html

 

[3boys4us]

Here's a good editorial:

Quote:

Israel must return to the so-called Green Line -- the border before the 1967 Six Day War. It must dismantle most of the settlements. It must do this because occupation is corrupting and, in the long run, impossible. The more Israel expands or retains settlements, the more it gets stuck in a quagmire where the enemy is everywhere. From September 2000 until recently, some 17,400 attacks were recorded in the territories -- and 40 percent of all fatalities. Even when terrorists struck in Israel proper, they invariably came from the West Bank.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

And here'a another good one:

Quote:

The US and Israel have managed to make themselves more hated and despised in today's world than ever before. They already have far more insubordination and chaos on their hands than they can possibly handle. Yet they continue to behave like the newly blinded Cyclopses, groping for more enemies to kill. Hitting Syria, as the Israelis have just done, or Iran, as the Americans keep threatening to do, is not the answer - reading the writing on the wall is: occupation never lasts.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...103677,00.html

Quote:

Part of the problem with Israel is they must "play nice" with others who declare their intention to destroy the very existance of a Jewish state.

I think this is old news - Israel hasn't lost any of the wars they fought against Me countries. The "war" they face now is over the minds of the people - Israel as the predominant nation. IMO it's hard to be the victim if you're the one with all the money and weapons.