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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,<br><br>
My dd, 3.5, has gotten into the habit of refusing to do certain things , even going so far as to scream at us, hold her hand out to us in a "stop" motion and say, "Don't say that to me!" and even hit and kick at us! Like when:<br><br>
Trying to get her to pick up some toys as we are cleaning the house and she continues to drag more toys out of the play room and into the living room.<br><br>
Trying to get her to get dressed/get shoes on/get coat on when we need to go somewhere.<br><br>
I think I am doing *OK* in a lot of areas of parenting. I am not into punishing. When a behaviour happened that is over, like when she colored on the walls with a marker, I don't get upset or try to punish. I told her in a firm voice we don't write on walls and told her I will get paper or color books out when she wants to color on something.<br><br>
But it is when the behavior is going on RIGHT NOW that I don't know what to do. When humor fails, and it is too late for a, "you need to get dressed in ten minutes...nine minutes..." or I did that and at the end still no cooperation and we NEED to go, what then?<br><br>
A few times, I have asked her to pick up a specific toy and put it away. I don't ask her to pick up her whole toy room or anything like that. When she has said "No", I have told her if it isn't put away in 5 minutes, I would put it away and then I would put it up so that she could'nt play with it next time because she can't play with it is she isn't willing to put it away. She usually still ends up refusing, and I have put the toy up. Is this a "natural consequence" by any stretch of the imagination?<br><br>
We were trying to get out the door to go to church on Sunday morning. She wanted to go, too, and was all dressed. It was time to actually head out the door, and I asked her several times to get her shoes on. I even tried to keep it simple, with a, "Allison, shoes!". She continued to race a truck back and forth from the living room to the kitchen. I got in front of her, blocking her way, and tried for a playful, "The truck can't pass if you don't have your shoes on". It didn't work. I picked her up and sat her on the kitchen counter and tried to put her shoes on. She screamed, hit and kicked at me, and grabbed a shoe and threw it across the room! My husband ended up holder her arms down at her side while I put her shoes on. Then of course she is crying by the time we get in the car. I didn't even want to go to church anymore. Is it wrong to "man-handle" my child?<br><br>
In the car she actually perked up pretty quickly, I was surprised. So I took the opportunity to point out how we were all three unhappy when that happened. She said there were two people mad and one little person sad. I asked her what she thought we could do the next time we needed her to get her shoes on and she didn't want to. She said maybe I could use my good manners and Daddy could use his good manners when we asked her and she could get her shoes on. (I am reading that book, "How to talk so your kids will listen...", on page 158...). I tried that later in the day for something that wasn't a big deal, but made sure to point out to her that I used my good manners in asking her, and that she did what I asked her to do.<br><br>
Any suggestions?<br><br>
Thanks,<br>
Tracy
 

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Well first of all, I would think that removing a toy that wasnt put a way a "logical" consequence for leaving it out, but not a "natural" one. KWIM. I do use logical consequences.<br><br>
Now I have a 3 1/2 year old too. And I dont knwo if it is easier or not because he still hasnt mastered dressing himself. SO I have a slightly different perspective. When I want my child to do something I ask, then I wait then if he doesnt do it, I dont ask again or nag or threaten or give a time limit. I just go to the child and do it.<br>
Time to get your shoes? If he doesnt get them and bring them to me to put on. I get them and bring them to him to put on.<br>
He has a choice to do it himself or not. BUt he doesnt have a choice not to wear them. It isnt a battle because I do not have the expectation that he must do it all by himself. I want to try to help him learn this, but if he doesnt do it, he isnt ready for that responsibility.<br>
I think that repeating ourselves sometimes leads the behavior to worsen because the initial idea not to comply becomes really ingrained as their resistance meets our insistance.<br>
So for example with the shoe incident. I would have suggested "It is time to put on your shoes" (several minutes before it is time to leave) but only once. Then if I wait a minute or two and she has made no effort to stop what she is doing I would bring the shoes to her to put them on. (every time you remind her her mind goes from a little meek "not right now" to "no" to "NO!!!" and so on. If you intervene right after the "not right now" phase she is less likely to be so attached to the idea of resisting you than if you have reminded her four times first.) If she resists putting them on at all (as opposed to just stopping what she is doing and doign it herself) I would grab the shoes and let her walk to the car barefoot.<br><br>
