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I have two children, a second grader a kindergardener. When my kids were preschool ages I had many friends whose kids were around the same ages and I am not exaggerating, almost every single one of these kids was so advanced compared to my children! My friends had their kids in montessori preschools and most of them told me that their child was in the gifted range. Now as you can imagine I felt concern for my young preschool aged kids because they seemed so late with everything, from potty training to socialization to even talking and then once they talked it seemed like it took a while to talk well with decent grammar. When my eight year old started kindergarten he couldn't even hold a pencil and the teacher couldn't tell if he was right or left handed (turns out he's a lefty)! Anyway, I accepted the fact that my kids were dull to average in intelligence and that everyone else had these gifted kids.<br><br>
Well fast forward just two years from there and my son is in second grade in a good public school. Somehow and I don't know how, he is testing at a fifth grade reading level and an eighth grade math level. He has been struggling with kids wanting to copy off of his paper and then later they bully him and call him 'nerd' and 'weird'. He tells me all he wants in life is to be average. All the gifted kids we knew now seem so much less advanced. My son was even told to tutor one of the gifted kids. Ironically, one of those gifted kids now bullies my son and calls him 'nerd'. My friends still think they have the gifted kids and still think my children are dull, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I don't like their assumptions of superiority especially when I don't consider them to be very intellectual.<br><br>
So what I don't understand is why there is so much emphasis on kids doing things early.. From my experience kids who are early to develop end up being average in intelligence later on. As an analogy, even animals seem to mature very early compared to humans as if humans need a slower, but longer maturation to increase intelligence or develop optimal cortical formation. Preschools promote early learning, give false hope to parents that their children are gifted and then make a good profit. The teacher recommended him for the gifted program, but all the slots were filled up, presumably by the kids who were labelled gifted before kindergarten.
 

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I don't know - I do know that many schools delay gifted programs until third grade because there's some sort of received wisdom that things level out by then. I don't know if that's an old teacher's tale or whether there's some measure of truth to it.<br><br>
There's also a difference between achievement and giftedness. Yes, gifted kids are capable of higher achievements at younger ages. But you can also put kids in an environment where they will be learning things 'early' without being gifted necessarily. And you can have the opposite: Gifted kids who are very bright but don't achieve. That's why basing enrollment in programs on achievement is so problematic.<br><br>
Our ds is a 'late blooming' gifted kid too - he didn't enter K reading, and he was at grade level in 1st grade. His fine motor skills have always been weak, and he's very, very quiet in class. But once he learns a concept, he takes off. So his reading went from 1st grade to about 4th grade level in one year (1st grade). This year his writing has taken off dramatically too. (Math not so much, but it's because the math program at school is terrible.)<br><br>
For him, it's not so much about the earliness of learning as it is about speed of mastery. He's quick with a good mind for patterns and for thinking in interesting ways. Interestingly, he's terrible with visual-spatial stuff, and is definitely not gifted there. His strengths are verbal, but few people recognize that because he's a quiet introvert. It's going to be a rare teacher who recognizes ds' talents. Thankfully, he's got one this year. I love his 3rd grade teacher.<br><br>
On a side note: I'd definitely be in contact with your son's teacher about the bullying that he's getting from the other kids. That's not OK, and isn't good for anyone. And no way should they be asking him to tutor kids who are mean to him. That's a terrible social dynamic.<br><br>
And push the school as to what they're doing to meet his intellectual needs. Just because there's no room in the gifted program doesn't mean he doesn't also need it!
 

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Of course gifted does not always mean early, and of course teaching can muddy the waters when it comes to early development of preschool skills. In fact, there is evidence that gifted kids are slower to develop in some areas (notably the <a href="http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/cognition-without-control-adhd-gifted.html" target="_blank">prefrontal cortex</a>). But I do think that most gifted kids show at least some signs of giftedness in their early years, whether it is recognized or not (and whether it comes in the form of early preschool skills or not).<br><br>
What bothers me about your post is that you and your son <i>both</i> appear to be victims of bullying. Why would you be friends with people who treat you as if you are inferior? The relative intelligence of your children is simply irrelevant here--if they think they are superior, you need to find new friends. And your son absolutely should not have to put up with bullying. Please speak to the teacher and come up with a plan so that he can have an appropriate, safe education.
