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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/05/measles-vaccine-protects-against-other-deadly-diseases

I thought this was really interesting!

"Measles kills about 140,000 people worldwide every year, but the millions of kids who have survived the disease aren’t in the clear. A new epidemiological study suggests that they remain susceptible to other infections for more than 2 years, much longer than researchers anticipated. The results bolster a hypothesis that the measles virus undermines the immune system’s memory—and indicate that the measles vaccine protects against other deadly diseases as well.

Researchers have long known that measles inhibits the immune system, but they generally thought this effect wore off after a few months at the most. However, studies of children in developing countries, where most cases occur, found that measles vaccination reduces the overall death rate from infections for up to 5 years, suggesting that preventing the disease provides protection against other illnesses.

In 2012, Rik de Swart of Erasmus MC in Rotterdam, Netherlands, and colleagues revealed that the measles virus kills large numbers of memory cells, white blood cells that prevent subsequent infections by the same pathogen. Thus, the measles virus might cause what the scientists termed immunological amnesia, impairing the immune system’s ability to remember and quickly eliminate other microbes it has already beaten. As a result, “you are vulnerable to diseases you shouldn’t be vulnerable to,” says Michael Mina, lead author of the new paper and a medical student at Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta.

Measles vaccination started in the 1960s in the United Kingdom and United States and in the 1980s in Denmark, and the researchers had statistics from before and after its introduction.

The team’s mathematical analysis tried to determine whether there was a relationship between the number of measles cases and the number of kids who died from other diseases. If the virus inhibits immunity for only a short time, for example, the number of deaths from other infections in a specific year might correlate to the number of measles cases in that year. But if the virus triggers a prolonged immune amnesia, the number of deaths in a particular year might correlate to the total number of cases in that year and the previous year or two.

Using this approach, the researchers calculated that children who survive measles remain vulnerable to other diseases for an average of 2.5 years. The value was almost the same for all three countries, the team reports online today in Science. “Our results suggest that the adverse effects of measles are much more lasting,” Mina says.

To check that the immune impairment resulted from measles, the researchers analyzed statistics for whooping cough, which doesn’t suppress the immune system. They found no link between the number of whooping cough cases and mortality from other infectious diseases.

Mina and his colleagues also determined that the length of susceptible period didn’t change in any of the three countries after introduction of vaccination. That finding supports the idea that the measles vaccine benefits children not just because it prevents them from getting measles, but also because it provides protection against the other diseases.

“It is indirect evidence,” says William Moss, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland. But he says that the results are “highly suggestive” that measles is contributing to this longer period of immune suppression. And if the researchers are right, he says, “the benefits of measles vaccination are far greater than simply the reduction in measles deaths.”

Here's the study abstact http://www.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694

What do you guys think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I actually think this link does a bit better of a job at explaining it.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2015/05/07/measles-immune-system/#.VUu8hpR4q0c
The last paragraph of this link sums it up nicely:

"Importance of Vaccines

The findings underscore the importance of the measles vaccine. If measles increases the rate of other infectious disease, then removing measles from the population should decrease the rate of other infectious diseases – and that’s exactly what’s seen in the historical record.

As countries have introduced national measles vaccination campaigns, childhood mortality from all infectious diseases, not just measles, dropped by 50 percent in those countries. In the U.S., prior to measles vaccination in the mid-1960s, 15 children in every 100,000 died of infectious diseases (not counting measles). After the vaccine eradicated measles from the population, that death rate dropped to 6 children in every 100,000.

“When the secondary effects on other infectious disease mortality is taken into account, it appears that the measles vaccine is amongst the – if not the – single greatest public health intervention worldwide, resulting in the largest reduction in childhood deaths perhaps except for clean water and the whole field of antibiotic therapy,” said Mina."