I would definitely check out Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting" he is GD and is non punishent (but he does do some logical consequences which some woudl consider to be punishment but you've got to read him to really get what this means) but he thinks parents do have the right to expect certain behavior and to teach their children good behaviors.<br><br>
But even before you read him, stop the broken record thing. It really increases YOUR anger as well as your child's will to refuse to obey. (are you angry after the first time you ask? Or after the fifth time you ask? Intervene before you get angry and you save everybody the negative energy)<br><br>
good luck<br>
Joline
 

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Do you want her to obey or do you want to know why she doesn't want to do what you ask?<br><br>
If my husband told me "put your shoes on we are going to church" once and then proceeded to come put shoes on my feet against my will, while I was occupied with some other activity that I deemed important, I would surmise that he expected me to obey him. I would not have experienced anything to have me believe that he was interested in why I didn't want to do what was asked. Nor would I believe that he had much regard for what was important to me. I would assume that is the 'standard operating procedure' and start *telling* him "Stop" and "Don't say that to me" too because his opinion (and orders) became no more important to me than he regarded my opinons as important. I would naturally learn disregard for others because disregard for me and enforced obedience were effectively modelled.<br><br>
In regards to other's body space integrity, I am very passionate that our son have total autonomy over his body to the extent that it does not directly harm any other being. Otherwise, I will intervene by physically obstructing his actions, but not impose my will on him to obey. I choose not to model imposing my will on others because I don't want him to learn or believe that this is acceptable to do to others, not even to children. If I model imposing my will on him, why would he think he wasn't justified to do the same when he wanted others to obey him? He doesn't consider himself or his opinion as any less important than any other person.<br><br>
So, relative to the shoes, I would say something along the lines of 'You are having fun with the truck aren't you? Do you want to bring the truck with us in the car or leave it here? We need to put your shoes on before we go into church. Do you want to put them on now or in the car when we get there?' This is assuming that she actually is agreeable to going. If she doesn't want to go to church, that is a whole 'nuther issue to investigate and to seek mutually agreeable solutions. I would not dictate compliance at participation.<br><br>
As far as putting the toy up, it sounds like the intention was obedience. So the removal of the toy was a consequence of disobeying. Punishment. Instead, I would state my needs and own responsibility for meeting my needs. Not expect others to be responsible for meeting my needs for me. I am the adult. She the child. If *I* have a need for the house to meet my standard of orderliness, I would own that and ask for help. But asking for help is very different than demanding help, with an "or else" (imposed) consequence.<br><br>
I ask our son for help cleaning and it is his choice. Often he willing shares the work of making order out of chaos. He doesn't have a need for this. I do. He does have a desire to help me; I believe because I have modelled a willingness to help him do things that are important to him. However, I assume the responsibility for meeting <i>my need</i>. I believe that by displaying responsibility for meeting my own needs, my son is learning to do so also. As his need for orderliness develops, I am fully confident that he will be able to meet his own needs for orderliness or ask for help. I don't expect him to meet my need for orderliness any more than I would expect my husband to organize his space to suit me. Common living areas are a challenge because I desire to have a higher sense of order than our son has a need for. I keep them orderly to the level of my need. In his room, I choose to help him keep his room orderly to the level of his need. And he helps with both. Ultimately, I am certain, he will not want me organizing his room and I will stop.<br><br>
HTH, Pat
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I really can't "get" either of these two responses. And I really want to be open to input - after all, I AM asking for input, and I do appreciate getting responses.<br><br>