 

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I both agree and disagree with you. My children are later bloomers so I do understand your perspective. My kids had little interest in letters and numbers in their toddler and preschool years. They instead had fantastic imaginations, large and unique knowledge bases, quick wits and an interest in things their peers were not. When they DID decide to take-up traditional academics, they surpassed those that seemed so advanced in days. However, I think it's a mistake to say that early achievers generally end up average. Much depends on what levels you are talking. A kid who starts spontaniously reading fluently at 3 isn't likely to turn out average. A child who is carefully taught to read for years and can manage a simple Dr. Suess when they enter kindergarten may very well end up average. A kid who can count to 100 in kindie is advanced and may end up average. A kidie who figured out how to add and subtract fractions from cooking a few times with mom isn't likely to end up average.<br><br>
It's important to keep in mind that not all gifted programs are created equal. Some schools can't afford traditional gifted testing. They instead fill their programs based on current academic levels, state and standardized test scores and not by IQ. This means the program may be largely full of high achievers who are in fact, not intellectually gifted. If your child is in a program like this, it wouldn't be a surprise if the pace was still too slow as he wouldn't neccessarily be only with other gifted children.<br><br>
There are also different temperments that color how giftedness is displayed. We have a friend whose DD is clearly brilliant. However, she needs SO much organizational help that she will never be as high-achiever as my ultra-organized child in the school setting. It doesn't mean she won't go on to greater achievements outside of school. It just means that despite her high giftedness, she's not going to get good grades and will often look less gifted than her more organized counter parts.<br><br>
You also have to take those grade level equivalents given during those tests with a grain of salt. The testing proces can be very misleading. You say he tested 8th grade level in math. Now, was that an out-of-level 8th grade math test (which would be algebra?) Or, as is most typical, was it a 2nd grade test in which he did as well as an 8th grader would do on the SAME test. This still tells you your child is very talented in math but it doesn't neccessarily mean they are truely ready or able to handle the 8th grade curriculum. Also, with reading, it's not unusual for a handful of end-of-year second graders to test at the 5th grade level for reading. I'm not saying this to make less of your son's abilities at all! My point is that these levels aren't particularly good for comparison.<br><br><br><br>
It's also important to take those "grade" tests with a grain of salt. They don't always mean what they seem. Unless your child took an 8th grade math test and passed it, it's hard to say he's
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15360945"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">My friends had their kids in montessori preschools and most of them told me that their child was in the gifted range.</div>
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All of them? Though a small self selected population might have an unusually large number of gifted kids in it, remember giftedness (depending on who defines it) only makes up between 2%-5% of the population.<br><br>
While early academic achievement is often a sign of giftedness, it can also simply be a sign of a early training. There are people who sit down their average 3 yo and do flash cards till the kid can read, then there are 2 yo who teach themselves to read, it is a very different situation.<br><br>
If you are just talking about a a particular kid, poor achievement now doesn't mean s/he's not gifted. Gifted kids, especially highly gifted kids, sometimes do very poorly in school b/c they find the curriculum dull and unengaging.<br><br>
It also sounds like your DS is more of a math kid than a verbal kid. I think verbally gifted kids are just easier to spot at young ages than mathmatically gifted ones. Language is part of our daily interactions in a way that math isn't. Also since more people are verbal than mathematical, they have an easier time relating to the verbal thing a verbal gifted kid is doing than the math things a mathematically gifted kid is doing. In fact the way early mathematic is often taught and recognized is actually more reliant on verbal skills (in my opinion a large part of the problem with how math is taught in this country.) Skills such as rote counting and memorizing base arithmatic (AKA "math facts" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll">) are actually verbal skills and have little to do with a well developed internal number sense.
