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I am pregnant with baby #2. I have a 11 mo old baby boy who is intact. As an RN, I feel there is no valid medical reason to circ., my DH is not circ'd (he was born in another country), and never had any problems or went through any teasing. Plus I have seen botched circs and have seen circs performed on babies as an RN and it's horrible, and I would want anyone to go through that. Well... I have been going to my new due dates forum on another site and the topic of circ came up. There are those who are pro and con, and as expected it has become a debate. I just needed to vent, b/c there are several ladies there who post that they definitely will circ their baby, b/c that is what they did to their last baby boy and they, "didn't flinch at all," or basically, "that's the way my family has always done it" type attitude. I just feel that this type of rationale is absolutely stupid and just plain ignorant!!! When the others try to tell those who want to get their baby circ'd to please educate themselves before making such an important and permanent decision, the ones who want to circ get all pissy and say that the rest of us are being, "self righteous!" Anyway, it just annoys me that most of these women have NOT done any research, yet they feel so confident about their decision to circ. I don't feel that we are trying to shove it down there throat saying, 'no, you cannot do it, you are bad." However, most of the ladies are being civil and saying, "please do your research first" and these idiots just refuse to do any research and are getting pissy at those of us who have. Anyway, I had to vent, b/c I am annoyed by the stupidity of some ppl, and I remember there was a circ folder here at MDC, and figured you would be understanding of why I am so annoyed. I just don't understand why it is just too much trouble to do a little reading about the topic before making a decision.
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I can't understand why people are so afraid of finding out the whole truth.

I try not to tell anyone I think they're insane for their choices, but just encourage them to fully understand their options and reasons those options exist, just to take the time to educate themselves, and it's amazing to me how few will. Between homeschooling, homebirthing, intactness, breastfeeding, babywearing, cloth diapering...
I've experienced so many comments, and when they ask WHY would you/did you/are you doing this or that, I ask them why they're not, and tell them that upon investigation, I found a whole new world of options and possibilities for my family and I, and that, bottom line, I just didn't want to make a decision - like circ'ing - that I couldn't take back, and then regret it later, so I asked why, and then found out.

BUT STILL, they think I'm nuts. What kind of American would dare to buck the status quo?
I thought that's what got most of us or our ancestors here!

Anyway Mags, I've felt your pain! I'm sure some of those ladies are starting to wonder why circ? Hopefully some of them will follow that up with research whether they 'admit it' or not. Thank goodness ladies like you are trying to save some little men from needless mutilation.

lizzie
 

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that get's me that someone would label another mama *self riteous* for not circing. how about protecting our son's from genital mutilation? geesh


btw congrats on your new babe...our children will be almost the same age difference!
 

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It is not just circ'ing that is an edcuation problem in the mainstream. Have you ever tried to educate a woman who does not believe in natural birth about the contents of an epidural and their effects? The BF'ing rate in the US is what it is because people don't want the truth about formula. For many, ignorance is truly bliss.

Congrats on your pregnancy and on making great choices for your children!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mags
"that's the way my family has always done it" type attitude.

I just love it when they use that one. "It's a tradition in my family" justification. Here's my answer to that one:

(A) Circumcision was started in the US as a way to prevent boys from masturbating. Maybe if you could go back and ask Great Grandpa Zeb why he was circumcised, he may tell you that his mother caught him out in the barn masturbating and had him circumcised as punishment. It that a good reason to continue this tradition in your family?

OR

(B) Prior to the early 1970's few parents were asked if they wanted their sons circumcised. If the doctor thought they had the money to pay for it, they were just circumcised and the doctor presented them the bill. Is that a good way to start a tradition in your family? Simply because there was a greedy doctor and the parents had the wherewithall to pay a bill they never agreed to?

That usually gets them and leaves them without an answer. It also tends to be somewhat embarassing and gets them to thinking about it.

Frank
 

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My mom and I got in an argument about it last weekend. She could NOT be reasoned with.
She said she would have had all her boys circed because it "looked better"
Then she made a comment about how she was disgusted everytime she took off my intact bros diaper. :hop:

If I wasn't fluffy, I would have told her I'm disgusted everytime I see her fat rolls and I wish I could starve her for a few weeks so she would 'look better'.
A little bit of pain and your beautiful for life, mom!
 