Joline, I do get the respond before you get angry part - good plan. In the shoe example I wasn't angry until she started hitting and kicking me. BTW, she is totally able to put her shoes on, and usually won't even let me help her. She will be 4 in January, and declines help on a lot of things. She even goes into a stall at a public restroom by herself, will even unbuckle her overalls, use the potty, wipe, redress and come out, with me standing outside the door in case she wants/needs help. This isn't a case of me asking her to do something she isn't capable of - I actually didn't care if she or I put the shoes on, just that they get on. Also, there really wasn't an option to go to the car barefoot in this case - she was wearing tights and the garage if filthy and she really would'nt have wanted to walk out there in her tights anyways. But are you saying that in general if your 3.5 year old declines to do what you ask of him they you just let him not do that? Surely there are times when you really need that request to get done?<br><br>
Pat, I have heard that question on this forum before - "do you want your child to obey you?" I just want to get the heck out the frickin' door! Are you suggesting to always allow my child to do whatever she wants and not insist that she does what I want her to do? What about bedtime? What about XYZ - the list could go on and on. I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with insisting on some co-operation on her part with keeping the livingroom area clean. She has her own room (I share a room with dh). She has our whole formal dining room area dedicated to just her stuff - and it is right around the corner from the living room. I don't have a whole room dedicated for me or my stuff. If I want to do scrapbooking I have to pull out a few things and sit at the kitchen table. I can't for the life of me understand why it would be bad for us to insist, while we are working our buts off to clean the house - and we ALL like it when it is clean - that she put away (meaning put back in either you room which you have all to yourself or your play room which you keep the way you like it) ONE of the 12 toys covering the livingroom floor for the love of pete before dragging out the 13th one. She is part of a family, and that is the family room, not one of the two rooms in the house dedicated just for HER and HER STUFF (she is the only one in the family who has any dedicated space - all other space is SHARED). It seems to me that she needs to learn how to live within a family unit - not do whatever she wants whenever she wants. I really can't grasp your comments. I'm not even going to discuss forced participation in church - she was the one who wanted to go to church!!!!<br><br><br>
I am just beyond frustrated. Again, I don't know what to do. I guess I should sit back on the couch, let my house go to hell even more than it has, and let me 3.5 year old run my life even more than she does now. Due in Jan, really wondering why I am having another one.<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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Ok, I am thinking over a response because this is an area where I struggle with my lovely dd! I totally get your frustration. I am not sure I have a lot of insight but I could comiserate.<br><br>
I must go start the bedtime routine but I didn't want to read and not at least, <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"><br><br>
best, lula
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Wugmama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I really can't "get" either of these two responses. And I really want to be open to input - after all, I AM asking for input, and I do appreciate getting responses.<br><br>
Joline, I do get the respond before you get angry part - good plan. In the shoe example I wasn't angry until she started hitting and kicking me. BTW, she is totally able to put her shoes on, and usually won't even let me help her. She will be 4 in January, and declines help on a lot of things. She even goes into a stall at a public restroom by herself, will even unbuckle her overalls, use the potty, wipe, redress and come out, with me standing outside the door in case she wants/needs help. This isn't a case of me asking her to do something she isn't capable of - I actually didn't care if she or I put the shoes on, just that they get on. Also, there really wasn't an option to go to the car barefoot in this case - she was wearing tights and the garage if filthy and she really would'nt have wanted to walk out there in her tights anyways. But are you saying that in general if your 3.5 year old declines to do what you ask of him they you just let him not do that? Surely there are times when you really need that request to get done?<br><br>
Pat, I have heard that question on this forum before - "do you want your child to obey you?" I just want to get the heck out the frickin' door! Are you suggesting to always allow my child to do whatever she wants and not insist that she does what I want her to do? What about bedtime? What about XYZ - the list could go on and on. I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with insisting on some co-operation on her part with keeping the livingroom area clean. She has her own room (I share a room with dh). She has our whole formal dining room area dedicated to just her stuff - and it is right around the corner from the living room. I don't have a whole room dedicated for me or my stuff. If I want to do scrapbooking I have to pull out a few things and sit at the kitchen table. I can't for the life of me understand why it would be bad for us to insist, while we are working our buts off to clean the house - and we ALL like it when it is clean - that she put away (meaning put back in either you room which you have all to yourself or your play room which you keep the way you like it) ONE of the 12 toys covering the livingroom floor for the love of pete before dragging out the 13th one. She is part of a family, and that is the family room, not one of the two rooms in the house dedicated just for HER and HER STUFF (she is the only one in the family who has any dedicated space - all other space is SHARED). It seems to me that she needs to learn how to live within a family unit - not do whatever she wants whenever she wants. I really can't grasp your comments. I'm not even going to discuss forced participation in church - she was the one who wanted to go to church!!!!<br><br><br>