 

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Whatnextmom's bang on. If he tested competently on a grade 8 math test, the school needs to do something about it. If he is that out of range, he needs accomodations.<br><br>
To your question, OP, yes, there are late bloomers and there is ample evidence that in some communities a high number of kids come out of the preschool years with advanced skills - but not all of them will maintain their ahead-of-norm achievement.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Now, one out of every three of us will have an IQ swing of as many as 15-30 points. Some of us will have multiple IQ swings between 15 and 30 points for the first fifteen, twenty years of our lives.<split> All the science says if you are doing any real assessment before third grade, you are only finding socioeconomic advantage and not actual intelligence or giftedness at all.</td>
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<a href="http://www.publicschoolinsights.org/visionaries/AshleyMerryman" target="_blank">http://www.publicschoolinsights.org/...AshleyMerryman</a><br><br>
This is one of the authors of Nurtureshock, which is an interesting read.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15360945"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">The teacher recommended him for the gifted program, but all the slots were filled up, presumably by the kids who were labelled gifted before kindergarten.</div>
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I think your anger has become distilled around these kids and their mothers when it should be directed at the school for not accomodating your son.<br><br>
You have every right to be upset, though.<br><br>
You also seem to be anti-preschool. Just curious, did your children attend?<br><br>
As far as your question, I dunno. Good question!
 

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First, welcome! You have raised some interesting issues.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15360945"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">My friends had their kids in montessori preschools and most of them told me that their child was in the gifted range. Now as you can imagine I felt concern for my young preschool aged kids because they seemed so late with everything, <b>from potty training to socialization to even talking and then once they talked it seemed like it took a while to talk well with decent grammar. When my eight year old started kindergarten he couldn't even hold a pencil and the teacher couldn't tell if he was right or left handed (turns out he's a lefty)!</b></div>
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Bolding mine. If your "friends" relied on the sorts of activities you've listed as signs of giftedness, then they don't have a good understanding of intellectually exceptional learners. Many of these activities, such as potty learning and hand dominance, are more related to physical (musculoskeletal) development than cognitive ability. Socialization depends on personality to an extent. Your friends confused physical development, personality and emotional maturity with cognitive ability.<br><br>
As an aside, my DS was also confused about left and right hand dominance when he was in kindie, although we had recognized it quite a few years earlier. He switched back and forth when he fed himself, brushed his teeth, played sports, as well as drawing and painting etc. He still uses his left for many sports activities, although he isn't fully ambidextrous. It's fairly common, and if your friends made you think this was a sign that your child was cognitively slow, that's really too bad.<br><br>
If you search old threads in this forum, you'll find a few about late talkers who are nonetheless intellectually gifted learners. Sometimes "still waters run deep" as they say.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15360945"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well fast forward just two years from there and my son is in second grade in a good public school. Somehow and I don't know how, he is testing at a fifth grade reading level and an eighth grade math level. He has been struggling with kids wanting to copy off of his paper and then later they bully him and call him 'nerd' and 'weird'. He tells me all he wants in life is to be average. All the gifted kids we knew now seem so much less advanced. My son was even told to tutor one of the gifted kids. Ironically, one of those gifted kids now bullies my son and calls him 'nerd'. My friends still think they have the gifted kids and still think my children are dull, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I don't like their assumptions of superiority especially when I don't consider them to be very intellectual.<br></div>
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Those other children may have been early achievers due to exposure to a lot of academics. Again, if you search old threads, you'll find some interesting discussions about "hothousing". It isn't uncommon for some parents to coach their children, in the belief that early academics provide a benefit. That is different than the gifted child who is intrigued and enthusiastic about learning, absorbs information at their own pace and because they enjoy it.<br><br>
It's hard to know from a single post, but reading between the lines, it sounds like early achievement was very important to your friends. If their children were coached or drilled to obtain basic reading and math skills, it isn't surprising that those children no longer appear gifted as they progress to more demanding work in school.<br><br>
It's also too bad that your "friends" act superior. They don't sound too friendly. You didn't ask for advice, but you may want to re-examine these relationships.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15360945"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">So what I don't understand is why there is so much emphasis on kids doing things early.. From my experience kids who are early to develop end up being average in intelligence later on. As an analogy, even animals seem to mature very early compared to humans as if humans need a slower, but longer maturation to increase intelligence or develop optimal cortical formation. Preschools promote early learning, give false hope to parents that their children are gifted and then make a good profit. The teacher recommended him for the gifted program, but all the slots were filled up, presumably by the kids who were labelled gifted before kindergarten.</div>
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Were these preschools promising to develop academic giftedness? There are unscrupulous schools out there. Thankfully, they are not all like that. Parents need to be careful though. We did a lot of research and found pre-schools that took a child-centred, child-directed approach and it was a wonderful experience for our dc.<br><br>
It's interesting that you have a gifted program that starts in kindergarten. Most of the programs I've had experience with don't start until late primary or middle elementary age. On the one hand, I'm a little encouraged to hear that there are early programs available somewhere. I am sympathetic to your frustrations though. In our district, if a child has been formally identified as gifted, then the onus is on the school to provide an appropriate enriched program - either in a gifted class or, if that's not possible, in the regular classroom. I hope that a position opens up for your child soon, but in the meantime, I hope he's getting some enrichment in class.<br><br>
You don't say whether you think your child's current classroom is a good learning environment for him. I hope the school is taking your concerns seriously and is dealing with the bullying. While it may be satisfying to be asked to tutor to someone in these circumstances (the history of acting superior etc.), it probably isn't going to work if the other child is name-calling and resentful about it.<br><br>
It sounds like you have quite a bit to sort out, with your friends, the school, and your dc. Good luck with everything.