NBC news has covered it as well: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/measles-outbreak/measles-vaccination-saves-you-more-measles-n355501

:thumb
 

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You should post this on the VOS forum. I have this idea that that forum should be flooded with good science and studies, so when parents come for info, it is easily accessible.
 

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You should post this on the VOS forum. I have this idea that that forum should be flooded with good science and studies, so when parents come for info, it is easily accessible.
Since you're here, please give us your thoughts in detail on the study, since you refer to it as good science.
 

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I see a press release in Tea's OP and a really vague abstract: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/348/6235/694

I honestly am not sure if that's enough to go on to declare it "good science." Has anyone read the study?
Haven't read it (does anyone have a link to the study) but at a quick glance in the articles posted it continuously mentions that the vaccine prevents other infectious diseases and illnesses but doesn't indicate or go into detail what other infectious diseases they are referring to. I'd like to see a breakdown of that and what they found in the study regarding the types of non-measles infections the vaccine was protecting against. I'd have to assume if they studied this extensively, that they would be able to bring a return of the list of infectious diseases the vaccine is preventing in the process, and we'd have to look at the underlying health of the children as well. So far, what has been presented is not convincing enough to make a conclusion.
 

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You should post this on the VOS forum. I have this idea that that forum should be flooded with good science and studies, so when parents come for info, it is easily accessible.
Really? Huh. I occasionally post links to new research or studies in INV, but for the most part I think they belong on the main forum. Studies should be challenged - not residing in a virtual echo chamber.

That being said, it is a free forum and tea or anyone else can do as they please.
 

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So - tried to access full study. Can't. Oh well. Abstracts are not sufficient if someone wants to explore the study.
 

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Haven't read it (does anyone have a link to the study) but at a quick glance in the articles posted it continuously mentions that the vaccine prevents other "infectious diseases" and illnesses but doesn't indicate or go into detail what other infectious diseases they are referring to. I'd like to see a breakdown of that. I'd have to assume if they studied this extensively, that they would be able to bring a return of the list of infectious diseases the vaccine is preventing in the process. So far, what has been presented is not convincing whatsoever.
The researchers are claiming that measles collapses the immune system, thereby making the body susceptible to any number of deadly diseases. So it's fair not to name specific diseases for this phenomenon.

This could mean serious stuff in places like China, which just had a measles outbreak despite a ridiculously high vaccine compliance rate. Impoverished pockets are more vulnerable to horrible diseases, so people who've had measles in poor parts of China may have to face even more horrible illnesses in the next 2.5 years.

I'd like to know more about the study because I'm a little cynical about its timing, (i.e. immediately after an unusually hyped measles outbreak and in the wake of a super-duper aggressive push for MMR compliance).
 

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Tea - you literally cut out parts of the article that did not make your point!



"Mina and his colleagues also determined that the length of susceptible period didn’t change in any of the three countries after introduction of vaccination. That finding supports the idea that the measles vaccine benefits children not just because it prevents them from getting measles, but also because it provides protection against the other diseases. In the days before vaccination, measles was responsible for about half of childhood deaths from other illnesses, the team says. With that many dead children, why didn’t researchers detect this connection before? Many assumed that measles’ impact on the immune system quickly faded, Mina says. “So when a kid gets pneumonia 6 months later, nobody would link that to measles.” Other studies of children in West Africa didn’t show a lasting “measles shadow.” Mina and colleagues note that half of the kids in these studies died from other diseases within 2 months after they had measles, which would have made it difficult to detect a long-term effect.
“That there could be a prolonged immunosuppression is possible,” says vaccine immunologist Katie Flanagan of Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. But the study “is a long way from really proving it.” For example, researchers need to show that the kids who had measles are the ones dying from other illnesses, she says."
 

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JUST got done hearing the talking head on the local Christian radio station (which is a SDA station, interestingly) report on this hard hitting and settled scientific study. He made it sound like it was 100% fact that getting "a measles vaccine" (which doesn't even exist) means you never get sick with anything...and the actual study isn't even available, LOL!