I am just beyond frustrated. Again, I don't know what to do. I guess I should sit back on the couch, let my house go to hell even more than it has, and let me 3.5 year old run my life even more than she does now. Due in Jan, really wondering why I am having another one.<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"></div>
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Wugmama,<br><br>
Living with other people can be done in many ways. One tried and true way is for there to be top-down decision making. Another way is for everyone's input to be considered and some people/person in authority makes the final decision. Both of these require enforced "cooperation". I would argue that nonvolitional "cooperation" is really enforced compliance with a pretty spin on it. That is a perfectly common and perfectly acceptable manner in which to relate to children in our culture. One hundred years ago, it was a perfectly common and perfectly acceptable manner in which to relate to women and wives in our culture. And fifty years ago, it was a perfectly common and perfectly acceptable manner in which to relate to African Americans in our culture. In my opinion, the learned relational tools are the use of demands, refusal, ignoring orders, hidden non-compliance, disobedience, rebellion and forced compliance and punishments or the use of threats, bribes or intimidation.<br><br>
An alternative method of relating to others is through their consent. True cooperation, imo, requires voluntary agreement. This is a paradigm shift for people to relate to children this way. The perfectly common and perfectly acceptable reason this is not possible with children in our culture is that children are less intelligent, less experienced, less rational about what is best for them. This is the same perfectly common and perfectly acceptable reason that was given for controling women, wives and African Americans in our culture without their consent.<br><br>
In our family, we don't expect anyone to do anything *against their will*. This is <b>not the same</b> as being able to do whatever someone wants regardless of how it affects other people! The autonomy of choice for women and wives and African Americans has developed as culturally acceptable. Someday, I believe that the autonomy of choice for children will develop as culturally acceptable.<br><br>
Based upon the premise that despite our son being less experienced, he is the authority for his own body and has the autonomy of choice to the extent that it doesn't affect other people against their will. At first this might seem to be dangerous or time consuming or frustrating but that hasn't been our experience. Our son expects to have choice, just as I or dh expect to have choice. And we negotiate to mutually agreeable solutions when a conflict arises or when one's choice of actions impacts another. Not unlike if my husband wanted to quit his job, we would discuss how that impacts each of us. Not unlike if I decided to take a job, we would discuss how that impacts each of us. No one dictates for another.<br><br>
Does this help?<br><br>
Part of this type of relationship is recognizing the develpmental abilities and priorities of each of us is different than our own. So, picking up toys just isn't important to ds;, but it is easy enough and important enough to me to just do it. And I model and I ask for help without expectation of "cooperation". What I have observed and welcomed and appreciated is voluntary cooperation from ds or dh. And I haven't chosen to create angst about all the times either said 'no' or didn't help. But, because I valued whatever they were doing when I asked for help and they didn't help, I believe they are more inclined to value whatever I am doing when I do ask for help. There is no consequence or experience of having something important to either negated. There is no compulsion of bribe or incentive to act. They *choose* to regard what I need as important. Just as I *choose* to regard what they are doing (their need) as important. It is a whole different dynamic of valuing other individual's own priorities, not just <span style="text-decoration:underline;">my determination</span> of what is the priority for me and thus for them.<br><br>
Do you see the dynamic is one of choice?<br><br>
Pat