 

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My DD, now 7, seemed average to us during the early years, but she exploded once she got to school.<br>
She seems to get more advanced and mature as time goes on and the gap between her and her classmates is getting bigger every year.<br><br>
I am so sorry to hear that you & your son are having bullying issues<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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I find a couple issues here.<br><br>
Let's take this for example...<br><i>Now as you can imagine I felt concern for my young preschool aged kids because they seemed so late with everything, from potty training to socialization to even talking and then once they talked it seemed like it took a while to talk well with decent grammar. When my eight year old started kindergarten he couldn't even hold a pencil and the teacher couldn't tell if he was right or left handed (turns out he's a lefty)! Anyway, I accepted the fact that my kids were dull to average in intelligence and that everyone else had these gifted kids.</i><br><br>
Nothing in the above indicates the child is NOT gifted.<br>
Potty training and socialization.... those are generally not things that one associates with giftedness. Pencil grip or right/left handedness.... again, neither of those items are associated with giftedness, even if they do not happen early.<br>
When I look at 'early traits of gifted kids', I have never seen lists that incorporate<br>
Potty training, socialization, pencil grip and handedness.<br><br>
My point, is that 4/5 of the items you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with giftednes, and if you were using those items as your barometer as to what early giftedness should look like, then you were completely off to begin with.<br><br>
As for speech, yes some gifted kids do speak early, but not all kids.<br><br>
There are a number of early signs assocated with giftedness, that from my experience are fairly valid, but even then a child doesn't have to exhibit all those items.<br>
My ds is 3, just became fairly conversational, his grammar isn't the best, his articulation is poor, but he show many other signs of giftedness.<br><br><br><br><br>
On the other end... you stated tons of your friends felt their kids were gifted. THis can be complex. If a parent is hot-housing a child, the child may not have ever been gifted to begin with. Secondly, some parents think that knowing ABC's and rote counting early indicates a child is exceptionally brainy, which again those aren't true gifted indicators. Unless these kids were tested as gifted, there is no way of knowing if any of these kids were actually gifted.<br><br>
Finally, just because your son is tutoring a child that you believe was gifted, doesn't meant that child is not gifted. Gifted does not mean the child is gifted across the board.<br>
My child is poor at math facts. It doesn't mean she isn't gifted.<br><br><br>
All of that is without even considering the fact that your child is a late bloomer, and yes that happens, but there are usually signs of something going on under the hood as well, but often parents miss those things.<br><br><br>
As to the bullying, and lack of accomodations... I think others have talked about that already. Those are the items that really need to be addressed.<br><br>
Tammy
 

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Discussion Starter #11
My son has definitely been bullied a bit, but has been able to deflect some of it by being a bit of a clown. He has been calling himself smart this year, but believes this to be a negative thing (despite what I tell him) because he believes this makes a person unlikable.<br><br>
The other parents haven't bullied me, but I do think they may have enjoyed having the smarter kids before and now that we are 'competition' for them they are not being nearly as friendly. I am comparatively young, non-white and uneducated and maybe they didn't think that I would be the one to have the academic children. They always did treat me with a bit of condescension. They still like to remind me of how early their kids did everything, but at this point it seems so irrelevant. I know this sounds terrible, but I am skeptical of their children's giftedness in part because of the parents' apparent inability to think independently.<br><br>
As far as hothousing, I don't think any of these parents that I know believe that they are hothousing. It is always somebody else that is doing the hothousing if you know what I mean. They believe that their kids have the natural gifts (even if they admit to you they used hooked on phonics) and it is the other ones who are pushing and pressuring.<br><br>
I'm still don't know if my son is gifted or just bright, but I don't want him to give up when it seems like he is just beginning to take off. I want him to have the guidance and support to take advantage of what this country has to offer. I don't want him to 'try' to be average because that's what people in this neighborhood expect him to be.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ollyoxenfree</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15362305"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If their children were coached or drilled to obtain basic reading and math skills, it isn't surprising that those children no longer appear gifted as they progress to more demanding work in school.</div>
