Mothering Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,173 Posts
I'm agianst any legislation that interferes with parental choice. I'm in the position of doing things with my children that some would consider harmful. We did a few selective vax, we homeschool, I allow my children to have dairy or meat if they want but don't think either are necessary for being healthy. I listened to Jocelyn Elders and another man debate one night whether or not parents have the right to decide to vax or not. She pretty much said parents who didn't vax were uninformed and the man she was debating said that no, parents who don't vax generally are well informed. She thought non-vaxers were putting society at risk. I've seen stories in the news that have showed vegetarians or homeschoolers in a very bad light.

Another example of the government butting in where they don't belong is seat belt laws. I've always worn my seat belt even before it was the law. I think seat belts are a great life-saving device, but I think it is ridiculous for the government to make laws as to whether an adult wants to wear a seat belt or not.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
19,789 Posts
Anyone have a copy of the legislation itself?

While I am against corporal punishment/physical discipline/hitting, some of the article had me going
:

Quote:
But now, lawmakers are considering making "the willfull infliction of physical pain on children under 18," illegal.
So, what if your child is out of control and you GRAB them to contain them and they are hurt? Sometimes you might have to grab pretty hard to contain a child from *seriously* hurting themselves (running into traffic, etc...) especially if the child is large for their age or the parent is small (I have a 110 lb friend who had a 50 lb 2 year old who was *very* strong).

Without reading the bill, I think they need to start "smaller" ---- like no using objects/weapons while punishing children. As the story attests it is still all too common.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,142 Posts
Quote:
So, what if your child is out of control and you GRAB them to contain them and they are hurt?
.
So they could add the word premeditated or intentional maybe?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,369 Posts
Those posts in the comment section are enough to make me sick that's for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,594 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by beccaboomom
I'm agianst any legislation that interferes with parental choice.

snip

Another example of the government butting in where they don't belong is seat belt laws. I've always worn my seat belt even before it was the law. I think seat belts are a great life-saving device, but I think it is ridiculous for the government to make laws as to whether an adult wants to wear a seat belt or not.

I have to agree with beccaboomom. While I would love to see spanking parents reprimanded i think the better approach is to convince parents that they can gently discipline a child without hitting. I also think things like this can backfire, with parents hiding the fact they spank. At least now many parents will admit to it, and this is where we all come in to convince them otherwise.




TiredX2 - love your signature...have you heard the folks who directed "OutFOXed"are directing a movie about Walmart? Check it out Walmart: The High Cost of Low Price
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,550 Posts
I can't see how affording children the protection from being hit that every other human being in our country is already afforded could possibly be bad.

I'm all for educating about gentle discipline but let's be honest - some people just don't care enough to learn and will continue not to care as long as they can get the quick fix that comes from hitting their kid.

IMO, this is not a slippery slope. It is only bringing children level with the rest of society in terms of what sort of physical harm it is acceptable to perpetrate upon them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,067 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I can't see how affording children the protection from being hit that every other human being in our country is already afforded could possibly be bad.
:

If my husband hit me, that would be wrong. If he hit dd, that would be OK? To me, it's less about the government interfering in parenting and more about equal rights for children.

I can see the point about vaccination and medical care, homeschooling, all that. I can see how it would be slippery. Maybe I'm naive to think they are different issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,173 Posts
I have a friend who thinks that parents who don't vax are putting their children in danger and are bad parents. I don't offer my view on this because other than her very strong opinion of this we get along great and so do our kids. Now how would we feel if enough people of this opinion lobbied congress to pass legislation that made vaxing mandotory unless the child had medical reasons that he shouldn't be vaxed. I'm not ready to legislate my parenting practices on anyone. I've heard parents verbally assault thier children and I've seen the looks on some of these sweet little kids faces and it breaks my heart. How are we to help that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,550 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by beccaboomom
I have a friend who thinks that parents who don't vax are putting their children in danger and are bad parents. I don't offer my view on this because other than her very strong opinion of this we get along great and so do our kids. Now how would we feel if enough people of this opinion lobbied congress to pass legislation that made vaxing mandotory unless the child had medical reasons that he shouldn't be vaxed. I'm not ready to legislate my parenting practices on anyone. I've heard parents verbally assault thier children and I've seen the looks on some of these sweet little kids faces and it breaks my heart. How are we to help that?
Every individual person has the right to choose what medical care he/she will or will not receive. The government is, by law, not allowed to force medical care on an individual. Because the government has decided that children below a certain age are not able to make these decisions for themselves, their parents are able to make this choice as part of the set of parental rights so far protected under constitutional jurisprudence. Thus, in the case of vaccinating, the parent is protecting the autonomy of the child by making a decision that the child, were s/he of the age of majority, would be able to make for her/himself.