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You know Pat, I think I DO get what you are saying now - it does make sense. Thank you for taking the time to come back and re-post. Before coming back just now and seeing it, I did remember something Dr. Sears said about not getting upset about the messes kids make. I was wondering if what you meant was if it is so important for me to have the toy(s) picked up, I need to just do it myself at this point. Now I see that is what you meant, and I understand your reasoning.<br><br>
I can respect your total respect for your son's physical being. It felt "wrong" to me to have us be forcing her shoes on her. That is why I was putting it out on the board - for feedback and suggestions about what to do instead. You are right.<br><br>
I wish I didn't get defensive so easily. It is such a touchy, emotional subject, because it matters so very much.<br><br><br>
~Tracy
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Wugmama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I really can't "get" either of these two responses. And I really want to be open to input - after all, I AM asking for input, and I do appreciate getting responses.<br><br>
Joline, I do get the respond before you get angry part - good plan. In the shoe example I wasn't angry until she started hitting and kicking me. BTW, she is totally able to put her shoes on, and usually won't even let me help her. She will be 4 in January, and declines help on a lot of things. She even goes into a stall at a public restroom by herself, will even unbuckle her overalls, use the potty, wipe, redress and come out, with me standing outside the door in case she wants/needs help. This isn't a case of me asking her to do something she isn't capable of - I actually didn't care if she or I put the shoes on, just that they get on. Also, there really wasn't an option to go to the car barefoot in this case - she was wearing tights and the garage if filthy and she really would'nt have wanted to walk out there in her tights anyways. But are you saying that in general if your 3.5 year old declines to do what you ask of him they you just let him not do that? Surely there are times when you really need that request to get done?<br><br>
I am just beyond frustrated. Again, I don't know what to do. I guess I should sit back on the couch, let my house go to hell even more than it has, and let me 3.5 year old run my life even more than she does now. Due in Jan, really wondering why I am having another one.<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"></div>
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Oh no I dont mean that at ALL. What I mean is that instead of repeating myself I get up and actually make him do it. I dont nag him. I walk him through it. THen he learns that deciding not to do it doesnt really have the effect of not doing it. If I say "pick up the crayons you threw" and he does not. I go right over there to him and bring him to teh crayons and say . "Please put the blue crayon in the box. Please put the green crayon in the box. " While I also pick up a few and model the behavior.<br>
I just think talking and nagging and reminding are not productive.<br><br>
And while your dd might be fully capable of putting her shoes on and doing things for herself. She might have a hundred different reasons why she doesnt want to at that point in time. And some 3 year olds waver from acting completely independant to wanting to be "babied". I just dont think it is worth being frustrated over. If you grab the shoes and walk to the car (try this a couple minutes early so you arent late) and she doesnst wantt o get her pretty tights ruined on the garage floor. She might decide right then and there to promptly put her shoes on herself.<br>
As for the hitting and kicking. I also think that could have been avoided<br>
if you had acted sooner rather than just repeating your instructions.<br><br>
My friends and I call it "get off your butt" discipline and use those terms a lot with each other. It is really hard when you are pregnant and tired. But I think it is an effective teaching tool.
 

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Here are some practical ideas that have worked for us (but nothing "works" all the time with a 3.5 year old child):<br><br>
"Let's put on our shoes together." (Let's is such a nice, cooperative word, that it tends not to elicit power struggles. Then you sit down and put on your shoes while DD puts on her shoes).<br><br>
Silliness: Put DD's shoe on your hand like a hand puppet and say in a high, squeaky voice: "I'm looking for a foot. Does anyone have a foot for me? Where could my foot have gone? I can't find it anywhere"<br><br>
Singing a song: "I've been putting on my shoes" to the tune of "I've been working on the railroad."<br><br>
A picture chart (for things that happen consistently, like morning or nighttime routines): We created the chart together using pictures from magazines/newspaper, then I had it laminated so DD could check things off with a wipe-off marker. She loved this for bedtime and mornings at 3.5. (Note-- this is NOT a reward chart; it is more like a pictorial "to-do" list). Then the chart is guiding the child instead of you. (you say: "What does the chart say to do next?")<br><br>