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I wonder if this is partially why schools don't typically have gifted programs that start in kindergarten -- kids come in at vastly different levels, not necessarily b/c of giftedness, but also b/c of academic pre-schools, training from parents, etc. As the work becomes more complex, it becomes clearer who is actually gifted. Sort of like being able to memorize facts is not comparable to being able to apply those facts analytically in a different context. Being able to study hard and get straight A's is not comparable to achieving a very high score on the SAT, LSAT, etc.<br><br>
But anyway, what concerns me most about what you said is that your son is getting bullied for being advanced and that he wants to hide his knowledge to "fit in." I would really have a talk about this with him. I hate to think that he would hinder intellectual growth b/c of what other kids were saying....As far as the other parents, I would just ignore them; you know what's up, so to speak, and it's their issue, not yours.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15365019"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">He has been calling himself smart this year, but believes this to be a negative thing (despite what I tell him) because he believes this makes a person unlikable.</div>
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Where has he picked up the idea that smart = unlikeable? Is it from the other children? It sounds like the your friends' children haven't internalized their parents' attitudes about giftedness, if they are calling other children "nerds" for doing well in school. It sounds like there may be a lot of conflicting feelings about giftedness in your community. Is it also possible that he has picked up on your own conflicts about your friends' attitudes and how they believe their children are gifted?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15365019"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I'm still don't know if my son is gifted or just bright, but I don't want him to give up when it seems like he is just beginning to take off. I want him to have the guidance and support to take advantage of what this country has to offer. I don't want him to 'try' to be average because that's what people in this neighborhood expect him to be.</div>
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<br>
You haven't really asked for advice, so if you like, please ignore the following. I mean this gently too. You seem to be concerned about what other people are thinking about their children and yours. You can only control your own attitudes and beliefs. That is what your children will learn from you.<br><br>
Encourage your children, model a love of life-long learning and a belief in their own strengths, and teach them to rely on their own self-evaluation of what's important. If you don't pay attention to what other people are thinking and believing, then your children will learn from you to make their own assessments and decisions on what's right and wrong.<br><br>
It isn't easy to ignore others when they are wrong or offensive or insulting. It's irksome. Anger or frustration are pretty normal responses. It helps if you can laugh at them a little. It also helps to inform yourself about issues like giftedness, so that you can rely on your own research, rather than other's misguided beliefs.<br><br>
Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Perhaps there are conflicting attitudes in my community about intelligence or giftedness. I would like to be 'above' it all, but the fact remains that we are a part of the community, not an island unto ourselves. My son is social and has a need to be respected and well regarded. I think it is common advice to say that we shouldn't care about those things, but it is only human nature to care. I also find people's attitudes interesting from a sociological perspective.<br><br>
In actuality I'm a sensitive person to peoples' attitudes, but at the same time I analyze them, critique them and rebel against them. I believe the label of 'giftedness' is currently used among achievement oriented parents to describe their children whom they regard as 'trophy' kids. These parents are educated, but do not have the intellectual curiosity that you would expect. The children don't either. The focus is on being smart as a way to show some sort of class difference if you will, especially among liberal parents. I do think that the parents somehow 'bought' these labels, either by putting their kids in the right schools or going to a psychologist who gave the kids some kind of inflated scores.<br><br>
But the problem with all of this is that if a child is just naturally bright or gifted or whatever you want to call it, they are going to be very different from these others whose parents got them the label. Since the trait is more natural the kids are going to seem more 'nerdy' and they aren't going to fit in and they are going to get picked on because of it. The fact remains that our culture in the US is pretty anti-intellectual, but pro-achieving. It is okay to have the label of gifted, even impressive, as long as the child doesn't actually act like an intellectual. Yes, it is contradictory and is certainly not a great environment for a kid who is gifted who doesn't necessarily come from a household that is high achieving in a standard sense.