I already called the station and told them that I will never financially support them because of their hypocritical vaccine stance as a Christian station..pro life? Yeah right.
 

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The researchers are claiming that measles collapses the immune system, thereby making the body susceptible to any number of deadly diseases. So it's fair not to name specific diseases for this phenomenon.
To make such claims, there would need to be extensive research. I think being able to determine the infectious diseases in each of these individuals would be important to see if any of those diseases occur at the same rate, or are completely different and random. Are there any common variables? I think breaking down and determining the number and types of infectious diseases they encountered would be an important factor in weighing the information as well. They surely must have recorded the infectious diseases these individuals encountered after the measles infection during these studies, right? Why not present them as well.

Also, it would be important in determining the underlying health of the children who were exposed to the infectious diseases after having the measles, and even their health before measles, and it's important to determine how the measles was managed during infection? Could mismanaging the measles infection and interfering with the immune system process in the incorrect manner during infection have anything to do with immune system weakness down the road?

What else could be cutting down the rate of all infectious diseases besides the measles vaccine? Many things have changed since the vaccine has been introduced, so why are we to assume it's the vaccine? There easily can be something else that has changed the course of infectious disease that has nothing to do with the vaccine.

These are all questions that would have to be addressed to verify such claims.

Apparently, they are far from it, as "immune amnesia" is currently just a hypothesis.

I gather they are focusing primarily on trying to search and find and report on more benefits of the vaccine, even if it's a stretch, because of the current circumstances we are in now. Did you see the number of articles out there on this already? And it hasn't even been CONFIRMED AS TRUE! But people will see it and believe it sadly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Tea - you literally cut out parts of the article that did not make your point!



"Mina and his colleagues also determined that the length of susceptible period didn’t change in any of the three countries after introduction of vaccination. That finding supports the idea that the measles vaccine benefits children not just because it prevents them from getting measles, but also because it provides protection against the other diseases. In the days before vaccination, measles was responsible for about half of childhood deaths from other illnesses, the team says. With that many dead children, why didn’t researchers detect this connection before? Many assumed that measles’ impact on the immune system quickly faded, Mina says. “So when a kid gets pneumonia 6 months later, nobody would link that to measles.” Other studies of children in West Africa didn’t show a lasting “measles shadow.” Mina and colleagues note that half of the kids in these studies died from other diseases within 2 months after they had measles, which would have made it difficult to detect a long-term effect.
“That there could be a prolonged immunosuppression is possible,” says vaccine immunologist Katie Flanagan of Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. But the study “is a long way from really proving it.” For example, researchers need to show that the kids who had measles are the ones dying from other illnesses, she says."
Just testing to see who was paying attention :wink:

The authors note why some studies in West Africa didn't show a lasting "measles shadow" in the next sentence you bolded: "West Africa didn’t show a lasting “measles shadow.” Mina and colleagues note that half of the kids in these studies died from other diseases within 2 months after they had measles, which would have made it difficult to detect a long-term effect."

The countries they did the analysis on in the study from the OP were for the US, United Kingdom and Denmark.

It's interesting because they did use another disease not known to suppress the immune system as a control (pertussis) and didn't find the same dramatic drops in mortality. Additionally, the years that the MMR vaccine were introduced were different for the US/UK and Denmark, yet the data shows the same thing for all three ruling out some other kind of intervention as the culprit. As this article in Forbes puts it:

"The researchers’ mathematical modeling was precise enough to calculate that the memory-wipe from measles infections lasts an average 27 months. Data showing infectious disease deaths occurring within a window of a few years after measles infections supported this finding as well.

“Studies like this are tough to do, but they purposely picked an outcome that was easily measurable – death – rather than something that would be more difficult to find in historical records, such as illnesses,” Smith said. “The three different countries and databases they chose all support the findings, even though measles vaccines were introduced in the UK and US in the 1960s but not until the 1980s for Denmark, so that rules out a simple worldwide trend that may have been occurring in the mid-century.”

