Well, just read Heidi's last post from the previous thread (25 pages was getting a bit large, tho), and now I'm all charged up... bad because it's 2am. Anyway, I wasn't a women's studies major, and am not in the health care profession or the mama/baby profession, so this is a TOTALLY unprofessional opinion, but I am a mama, so it's not exactly out my ar$$ either...
I think it's a MAJOR conflict of interest. I don't know how mamas do it. Putting kids into ANY day care is a compromise, even a really good nurturing one. BUT it's usually not all bad. day care kids, especially ones from part time day care backgrounds are often VERY well adjusted and have a great sense of who they are in the world. This may develop more slowly for a child very attached to family/parent. OTOH, it's possible that too much leaves a baby/child feeling really lonely/abandoned and not having had a childhood supported by family and loved in a way that communicates QUANTITY of time is at LEAST as important as Quality. W/kids it's all about how MANY times they can get mom/dad to LOOK AT ME and see them swing again and again...but that's really important! Also, as they get older and kind of stop talking altogether, the am't of time spent listening can be really super important. So...
Ideally work env'ts would have a day care option available w/in the walls, or an open-ish env't so that kids could come and go more or less. Like they have at Mothering. Yk, I read that article, and it didn't mention too many OTHER places where that kind of child rearing is an option.
Heidi - what about getting some other mamas w/babies into the office and hiring someone to watch the bambinos together? Maybe having 3-4 part timers would pay off in the end? Just one idea...
Wow. Heavy stuff that I want to reply to, but am too tired to/ don't have the right words for. I really know what you all mean, though. I'm not in the birth field or anything, but I'm really torn between being an interesting mama that does lots of cool things for herslef, and being a super devoted mama that puts it all into her kids. I think you can do both -lets face it, you HAVE to do both if you want your kids to come out right. But thats always not so easy to just do.
the balance is soooo hard to find. with the birth stuff it's esp hard since the hours are so unpredictable. If I could work somewhere, doing what i do, and know i'd be gone from say 9-6 or whatever, then it might be doable. but the unpredictability makes it hard- and when your midwifing, you can't just call in sick when yoa need to.
working mamas can raise great kids and do an awesome job. there's no question about it! day care is NOT evil. kids need love and they can get it from all kinds of places. dh and I were talking about how when I was growing up my dad owned his own business and was gone all the time. But I don't remember him NOT being there . I just remember him being a great dad.
my thoughts are not feeling too coherent. yes, this stuff is heavy. it's hard to be a mama and be your own person. BUT, as a mama who was supposedly "finished", I can say that there will be a time where you are NOT your children's EVERYTHING. I wasn't anyones everything for at least 4 years before Luka was born.
It took me too long to write- I just moved this over!
oops- I am like chatting away here, tonight...took a break to pee and nurse the baby, I love the little potty chair we got form the EC store!