 

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I have not looked at the posts carefully, but wanted to say, that my son was a latetalker, and didnt appear particularly gifted, though at times seemed to have a surprising emotional intelligence. We have just done the statewide testing for Gifted and Talented, and he tested in the 99th percentile. He didnt have any preparation or tutoring (apparently many children do).<br>
Its a nice surprise, especially for a late talker. :)<br>
Maya
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15366655"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">But the problem with all of this is that if a child is just naturally bright or gifted or whatever you want to call it, they are going to be very different from these others whose parents got them the label. Since the trait is more natural the kids are going to seem more 'nerdy' and they aren't going to fit in and they are going to get picked on because of it. The fact remains that our culture in the US is pretty anti-intellectual, but pro-achieving. It is okay to have the label of gifted, even impressive, as long as the child doesn't actually act like an intellectual. Yes, it is contradictory and is certainly not a great environment for a kid who is gifted who doesn't necessarily come from a household that is high achieving in a standard sense.</div>
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I've been trying to reconcile the anti-intellectual attitude in the US with the push that every single person achieve a college diploma for a while, and this helps. Of course as achievement is pushed to be more and more universal, it pulls down the intellectual challenge level, making schools less and less suited for the truly intellectully gifted. If your going to have half the school take the "honors" classes, then the "honors" classes need to be slow paced and simple enough that average to slightly above average students can understand them.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15366655"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think it is common advice to say that we shouldn't care about those things, but it is only human nature to care.</div>
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I think it is natural for a child to care. I initially thought to myself that I personally don't care, but, then again, I do feel like I can't say certain things around certain people b/c they will look at me like I have three heads, so maybe I do care somewhat.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15366655"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">These parents are educated, but do not have the intellectual curiosity that you would expect. The children don't either. The focus is on being smart as a way to show some sort of class difference if you will, especially among liberal parents.</div>
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Being educated does not equal being intellectually curious, of course. As someone else said, there is a push for everyone to go to college in order to "get a good job," whether or not one is intellectually curious. I haven't noticed it having anything to do with being liberal or conservative, however.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15366655"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">But the problem with all of this is that if a child is just naturally bright or gifted or whatever you want to call it, they are going to be very different from these others whose parents got them the label.</div>
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A person who is not really gifted may look gifted early on, but it will eventually become apparent whether he is actually gifted. So, I wouldn't really be concered about whether one's parent was able somehow to place a label on an undeserving child...<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15366655"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Since the trait is more natural, the kids are going to seem more 'nerdy' and they aren't going to fit in and they are going to get picked on because of it. The fact remains that our culture in the US is pretty anti-intellectual, but pro-achieving. It is okay to have the label of gifted, even impressive, as long as the child doesn't actually act like an intellectual.</div>
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You make a lot of blanket statements here that are not true across the board, thank goodness. Believe it or not, it is possible to be gifted and not fit the "nerd" stereotype. Not all "nerds" are gifted, not all gifted people are "nerds". Thinking back to high school, a lot of the "popular" kids were very smart, in honors classes, etc. -- whether they were "gifted" or not, I don't know for certain/didn't see their IQ scores, but I am pretty sure at least some were. Granted, a lot of it depends on the particular school environment and the peer group. A lot it depends on the gifted child's personality, too. I think the real issue is finding a like-minded peer group for your son.<br><br>
Finally, being "gifted" also does not necessarily mean that one is an "intellectual," either, at least not in the typical sense. And vice-versa.