All of these suggestions assume that your child DOES want to put on her shoes and go to Church, but needs help and motivation to close-out her current activity (playing with truck) and find something fun about shoe time.<br><br>
At the age of 3.5, I strongly limit the number of "demands" that I make on my child that have the potential to elicit a power struggle. So "let's put on our shoes together" is a suggestion while "You need to put on your shoes" is a demand. Once I make a demand, I find it important in my parenting philosophy to follow through on that. So the conversation in our house might go something like this:<br><br>
(Getting down on child's level): "You need to put on your shoes so we can get to church on time and sing our favorite song." (child keeps playing)<br>
"Do you want to put on your shoes or should I do it? (child ignores me, keeps playing). "Okay. I'll need to do it then." And then I would put on child's shoes for her, staying calm, while she screams and yells "me do it, me do it.". I would empathize with her yelling. I would say "You're sad that Mama's putting on your shoes", but at that point, I would not let her put on her own shoes, because in my opinion, she had made her choice not to do it.<br><br>
I am willing to go through that scene because while I respect Scubamama's philosophy, I don't share it. I think that my children are actually happier when they know that there are some non-negotiable limits in their lives (My Mom won't let me keep the whole family from going to church). BUT, I avoid the scene I described above like the plague. I find that with proactive approaches -- leaving plenty of time, not feeling rushed, being silly, singing songs, etc., life generally (but not always) proceeds smoothly.<br><br>
WRT the toys in the living room, personally, if your daughter has a playroom nextdoor, I would not let her have any toys in the living room at this stage in her life. The living room can be grown-up space, and she could read books in there with you, but she doesn't need to be allowed to play there, if she can't put her toys away and it aggravates you. Remove the source of conflict and it's an easy rule to remember: "Toys in Toy Room"<br><br>
Davidah
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I really appreciate all of your inputs. Some great ideas Davidah! I believe I can learn from each of your posts, even though it sounds like you all have a slightly different philosophy, but all great moms. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><br><br>
Thank you!<br>
Tracy
 

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In our family it is non-negotiable to invade or violate another's body space integrity against their will. This is non-negotiable for children and adults or others. I agree, we are <b>*all*</b> happier with this being a non-negotiable limit.<br><br>
Pat
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Wugmama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">It was time to actually head out the door, and I asked her several times to get her shoes on.</div>
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Hi Tracy,<br>
my advice is to pick your battles carefully.<br>
For the shoes, in my book it is not worth the confrontation. Pick child up, pick shoes up, get in the car. Shoes later, when arrived at destination.<br>
Same for the toys. She will not learn the importance of helping out if you "force" her to put away a single toy through logical consequences, that may look punitive from her view point. Let her help you with housework, with cleaning, whatever. Then you can say, thanks for helping <i>me</i>, now let me help <i>you</i> put away your toys. I would not expect she helps every time, but then, she will get the idea that you are a family and you work together. IMO that is what really counts.<br><br>
P.S. WOW! I was impressed by what she said in the car! It sounds like you are doing great with her, because she understands her emotions and can very well verbalize them.
 

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I think 3 year olds are hard to live with!!<br><br>
I agree with choosing battles.<br><br>
I would stop "asking her" to do things. Instead, I would announce what needs to happen and then start doing it. <i>"I need a cleaner livingroom. Its clean-up time. You can help if you want."</i> Hum or sing while you put toys away. Same with getting dressed. <i>"Time to get dressed!"</i> Then I start dressing him/her while singing or talking to them about other things. I don't even ask a 3 yo. to dress himself unless he demands it. And if they fight me, then I say, <i>"Are you wearing jammies to church today?"</i><br><br>
A line that I *often* use is, <i>"I'm available to help you with this now. I might not be available when you feel ready. Do you choose mommy's help right now, or by yourself later?"</i><br><br>
When its time to transition, I ask if they are still willing. <i>"Did you still want to go to church? Because now is the time! Is the truck coming with us?"</i> Shoes have never been a big point for argument around here, but I do see how they could easily have been. <i>"Do you want to walk with your shoes on, or should Daddy carry you while I carry your shoes?"</i> There was a whole period time that I just kept the shoes in the car. Same with coats. Just not worth arguing.