Anyway, Andy, on my birth and c-sections...I haven't written up my birth story, and am just coming around to being able to deal, cause physically it just knocked me out and thats all I had space for with the new baby and all. So, I have really a really good back up doc for the center and count on getting appropriate low tech care when I have someone transfer. So that was what I expected when my birth got long and dragged out due to a weird baby position. Jessi, Annie, Karen, and it sounds like Lisa all had the classic long hard first timer birth as I did- and they all had vaginal births. Hard first time births happen sometimes, and that is where the skill of the provider, and the art of getting a baby out comes in. I made the decision to transfer when we were in good shape and I had some reserves left so I could get pitocin and maybe vacuum extractor, thinking I needed to go before I was totally pooped so I could have the energy to push. Iris was high in the pelivs and we made the decison to break the bag at home and see what happens in one hour. There was light meconium (normal for being overdue) but she stayed high in the pelvis and seemed to have her head in a funny position, and then contractions stopped.. so when the hour was up we thought it would also be a good thing to have the contious monitoring to check baby that was high as the water was all rushing out, and ther ewer eno contractions any longer so why wait around? (I had Jessi in my mind as I made my choices- thinking i would do what I had to do to give birth to this babe!). But when we called in we were surprised to realize my back up doc was on vacation and we got a total prick of a doc instead. He didn't look at me, evaluate me, or look at my records- he just said homebirth transfer+overdue+light meconium= c-section, no discussion possible. He also implied the baby was no longer doing good, and it would be an emergency c-section. He was a jerk, and actually seemed EVIL to everyone in his tone, and the way he spoke to us. After being in total shock, I mean I have never had one of my clients treated that badly ever, and we were not prepared to be adversarial because the care we usually get is so good, this just took us all by big surprise. After some debate I accepted because the chances that we were headed to a section were good and I felt I had no other choice. But in retrospect, the hard part is we see where we did have choices- we could have refused his care (we didn;t cause I know how the hospital works and there was no one else on the floor to take us- it is not a teaching hospital or anything, it's was him or the ER doc), my regular back up doc called the next day and said why didn't you call me at home I would have in in special for you even though I was off call, and we all were in alot of pain thinking we had taken crap from this asshole, didn't explore out every option, and it cost me a cut on my uterus and Iris her birth. I took lots of comfort in a big dent in Iris's head where she was ramming up against my pelivic bones, a crooked dent that makes me think labor was long because of her bad position, and very likely pitocin really wouldn't have helped anyway. And if Iris wa sin borderline shape as the doc implied, I was totally okay with a section if my baby couldn't handle labor anymore, and it had been a long time and one of the reaosns we were there was to get her on the monitor to get a look at the finer points of how she was doing. But I got my records and the doc lied a number of times in the records to justify the section- baby was actually fine. SO, honestly I will never know if I could have just pushed her out if I had an encouraging doctor, was given some fluids to rehydrate after being in the tub alot and getting overheated, and a whiff of pitocin, maybe a vaccum or epidural. The crummiest part is feeling like the doc was being venegful, refusing to give me care, and then lied to in my medical record to justify his decisons. He never even interacted with me enough to realize I am a midwfe and own the birth center- he found out after the surgery. He didn't apply one iota of brain power to evaluating how to best help me, but once he saw what had happened- he pushed a midwife into an unnecessary c-section it was like he virtually had his lawyer write the medical note to make the c-section look justified when the facts just don't hold up. He actually made up a few things-like that I had an excessive fundal height (but he never looked at or even got my prenatal records, and they didn't measure me and he never got closer tha n5 feet away from me so he had no way of knowing what my fundal height was) so it looked like he was dong it becuae I had a big baby. The next day when i confronted him he got ugly about it trying t omake me feel badly by saying "here you were big as a house and you wanted me to give you pit? That was A) not true B)just abusive and uncalled for! So, good care would hve been to go one more step in the rubric of appropriate level of care before a c-section was actually justified- I needed pit, then maybe an epidural, then maybe vacuum then maybe csection. My cousins were cases of not waiting it out and trying to get their labors to go faster than a natural first time labor does, and for the cousin that gave birth yesterday, the pitocin caused her baby to react badly, so then once they had pitted her she was no longer going to have strong natural contractions, and they weren' going to let her wait around and gain momentum on her own so they just did a section. At home, she would have waited until strong natural labor kicked in and barring any other concerns, would have probably had a nice normal birth. It was the rush to get her started since she was already in the hosiptal that messed her birth up. She just needed a bit and time and space most likely, to warm up to the labor. Who knows what would have happened if her body was able to labor as it would naturally- the natural contractions would probably not have caused the distress that lead to the decision for a section.