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i often say that my baby turned out a girl to save herself from circumsicion.
i was uneducated on that, my boyfriend is insanely pro circ.
everyone thought she was a boy, even me. we were all certain.
good thing she came out a girl! lol

i was arguing not circing with my boyfriends mother once and i mentioned something about pain and she said that she was there for justin's circing and that there was no anesthesia and when they made the cut he smiled and laughed(2 days old). now whats up with that. still creeps me out. i bet he was grimacing and crying.
i can still see the scars.
odd that all my previous boyfriends were intact. i never realized until him.
he was quite shocked when i asked him what was 'wrong' with it...

and augh on trying to tell mainstream women anything! christmas eve we drove a family friend to the hospital when her water broke, because the nurse told her so. she wasnt having any contractions and kept talking about how she was glad for epidurals

i asked her casually about some procedure or another and she didnt even know what i was talking about and was sure that her first born wasnt vaccinated at birth because she hadnt told them to
after talking to her for a little i realized that she knew next to nothing about what she was about to do, have done to her/baby. how!? when shes done it before?!
oh and shes declared to me when she found out she was pregnant that she was going to breastfeed this time. i was pleasantly shocked until she said she was going to do it for a 'long time': 3 months

im cursed be having like a million and 1 very mainstream family friends be pregnant all at once.
its driving me insane.
another aspect that tees me off about it all is that i cared so much about birth and everything and i had a horrible time and a surgery, they dont care about anything and they have fast 'easy' vaginal births... augh my hair is going to fall out.

sorry i turned this post into a rant
 

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I've just experienced the same thing on one of my birth boards. Somebody just asked what everyones opinions were and I said I have no religious reason to do it and that my son will remain intact. Well, a few people were offened that I used the word "intact", they said I was being condesending by using that word. Of course I had to respond saying that in fact he will be medically speaking even, intact, which by definition means "whole". And added that the last thing on my mind when finding out we were having a boy, looking at that u/s, was what I wanted cut off.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by darsmama
My mom and I got in an argument about it last weekend. She could NOT be reasoned with.
She said she would have had all her boys circed because it "looked better"
Then she made a comment about how she was disgusted everytime she took off my intact bros diaper. :hop:

If I wasn't fluffy, I would have told her I'm disgusted everytime I see her fat rolls and I wish I could starve her for a few weeks so she would 'look better'.
A little bit of pain and your beautiful for life, mom!
See, that's where I'm not nice. I've said that kind of stuff to my mom before.
I just get too angry with my family to keep it in.
 

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I can't believe someone was offended by your use of the word intact. I always feel like moms who work full time can be condescending about stay at home moms, but if a sahm says something negative about working moms, she gets slammed for it. Same with breastfeeding, vaccinating, and circumcising. Why? Moms who circ often are proud of it, etc.,. but using the word intact is seen as inflammatory. It doesn't make any sense.

I recently weaned myself from my mainstream parenting board. I basically just went there to irritate myself, and get into arguments. Which I didn't consciously realize but that's all that happened when I posted there. If you didn't feel like congratulating every mom on every decision she made, you got flamed. And it was so mainstream. I posted a question about whether people were vaccinating their kids, and they were all shocked at the question. Why wouldn't they? Who ever heard of not vaccinating? Their kids were all fine. What was I talking aboutd? I'm pretty sure no one there had ever heard of, never mind read, Mothering.

I hate to hear about women who decide to circumcise their kids. But all I ask from people I'm close to or talking to, is that they research the issue. If they look at all the info out there, watch a video, and still decide to do it, I feel badly for the baby but at least the mom thought about it. I can't stand the parents who won't look into it at all, and have the dumbest reasons for doing it - so he'll look like dad, it doesn't hurt, it's cleaner, etc.,.

Happy New Year!!
 

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Isn't it funny how people will research buying a new car or computer, but would never think to research something as important as their child's health? Or even research their birth options?
:
Even my husband - who was VERY pro-circ - was "turned" once I showed him all the info and the video. The video really did it - no man wants to see their son's penis bleed. My husband even tried to pull my dad into the debate - but my grandfather wasn't circ'd and my dad said it was never an issue that his penis didn't look like his father's.

And I would just like to smack those who say they do it so "he'll look like dad" - do they have a reason he wouldn't otherwise?

A friend who is intact said he was never teased in school .... and the kid who was checking out his "stuff" would probably be teased more! :LOL
I guess we're all a bunch of hippies for not following the crowd like a bunch of cattle!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zaftigmama
but using the word intact is seen as inflammatory. It doesn't make any sense.