Further, the researchers looked for similar patterns from pertussis and didn’t see the same effect.

“They have multiple controls that suggest this really is just an effect of the measles virus, and therefore prevented by the vaccine,” Smith said. “The data fit in with previous studies that have seen this effect (but they weren’t sure of the cause), and with others that looked specifically at immune responses following measles infections, so it looks fairly convincing.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahae...-infections-too-by-preventing-immune-amnesia/

Very interesting indeed.
 

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Measles enters the body through the mouth or nose. It's spread through the air and that is why it makes it so contagious. As measles enters your body it starts attacking the macrophage cells by taking them over. Natural Killer cells are so affective that the chance of measles surviving is 30%. NK cells will pretty much tell the macrophage cells to just perish. Dendrictic cells enter the area and start collecting this information to report back to the lympth nodes. Many people will have had measles without a rash but have a mild fever. Measles does play dirty and it does so by taking over the Dendritic Cell, this is a quick ride to the lymph nodes and can cause serious destruction. It attacks the virgin t and b cells at a incredible rate. With that said the entire system is compromised.. high fever, rash, headaches and coughing. It's so contagious that a minor cough sends out millions of measles strains. Since the entire system is compromised, it has a hard time stopping bacteria and other forms of viruses from entering the body. It attaches to measles virus and becomes airborne. A person normally doesn't die from measles itself, it's the flood gate allowing other bacterium and viruses to enter the body. If the water you drink is filthy, food isn't cooked, living conditions poor your chance of living is 10%. The body at this stage is miles away from giving up. Our body genome is made up of around 5x15 to the 12 power per 8 inches of dendtritic cells. It takes only one to tell plasma cells to counter measles. If measles makes it that far, recovery is 3 weeks or less.

Does the measles vaccines protect you from getting other diseases? No, your immune system still needs to eradicate them.

I think the article is talking about getting the measles vaccine so if you do catch measles in a natural way, you don't die from other bacteria/viruses on earth. You don't have to deal with measles, just the other things like flu, pneumonia etc.
 

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Keep in mind that a person that is infected with measles and is not vaccinated will have life long immunity. Also, the behaviour internally is very different. How did live measles behave? What changes to cells did it attempt, how fast did it replicate. Was there any reverse rna/dna attempts or genetic mutation? Was there a high or low change in peptides in the body. There is a lot that our immune systems record and store into memory.

The measles vaccine is a simplistic approach, it's an attenuated vaccine virus. Meaning it was modified to reproduce slowly or not at all.
 

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So, if measles vaccination contributed to a decreased death rate in the USA one would expect it to show (if the effect was large enough) in the stats.

The measles vaccine was introduced in the USA around 1963. There was no huge downward trend in childhood deaths after 1963 (graph won't cut and past - but second page)

http://www.hrsa.gov/healthit/images/mchb_child_mortality_pub.pdf

I get that the graph is on all causes of deaths, not just infections. I do think it safe to say that the so-called (at this point) measles affect did not affect mortality rate in the USA in a big way. The graphs do not show it.

_______

Musing above aside and assuming the study is true, it does not change the fact that:

1. Some people are going to decide the risks of measles vaccination outweigh the benefits - and that should be their call.

2. MMR does have "diploid cells." Some people really are not Ok with that.

3. Even if a fence sitter thought the measles vaccine might be a good idea (and I am not a fence sitter but I do think the case for it is stronger than most other vaccines) it is tied to mumps and rubella - vaccines I have zero interest in young kids having.
 

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Why on earth would I do that? You've made up your mind.
You do it for lurkers and fence sitters. If you have no interest in that, then you are wasting your time in this forum, IMHO. This is not personal and you can obviously do as you like - but no one here expects to change the minds of those who are convinced either way. Everyone does it for the fence sitters.
 
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