So. It sucks. I had to believe early on my c-section was needed so I could move on. As I said I grasped at the fact that there were things and signs that say she maybe wasn't coming no matter what we did, the weird labor pattern, her staying high in my pelvis, the particular way my hips hurt with each contraction, and the big dent in her head that indicates she was crooked and sideways in the pelvis. BUt I expected and would have liked to have tried moe things before surgury. The birth felt very ironic and karmic. This is what happened, I have just had to accept it. i haven't figured out what to do about the doc though. He was way out of line refusing care to me, and then lying later. I made a phine comlaint to the head of OB who I know and work with all the time, but haven't been in the mood to pursue any more.
I just had no idea you were treated like that at your birth. I had ASSumed that everything was done 1st before deciding on a c/s. What an SOB doc. You just never know what you're gonna get when you just walk in, eh? and lying? ugh. I just never can understand how they can be SOOO unprofessional when a mw does something a teeny bit out of the norm and everyone is all over her. lame. he SHOULD have given you the chance to do other things- like you said, pit, epidural, whatever. even if they didn't help, you would have TRIED them. we have not had any transports in the last 3 years where the docs let us try pit- they all rush to c/s.... except for one- and that woman needed a c/s (44 weeks, late decels at 4 cm).
I know you got healing to do mama. you know you've got support here.
9:44 Luka's still up and now he's upset. I like chatting though.
oh yeah, we're up. Doesn't every hospital have to have a review board? Any patient can write a letter of complaint for them, they HAVE to review it. Doesn't mean they have to DO anything about it, but it's something.
Heidi - Perhaps, now that you are physically more recovered, the karmic push is to KEEP you in the profession, which might otherwise lose an excellent midwife, because the mothercare/childcare debate can be so difficult. Just knowing what another mama might live through w/o the help of women like you may be enough to keep you debating and not decide to withdraw from midwifery (even temporarily).
Hugs to you. My 1st birth was so similar. The only thing that kept me away from the knife was my abject fear. My m/w did NOTHING to help once we were in the hospital. that sucked (and suprised us a lot). The resident on duty was such an a$$hole. He STILL makes me boil. Jerry was just petrified something awful was going to happen to me and/or the baby, he was frozen. It was so awful. It sounds like you got blindsided. I wish that hadn't happened, and thinking back on whatever trite and uncalled for comment I may have made way back after Iris was born, I apologise (tho I can't exactly remember...something about how if any of us could deal w/that kind of birth, you could or something like that...). That kind of birth is outside the realm of normal for anyone. I think it's inappropriate to ask ANY mother to give up her right to birth the way she wants to w/out trying all possible routes first (even if it DOES take longer!). Sometimes things do just happen, and we can try to find the best in them, but they're going to suck no matter how we spin them. What you DID get was one very lucky and beautiful baby! Hugs again!
Ok, he's making just the most precious little coos right now... I gotta be there... and it's plugged up this morning again. drag.
Lots of food for thought and I don't have any time to respond
andy I hope you unplugg. I'm the one the gets pluggy alot and I've noticed that when I think its unplugged it will usually go back and forth a couple of times before its really unplugged.
I have a super grumpy baby over here and I realyl ashould be getting ready to leave (about 15 minutaes ago) I keep offering her the boob and she'll nurse for a couple fo seconds latch off and arch her back and scream
this has been going back and for th for about 10minutes now. I gave up and put her down. I tried just hold her and she's writhing around screaming
I don't know whats wrong with her. She's dry, obviuosly does't want to eat, plus she just had a giant feed an hour ago. I just looked at her and I think she's tired, but super pissed at something. Well I've got to run. I will try to post more later
had no idea you had such a rough time with your birth.
I think some docs are just too eager to get birth moving, get a c/s done, it's pretty saddening. My cousin had a c/s because she was told baby was too big
He was 9 lbs 1 oz. She was quite capable of delivering him as her first was 8 lbs so I don't see how that whole 1 pd difference. I know c/s have their purpose but think the rate is way too high. I keeped begging the docs to let me have Megan naturally. They said they would do everything they could to let me. I was so thankful for that and luckily she cooperated too.
gonna have to read article later!