This is not the case with assault. When a parent hits a child, the parent is, instead, removing the child's right to bodily integrity that s/he would have if s/he were not a child.

It's a completely different scenario. Protecting children from being hit does not serve to steal from parents the ability to protect their children from harm in other areas any more than carseat laws do. It just puts children on equal footing where laws are concerned and gives parents a role in ensuring that those laws are followed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,594 Posts
I am just curious to know how folks think this law will be enforced? I am asking because I know my brother (a cop) will be asking me this very question when I mention this to him. Will a neighbor be able to call the police and say they saw the neighbor child spanked? Will the child be required to "tell" on their parent? If the child doesn't tell but there was a witness will the parent be taken in for questioning? What type of punishment will be involved? Jail time? Given the results on the poll that was attached to the article I would think we might need to hire a hundred thousand more police officers


I am asking these questions very seriously because this is precisely why I have problems with making a law like this.....It is not like I disagree that spanking=hitting and that children should be treated the same as adults. But many, many people spank because they believe that it is a moral and appropriate way to discipline a child. They are wrong, of course, but they need to be convinced of it by more than the threat of jail time. I think that someday it will be appropriate to have a law barring corporal punishment.

Everyone keeps bringing up seatbelt laws...I wear my seatbelt because I have been informed that seatbelts save lives in accidents and have been given statistics to back it up. I don't wear my seatbelt because of threat of a ticket. I don't hit other people because I have been taught that violence people doesn't solve anything and just perpetuates more violence. I don't "not hit" because the police may charge me with assault.

Instead of "no spanking" laws we need an all out well funded government campaign to convince people that spanking=hitting=horrible way to treat your child. We need to drill this idea into the hearts and minds of people. When we have a culture that says "spanking is wrong", we should legislate it for the few. I equate it with tobacco use....teens aren't legally allowed to get cigarettes. Do many teens smoke? Of course. What gets teens to stop smoking...threat of jail? Nope. Barraging them with the message that it is not cool to smoke and it will kill you. Yep.

Just my .02.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,168 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonfly
Every individual person has the right to choose what medical care he/she will or will not receive. The government is, by law, not allowed to force medical care on an individual. Because the government has decided that children below a certain age are not able to make these decisions for themselves, their parents are able to make this choice as part of the set of parental rights so far protected under constitutional jurisprudence. Thus, in the case of vaccinating, the parent is protecting the autonomy of the child by making a decision that the child, were s/he of the age of majority, would be able to make for her/himself.

This is not the case with assault. When a parent hits a child, the parent is, instead, removing the child's right to bodily integrity that s/he would have if s/he were not a child.

It's a completely different scenario. Protecting children from being hit does not serve to steal from parents the ability to protect their children from harm in other areas any more than carseat laws do. It just puts children on equal footing where laws are concerned and gives parents a role in ensuring that those laws are followed.
You said exactly what I wanted to say, but you say it more eloquently than I could.

I do not think that my DH has any more right to hit my DD than he has to hit me. However, there are people who still believe husbands should be able to hit their wives to keep them in line, and they could use every one of the arguments above, only replacing "child" with "wife." (or "parental" with "spousal," etc.) Still doesn't make it right, IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,067 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deirdre

Instead of "no spanking" laws we need an all out well funded government campaign to convince people that spanking=hitting=horrible way to treat your child. We need to drill this idea into the hearts and minds of people. When we have a culture that says "spanking is wrong", we should legislate it for the few.
Good point, Deirdre. A law against spanking sets up an adversarial relationship, wheras the sort of campaign you are talking about is educational, more respectful.

I would imagine that the idea with a law is to make it easier for people to intervene if they suspect abuse in the home. It would take out the "just a spanking" excuse, because even "just a spanking" would be illegal. Making what many people consider a grey area into black and white, yk?