 

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I can only offer what "works" for me in the context of the type of home and interaction I believe in. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"> I'm comfortable with an authoritative/authoritarian role in my home. I don't impose unrelated punishment, but I do imposed logical consequences if they fit certain criteria. I'm not trying to "sell" my approach to you, just giving some information on the paradigm.<br><br>
For me, I expect my kids to learn to obey when I have a command. (I try to be precise with terms. I think most people would say "I want my kids to listen when I ask them to do something".) While I do expect them to comply, I also expect that I will offer assistance according to age appropriate expectations.<br><br>
Sure, I will include playfulness, be flexible and consider requests for doing things in a different way. But not to the degree where it creates a home in which I feel I am begging instead of fostering a tone. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
All that said, I practice Get Off Your Butt Parenting. That has worked for my 3 children and in the 2 daycare homes I have owned.<br><br><a href="http:/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id21.html" target="_blank">http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positiv...nter/id21.html</a>
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Again, thanks for all the posts, they are ALL appreciated.<br><br>
I had a couple of good interactions yesterday and this morning.<br><br>
Yesterday when I was picking up my dd from my parent's house I said to my mom in front of my dd, "Grandma, it is important to me that you don't have to pickup dd's toys. I'm going to put them away before we go.". Then to dd, "I don't want grandma to have to pick up all of your toys, so I'm going to pick them up. If you help me, that would be great. I at least need you to tell me where some of them go". I proceeded to pick up toys/books/art supplies and sometimes ask her where they go, and she would tell me. But immediately, she started running around picking up stuff - she picked up more than me even. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/jaw.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="dropjaw"> I had decided I wasn't going to get upset if she didn't help, but was very pleased that she did, and I told her so.<br><br>
This morning while we were getting ready for me to bring her to my parent's house, I brought her clothes to her and asked her if she wanted to put them on or wanted me to help her. She said she wanted to finish her smoothie first. A bit later I asked her again, she said she wasn't done with it. I sat on the couch next to her and asked for a hug and she climbed on my lap. I told her I loved her so much I was going to help her get dressed so she would be nice and warm when we left the house, and I got her dressed with her helping with the buttons. This is usually a stressful thing in the morning lately but it went great today!<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><br><br>
Tracy
 

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Congratulations. But don't hold your breath. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> My goal is connection not compliance. It sounds like you did that. Congratulations.<br><br>
Pat
 

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With my neices and nephew, I always give them a choice so they can feel more empowered. I would get on their level, perhaps hold their hand (depends on their mood), and say, "Titi is going to go to Church. In order for us all to go, you have to put your shoes on. If you want to play with your truck, we can bring that along. Do want to bring the truck?" Child says yes and then I'd say, "Okay, then, let's put on your shoes real quick so we can continue to play." This probably how I would have handled the situation...I just seem to like to give the kids a choice. It is not based on any reading, but what I found best to work with my neices and nephew.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I practice Get Off Your Butt Parenting</td>
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This was recently brought to my attention by my dp. And I just want to say, it has made life more pleasent for both dd and I since I started doing it. 3 yr olds get distracted so easily, I now see how pointless it was to ask/demand/beg 10 plus times.
 

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I need a clean house and I need not to be cleaning up everyone else's mess all the time. If my Dd makes a mess and forces me to either live in it or pick it up for her, I'm going to be miserable. So, when she doesn't want to clean up, I try to use humor to get her involved. I try to make it a game. I get her to do part of it while I help with most of it. Most of the time this works. If she absolutely refuses to help at all, I put it away until I feel like I'm up for cleaning it up again the next time she gets it all out.<br><br>
The other day she wanted me to pick up my sewing from the table so she could have the table for her own project. I did it. I want her to know that it works both ways. But, I'm not living in a messy house and I'm not going to be the one cleaning up all the mess.
 

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Wugmama, I'm glad you posted this, because this is something we have a hard time with, too. Similar issues, but a younger kid. Sometimes all these ideas work, sometimes not. And a lot of times when I get up to go get her and do "get off your butt" parenting, she runs away and tries to hide. So then I try to wait it out, a la Anthony Wolf, and she doesn't budge, or ignores me. So then I'll try putting the shoes on the dog, or my ears, and she laughs, but doesn't come out. And I'm not at all concerned with obedience, I, too, just want to get out the frickin' door. It is frustrating, and I have no advice.<br><br>
Except for the problem of "stuff". We had that problem, too. Everyone is always giving her toys, her older cousins hand theirs down, and our 900 square foot house was filled with her junk. So I donated about 20%, boxed up about 60% and distributed the other between her room and our living room. Now I rotate the toys and it's like they're brand new and I've been slowly siphoning off the stuff she's not interested in when it comes out again. That might help you feel less resentful/cluttered.
 
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