That anchorwoman rocks man :LOL she said the same thing I was thinking when I listened to that. Made my day.
Andy- congrats on the roll!
that sounded so sweet
I know my mom had me 4 weeks late, of course that was back in the days before the inducements became prevalent. Oh ya congrats on senior member!
I was just thinking about the babies that were in the NICU with Megan. Well I can only really go on a few examples really but the moms that gave their babies bm did seem to be "healthier" as in fewer complications due to prematurity. There was one baby born at the same time Megan was at same age and his mom decided on formula. It was astonishing to see the problems he had and all the medications he was on. When we were discharged he was still on at least 10 different kind of meds. There were other babies that were formula feed and seemed like they just had more issues. But I did like the fact that the NICU was very pro bf or just giving bm. Even though I was pumpin I had the lc, nurses, the doc staff, etc... to telling me that bm is best especially for preemies. I remember one mom of twins who was originally going to do formula but changed her mind to pump after being told the benefits and she said she'll most likely continue to pump for awhile.
I don't know why I was thinking all this. Even though I had issues with the staff their at least they were pro bf.
Guess who's 8 mths tomorrow? I think around each month birth date I always seem to reflect on what happened, probably why I was thinking of all this.
Annie - It bugs me too! No mention of pumping or anything like that. It's really frustrating for me because I work in an office that supports the WIC program and supplemental food programs, and one of our major goals is to encourange low income women to bf. Statements like that make it seem impossible for them to work and bf.
Heidi - Our house is reaching that point too. I hate walking on things. Even if there is stuff piled on counters, if the floors are gritty, it makes the house seem so much dirtier. I love your comments/questions about work. There are times that I feel very conflicted about the work - home issue. I rarely feel guilty that I can't stay at home. What gets me is that I feel guilty becaue I in addition to not financially being able to afford it, I really don't want to do it. I love my kids, as we all do, but I would not be a sane mom if I stayed at home.
Andy - Congrats on the unplugging! I haven't ever had that kind of problem, but I imagine that it feels terrible. Sorry about the bread. Cool that Orin just rolled like that. It is such an exciting moment to have that happen.
Karen - Is Luka teething? I tried that chamomillia on both kids over the weekend during a couple of tantrums, and it works great.
Sheri - Sorry about the grumpy kiddo. Will has done that a couple of times and finally figured out it was because of gas.
SPM - Yeah for Megan's 8 month birthday! I can't believe that. It is so cool.
We are doing well here. Will loved the game and the Diamondback did win. I think for fathers day if I can, I am going to get little shirts from the Detroit tigers for the kids. He is a big big Detroit fan. Do any of you live in Michigan? If so, can we talk? Otherwise, i am going to end up ordering the shirts from the team shop and that is totally $$$ there.
I am writing down stuff to talk about later, so I will be back, but Andy - Congrats on senior member!
Karen, if Sears says 3-7% (and I'm guessing it's older info, even though it's on his site), then going with 7% puts about 1:14 kids with issues... SO for there to be 2 kids on here like that would be normal, we're a bit above average with Carmen, Lauren and Ori.
Laura, Megan is beeeeaaautiful!
Hehehe Eamon would make a great queen, IF he'd let you wear his clothes
ROFL Heidi - it was my crack adddiction that made me do it !!!! :LOL
Joyce, yer babes were full term, right? I think as a culture, we've learned that "normal" for twins is 28-36 weeks, when really, they should stay in the whole time!
Hehe Andy, handmedown from my SIL
I'm not too opposed to traditional stuff (Mickey, Pooh, etc) but the spongebob group bugs me. And who wants to wear Barney on their clothes?
Andy, I'm going to find you a cookie recipe that has no wheat. And you can put in your choco chips.
Joyce's Artilce - with the exception of the "no benefits after 4 mos" thing, I can see the author's point. BUT why not rally the feminists to get that national law passed that lets moms pump at work w/o harassment, just like smokers get to smoke! And get WIC to give pumps to mamas, not formula vouchers, and more!