It's inflamatory because they know it's true. Their sons are not whole and intact as they came into this world. By the time they get to the word "intact," they already have an idea of what they have done. They prefer the word "uncircumcised" because it sounds like something that should have been done but was somehow missed or denied your son. Using the word uncircumcised lets them feel that they gave their sons everything they were entitled to instead of making their sons less than they were. There was one woman on another board that was so deep into denial that she insisted that her son "is circumcised and intact." Of course, that is a total contradiction but she refused to hear any of it! She would not face the fact that she had denied her son anything. There was another woman who said that her son's circumcision did not involve any cutting or any pain. She said "they just put a plastic thingy on it and the foreskin fell off a few days later." Even when it was explained to her that there was indeed cutting and pain, she refused to believe it and said we were just trying to use scare tactics.

Denial runs deep in this issue and normal words and truthful information are disturbing and inflames the guilt of those who circumcise. Denial allows them to turn a blind eye to the damage they have perpetrated on their sons.

Frank
 

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I just wanted to add the parts about these mothers saying things like "when they brought him (their son) back into my room he was asleep, in no pain at all" or "just lying there calmly", not realizing that the helpless child is in shock. Too much for its tiny body to handle, makes me want to cry.
 

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My in-laws (outlaws, whatever) came to visit me in the hospital to discuss circumcision, when my son was a day or two old. They were depressed, in shock, outraged, whatever, that I was 'denying my son his religious birthright.' I can honestly understand that, but it wasn't going to make me change my mind. When they saw that I could care less what they thought, they resorted to using every argument they could come up with. I wasn't listening to them because I had heard it all before, I had just had surgery, my son was in the NICU, and they were just droning on and on. But I was watching them, and I could see the wheels turning in their heads, and see them grasping at straws.

One of them told me that at all the circumcisions they had been to (and they have seen many religious circ. rituals, dozens at the least) they had never heard a baby cry for more than a minute, usually the babies slept through it, or were asleep a few minutes afterwards. I told them the babies were in shock, not sleeping peacefully. My FIL freaked out, and this is a man who usually doesn't display emotions. He said I was ridiculous, babies didn't go into shock, he had never seen a baby in shock, how did I know babies went into shock, how could you tell the difference between shock and sleep - on and on and on. The idea of it was so ridiculous, yet repulsive, he literally was having a cow.

A nurse came in to see what the ruckus was all about (there were nurses posted outside the door whenever my IL's came to visit because my MIL had threatened, within earshot of the nurses station, to kidnap and circ. my son) and I asked her if babies ever went into a state of shock after circumcision. She laughed and said, "All the time! And most parents assume the kids are asleep!" And then she snorted derisively. I asked her if a baby could go into shock if he was circumcised at home, not strapped down, on his 8th day of life, and she said, "What else is the baby going to do? His brain isn't equipped to deal with pain like that, even with anasthesia"

My in-laws left in a hurry, and I tried to give the nurse cash for all of the help she had given me. She knew the situation, but she swore she didn't say anything that was untrue in front of them. She was a nurse who refused to participate in circumcisions, and when I told her to put a note on my son's bassinet, she whispered, "Good for you." I got a lot of support from the nursing staff at the hospital I delivered in.

My point - I have one somewhere - is that there are basically three kinds of people I have encountered as an intactivist. People who firmly believe that circumcision should be eradicated. People who don't know, but are able to look at evidence, read articles, watch a video, think about the situation, and make a decision. And those who are so close minded about it, they can't listen to reason, and don't believe anything I have to say. I mean, if you are a logical human being, how is the idea of a baby having his foreskin removed subsequently going into shock surprising or beyond reason? How can you argue that this is realistic? How can you laugh and say it's preposterous?

If my parents or in-laws had said - yes, the baby may go into shock, and that is unfortunate. Or, you're right that the foreskin is a valuable body part, and it is questionable whether you have the right to remove it without his permission, BUT, because of your religion you should consider it, I would have at least believed that they were rational and listening to me, even if they couldn't agree with me. But the fact that their minds are completely closed, and everything I say bounces off of them, makes it both impossible to deal with them, and also makes me lose a lot of respect for them. Do they care? No. But, it's easier have them mad at me when they have shown me how little they care or think.

Happy New Year!!!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zaftigmama
But the fact that their minds are completely closed, and everything I say bounces off of them, makes it both impossible to deal with them, and also makes me lose a lot of respect for them. Do they care? No. But, it's easier have them mad at me when they have shown me how little they care or think.