 

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I come from a family of Late Bloomers, very ordinary or even low-achieving as youngsters (up to age 14), that became very high achievers or attracted the label gifted later. Examples: me, my dad, DD, DS1, DH...<br><br>
So it is normal for us!!!<br><br>
I suspect that the current push for very early identification of G. children stems from 2 basic things:<br><br>
Making money -- eg., Ruf is doing alright out of her PhD and subsequent business.<br><br>
Increasing social equality -- kids who test high early on but don't achieve later is a common tragedy in the poorer social groups, often due to social pressure/forces that work against them wanting to become ambitious academically. Maybe if they were praised and nurtured better they would overcome the social/environmental handicaps.<br><br>
So... good and bad reasons for the focus on early ID of G. kids.<br><br>
It must suck if you are surrounded by competitive parents, luckily I have almost no friends IRL, so manage to avoid all that.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"><br><br>
The most gifted kids I know are HE and their parents don't have a clue how unusually talented and exceptional their DC are. They are adamant that their kids are entirely ordinary!
 

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I am relieved that my son bloomed when he did, still fairly early. But I wonder in this day and age, if like Cavy you don't 'bloom' until age 14, what will happen to your gift if you don't get on the 'gifted track'?<br><br>
My baby sister who is very bright, maybe even gifted, didn't get into the gifted program when she was a girl (she missed by a few points). After the rejection she was convinced that she was not gifted, just an average child who seemed kind of bookish. But something happened in high school around age 15 (a brain growth spurt?) and she started making the best grade in her science and math classes very regularly. She received a great SAT score (beating many of the former gifted kids) and even in college where she is right now she has professors tell her she is their brightest student especially in classes that really peak her intellectual curiosity. But the sad thing is she has her sights set so low because she never got into the gifted program way back when. She still doesn't believe she could be gifted because she was told she was not at such a young impressionable age.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>connieculkins</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15374667"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">My baby sister who is very bright, maybe even gifted, didn't get into the gifted program when she was a girl (she missed by a few points). After the rejection she was convinced that she was not gifted, just an average child who seemed kind of bookish. But something happened in high school around age 15 (a brain growth spurt?) and she started making the best grade in her science and math classes very regularly. She received a great SAT score (beating many of the former gifted kids) and even in college where she is right now she has professors tell her she is their brightest student especially in classes that really peak her intellectual curiosity. But the sad thing is she has her sights set so low because she never got into the gifted program way back when. She still doesn't believe she could be gifted because she was told she was not at such a young impressionable age.</div>
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The best achievement is actually usually associated with those who are either just mildly gifted or those who are very bright but not quite gifted.<br><br>
A very bright, but not quite gifted student, is smart enough to understand all the academics of a class such as algebra. S/he is in the habit of applying him/herself to his/her school work and functions well in a school setting. S/he will go over any parts that aren't quite 100% understood till s/he really has it down.<br><br>
A more gifted student can figure out most of the algebra curriculum by looking at it in the text book for an hour. S/he will rush through the class work sloppily, b/c s/he sees little point in it. S/he is in the habit of always just getting what is presented the first time, so if s/he doesn't actually understand some part 100% that detail is likely to be never looked into. Instead of focusing during class, paying attention and appling his/herself to his/her scool work, s/he has probably moved on to contemplating the validity of the big-bang tjeory (of course she needs to figure out how to get access to certain raw data that isn't easily found to see if the flaws she sees in the theory are actually there or if the book she read on the subject was simply a flawed presentation of what is actually a valid theory, but she just doesn't have the persistance and study skills needed to track down said raw data.)<br><br><br>
In my family, there are 3 of us sisters.<br><br>
Me and one of my sisters have high IQs, glide through standardized tests with ease (if there are no extenuating circumstances,) qualified for the gifted programs, etc. We also both had poor grades and were unfocused at the mediocre nearby colleges we attended. We both have a strange work history involving a fair amount of retail work.<br><br>
My other sister as an above average, but not really high IQ (yes my mom had issues so I know all of our scores.) She preformed on standardized test at about the same level she preformed in class. She did not qualify for any of the gifted programs. She got great grades in school. Went early to a top rate college. She attained a masters degree. She has a high paying job in a technical feild.<br><br>
I know this is just one story and hardy statistically significant, but from every thing I've read on the subject say the same thig, that there is an ideal level of intelligence that is right about on the threshhold of where most draw the gifted line, and as you get too much above it, achievement often drops unless there are significat accomidations made.<br><br>
ETA: I know there are a million typos in this, but my computer crashed so I'm on DH's with no spell checker and a sticky key board (DS eats near it a lot.)
 
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