Besides, wasn't the point to show Bab's she was an idiot and should let moms nip? I don't think the nurse-in was trying to force bf as the only choice, but to force society to be tolerant of the bf'ing mamas!
Andy, a doula I know says her homebirth was 5 weeks late, which is amazing to me.
Heidi, perhaps now is the time to reach out to other midwives in your area and coordinate under one business? You can play ringleader and do the "work" ($, hiring, etc) and they can do the majority of deliveries? Perhaps you can extend and coordinate doula services and postpartum care, and more? Like an inclusive birth service, do childbirth class, etc.
Karen, yah, at least the LLL mantra I hear is "when bfing is no longer mutually beneficial" we know babies will benefit for years, but there comes a point when mama isn't getting a benefit, and for most of our culture, that's somewhere between 6 wks - 3 mos. while many of us go on for years... or at least hope to!
Karen, I don' tknow if you intentionally use c-birth over c-section, but to me (just mho) giving it the name "c-birth" makes it more "normal" and accepted... wanna debate the cultural significance of the language used?
Ut oh, I just read all the way to the end of the thread. I'm going to copy and post, and start reading again. You mamas are CHATTY!
I don't know how David can wiggle and eat at the same time, but he is. It's funny to watch, but I can't work like this. I keep trying to readjust him on my lap.
Anyway, they were born 36 weeks and 4 days. "Near term," per the docs. Carmen broke the watr with her toe; both were footling breech. Still feel guilty about it. Feel like maybe I should have taken it easy sooner (worked until the Friday before they were born) and she would have stayed in longer. Crazy. i know.
Annie, the balance thing, I think you have an edge, you started early and your kids are close in age - you'll have time to be cool and interesting when they are more independent (say when Violet is in 5th grade?) and still be young when they are all moving on (sniff sniff)...
Karen, you said But I don't remember him NOT being there . I just remember him being a great dad. which is SO true... it's all about HOW you parent, not the time you are there. My parents BOTH worked 80 hrs/wk when I was 12, and I stayed with grandma, but I didn't lose anything since when they were home they worked hard at working on us as a family.
Heidi, oh mama, wow, what an ass! And you being so logical and going in and having high expectations of care... sadly for you and I both, hindsight is 20/20, I learned a lot from Lauren's birth, yet there is so much that I regret and wish I had done differently. And now I'm
thinking about it all, you, me, and everyone else who had a rough time.
For me, the home/work thing.. well my work was such a nurturing job, that being home is almost the same, with less craziness. My kids were so needy and I gave them so much, it was draining. I loved every day of it, but wow I was really exhausted every night too. After the experience we've had with the reflux, food issues, high needs, screaming, not napping, sucky baby, I know that being home was by far the best thing for Lauren. If she had gone into a care setting she would have ended up CIO because she was just SO needy. It made me insane, and she's my kid! Even my mom was overwhelmed with her for short times, and she was SO needing the breast for comfort when the pain was crazy. The reflux didn't really kick in until about 8 weeks, and I totally would have missed out on the signs and blamed it on a cranky kid in the evenings and my baby would have been miserable for months. Gotta stop now, the
is getting worse!
Gross house, yah I'm with ya. We've been *trying* 10 min. here, 10 there, to get the kitchen done so we can finally get the cabinets in. But that has left the dog hair piling up all over the floors, I haven't washed the bathroom in a while, dh is barely keeping up with the dishes and I with the laundry, etc.
OK I'm finally back to my first post, time to hit refresh and see how many of you woke up this morning and got to talking while I was typing and reading.
Aaah it's just Joyce up this morning.