It is clear that many people don't think of little babies as real people with real inherent and inailenable human rights in place from before birth. They just see them as Beanie Babies that they can do with as they please. Probably in no other instance other than circumcision is this more evident. No one ever question whether that little man may want his foreskin and they take it without a second thought. Even with the advice of the world's medical authorities and with ample evidence from sites on the internet, they blythely pass it off that their son will feel violated and cheated of his birth right. They somehow think they can mind control him to accept that it was the best thing. However, it is obvious by simple observation from just a few weeks old that these little beings have independent minds and come to their own conclusions. What their final feelings are about circumcision will be little influenced by the mental programing their parents try to force on them. Most parents who will try to to do this brain washing will be ill prepared to do it because they had no interest in doing their research before the fact. It is very unlikely they are going to do any research after the fact.

Frank
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by annab
It is not just circ'ing that is an edcuation problem in the mainstream. Have you ever tried to educate a woman who does not believe in natural birth about the contents of an epidural and their effects? The BF'ing rate in the US is what it is because people don't want the truth about formula. For many, ignorance is truly bliss.

True!

There is a bit of an upside, though; I, for example, have learned so much about natural childbirth and genuinely more healthy alternatives to the industrialized medical system from other intactivists, and I honestly don't believe I'm the only one. And now I add some of that information in when I'm trying to educate parents/to-be about routine and ritual male genital mutilation.

I find that a lot of women are really attracted to the idea of treating childbirth as a warm, loving, family celebration instead of a cold, objectifying, industrialized processing. It's just that -- like routine and ritual male genital mutilation -- they've been denied any access to any information about any alternatives.

Follow the money! Always, always, follow the money! More midwives and doulas and homebirths = less money for doctors and hospitals.

Just like more awareness and informedness about routine and ritual male genital mutilation = less money for doctors and hospitals.
 

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I'm going to play devil's advocate here for just a minute. My two boys are intact and we never considered circ for either of them even though DH is circed. However, is this decision worth a marital fight over? I read on another site about a mother who didn't want to circ her sons but her DH was totally in favor of circ'ing their sons. It just wasn't worth risking her marriage over. What should a mother do in this situation?
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbozmommy
I'm going to play devil's advocate here for just a minute. My two boys are intact and we never considered circ for either of them even though DH is circed. However, is this decision worth a marital fight over? I read on another site about a mother who didn't want to circ her sons but her DH was totally in favor of circ'ing their sons. It just wasn't worth risking her marriage over. What should a mother do in this situation?
I see your point, but I would say 'yes' - it is worth discussing intensely, researching extensively and standing your ground over.

Your question is phrased as if the default is the husband's position - to cut a healthy part of someone else's body off. Why is that the default?

Shouldn't we be asking of the husband - is cosmetic surgery on your newborn son's genitals worth risking your marriage over? I disagree strongly with your implied premise that it is the mom who wants to protect her son from unnecessary surgery who is 'risking her marriage' over this decision.

If the disagreement really is that severe, BOTH sides are risking their marriage over the issue - not just the mother, ykwim?

And I'm not sure I would want to be with a man who would throw away a marriage because I was refusing to consent to unnecessary, sexually damaging, very painful surgery on my unconsenting newborn. Just to make himself feel better about what was done to him as a newborn.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbozmommy
I'm going to play devil's advocate here for just a minute. My two boys are intact and we never considered circ for either of them even though DH is circed. However, is this decision worth a marital fight over? I read on another site about a mother who didn't want to circ her sons but her DH was totally in favor of circ'ing their sons. It just wasn't worth risking her marriage over. What should a mother do in this situation?

Oh, that's easy. Just apply Ack's Simple Circ Parametric -- in this case, specifically: Well, what is a daughter's genital integrity worth? What should a mother do in that situation?

(The general case being: And that reason would justify the permanent amputation of exactly how much of what genital tissue from a little girl? Then modify to suit the particulars, as above.)

So -- as a Devil's Adovcate, how far do you think parents should go to protect their daughters from routine and ritual genital amputation?

Do you think they should go any less distance to protect their sons?

If so -- why?
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbozmommy
However, is this decision worth a marital fight over? I read on another site about a mother who didn't want to circ her sons but her DH was totally in favor of circ'ing their sons. It just wasn't worth risking her marriage over. What should a mother do in this situation?
I have to wonder what else such a woman would let her husband do to her children to keep the marriage together. Spankings? Beatings? Emotional abuse? Molestation? Where do you draw the line? I imagine it really sucks when it comes down to one parent having to protect their child against the other, but you do what you have to do.
 
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