It is something to think about isn't it? Jail time? A spanking ticket? Maybe parenting classes or community service?? I also think about all those times I saw someone hit their kid in public, especially growing up in Chicago. I think it happened more there than it does here, I don't know if that was the time or the place. Anyway, my mom always told me not to interfere (as a teenager, especially) because it would only make it worse. Would outlawing spanking change that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,550 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deirdre
I am just curious to know how folks think this law will be enforced? I am asking because I know my brother (a cop) will be asking me this very question when I mention this to him. Will a neighbor be able to call the police and say they saw the neighbor child spanked? Will the child be required to "tell" on their parent? If the child doesn't tell but there was a witness will the parent be taken in for questioning? What type of punishment will be involved? Jail time? Given the results on the poll that was attached to the article I would think we might need to hire a hundred thousand more police officers
[/b]
I haven't read the text of the bill, but I imagine there are already provisions for enforcement. They usually don't do one without the other.

I'd imagine that spanking would then be included under the offenses that trigger mandatory reporting requirements. I'm not sure that a child would be required to report (because the law doesn't generally place requirements like that on the victim). It would also, like other crimes, be something that people who witness it would be able to report and it would probably trigger a more serious social services investigation than it now does.

Quote:
They are wrong, of course, but they need to be convinced of it by more than the threat of jail time. I think that someday it will be appropriate to have a law barring corporal punishment.
I would be very surprised if jail time would be a punishment for a first offense. Most likely there would be required parenting classes. And I have to ask: when will that appropriate time come? When the majority of the US believes that it's not okay to beat up on our children? I'd submit to you that when that day comes, we won't need such a law. Then again, I honestly don't think that day will ever come as long as the law continues to allow us to treat our children like chattel. People think hitting children is a moral and appropriate choice at least in part because the law distinguishes between children and adults in this area and allows them to hit the former and not the latter.

Quote:
Instead of "no spanking" laws we need an all out well funded government campaign to convince people that spanking=hitting=horrible way to treat your child. We need to drill this idea into the hearts and minds of people. When we have a culture that says "spanking is wrong", we should legislate it for the few. I equate it with tobacco use....teens aren't legally allowed to get cigarettes. Do many teens smoke? Of course. What gets teens to stop smoking...threat of jail? Nope. Barraging them with the message that it is not cool to smoke and it will kill you. Yep.
Actually, this is very interesting: We're having a smoking discussion in Parenting Issues right now. Do you know what the single biggest factor is in whether or not a child will smoke? It's whether or not his parent smokes. And what is one of the most common justifications heard by people who hit their children? "My parens spanked me and I turned out just fine." The fact is that children are being taught by their parents that hitting children is okay. These children are going to grow up and hit their children. It's just one more reason to cut the cycle off now. And education alone just isn't going to do it because people, for the most part, don't want to be educated. They need some incentive to learn another away and, unfortunately, their children's emotional well-being (and, so, their grandchildren's and great-grandchildren's and so on) is not incentive enough because they truly don't believe they are harming their children.

Personally, I think we need both - a drive for education and a law that says, "Hey, children are people and it is NOT okay to hit people!"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,119 Posts
how is an adult hitting a child in an attempt to control his/her behavior any different than someone hitting their spouse in an attempt to control his/her behavior? Why is one ok and the other not? Why can't all domestic violence be treated the same way, using the same laws? Yes, there are shortcomings to the way it is dealt with, even when it's about adults, but at least we're making progress. I'd bet anything that all the reasons given to justify hitting children have been used at some time or another to justify hitting a disobedient wife. Doesn't make it ok.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,369 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I can't see how affording children the protection from being hit that every other human being in our country is already afforded could possibly be bad.
This deserved to be quoted again. I'm ITA!!!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,570 Posts
Parental choice?
Please. I hear that tired argument used to justify circumcision. No parent deserves the choice to hit a child.

I guess the government should stay out of my marriage and let me hit my spouse?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
19,789 Posts
Quote:

Originally Posted by Momtwice
So they could add the word premeditated or intentional maybe?
But then you get people who say they spank to "startle" their child or slap them in the face to "get their attention"--- not to hurt them
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top