Joyce, did you have a c? I can't remember, I just remember you posting "I'm 20 lbs lighter" when they were born.
because they were both feet first. The data showed that would just be way too risky of a birth; we could have a tangled mess in there. (Had an awesome OB who let me make decisions after hitting Medline and the medical library. He was prepared to deliver frank breech babes, especially if at least Carmen would turn, but when their feet wouldn't get out of the way, we had to schedule.) The OB gave me a big hug when we scheduled--he knew I wanted to have as natural a birth as possible. At first I was bummed that the babes wouldn't get to pick their own birthday--I felt like it was important that they go through at least some of the labor process--but then they came when we least expected, and surprised us, after all. The doc let me labor as long as I felt was right, and drove in after only getting a couple hours' sleep because he promised us he would be there. I had a doula with me, and she knew all the nurses, and was even with me during the c-section, so the whole atmosphere was really like a big party. The only hard part was the anesthesiologist (though his nurse anesthetist was sooooo great, and a big, buff, guy, exactly the kind of person I needed to lean on when I had that icky spinal!), and, of course, the recovery. Awful, awful, awful. It was hard to nurse, hard to eat, hard to pee, hard to do ANYTHING. We had a really rough start, the babies and I. I can't understand why some women schedule a c because they think it's somehow easier.
Boy, I could talk to you ladies forever. Time to persuade little girl she needs a nap. And work, must work . . .
Thanks for the congrats. It feels like a sparkley morning! Now I get another excuse! Senior moments...Amazing how many ways we can excuse fogetfulness!
Az - Orin has had several 'moments' like that. I chauk it up to teething/growing. The sadness usually passes w/ 1) Chamomilla and 2) sleep induced by bfing. Sometimes it takes a couple of hrs., but when he's awake from that combination, he's usually smilie again. As smilie as he ever is!
Joyce - have we read your birth story? Have you written it, I mean. Somehow I kinda think you have told us bits and pieces, but I don't remember reading 'it'.Have you read some of ours? Some are very moving, some are not easy to read at ALL! They make for an excellent distraction
Lisa - I don't know HOW you live...it's just SO hard already! Too much chaos for me, and I'm over the edge. Honestly, trying to put a house back together during all this would just about apoplex me (I think that's a new way of using that word!).
Yk, my dad worked a lot too - on an easy week 50 -60 hrs, and I just remember waiting for him... I do remember times we had together, like early Sunday mornings he'd take us to sunday school and then to get bagles. Some nice mornings we'd go to the duck pond and feed the bagles (some of them, anyway) to the ducks for a while before going home. And they were special times for all us kids. But I really don't remember having those times as a family much (we all just hated my mom too much). Sad. Actually it's still like that. And my Dad, for all we love him, can be a real a$$ too. He's a bigot, and quite closed minded about some stuff. He totally thought the nurse-in a waste of time and immature. He REALLY feels this way! He's a PhD in psychology and he just totally doesn't get it. Total waste of time trying to 'convince' him, even with evidence, proof, stats, whatever. And he was always like that. Doesn't 'believe' in advocacy or proactivity or trying to change things from the 'norm'. He's kind of a butt kisser that way, but I do love him, and he's not a bad daddy. Just a$$ backwards!
Oh well. I'm going to get some water and see if anyone else has jumped on line. Today, I'm bored! That'll be the kiss of death to his nap, for sure! yikes!
Joyce, yah, (where's the smacks head icon) if I had read all of what you wrote, I would have realized
But for you, you get a c-BIRTH. Best outcome.
I'm on my little c-section huff after I got the new sparkly "pro-woman" health care dvd my hospital put out - it's all a big infomercial to get business, but it's full of little miss got my hair done and I'm wearing my makeup and then she says "I had an ELECTIVE c-section for BOTH of my girls" and the voiceover starts about how the baby will be warm and safe in the isolette, blah blah. ARGH! This is the hospital that did the first water births in the area, has the only independent midwife (other hosps have midwife groups), and some of the best care I've seen on a L&D floor, yet they're making a dvd full of mainstream propaganda when they could REALLY become the premier place in town for natural birth and pro-woman health care. UGH.