MIDWIVES : We Created This !!!

I wish your post would have given a little more info

I do agree with the problems liscensing midwives has made, and for this I will site what just happened to WI

Blacks Law Dictionary defines liscense as "Getting a permit to do something that would otherwise be illegal"

Since when is midwifery illegal

Only when it is liscnsed, then it becomes illegal

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=414661

carefully read what it says on the right hand side

Quote:
When this bill was first starting out I was told by the WI midwives guild that the liscensing was going to be VOLENTARY

Does this sound like volentary to you

Furthermore there is a 30 year practicing midwife on the WI mildwives Guild who is now going to be forced out of practice b/c of this bill b/c she is a lay midwife

Quote:
I got an email from Katie Prown today saying she never said this

Sure Katie, whatever
First you lie to us, screw us student midwives over, and then cover it up

Thank you so much for ruining my dreams of a carrer

I absolutely refuse to acknowledge that midwifery is illegal and therefore will NEVER get liscensed or hire a liscensed midwife

Looks like UC for me from now on

Thank you so much Midwives guild, you have given the medical community exactly what they wanted
CONTROL OVER HOMEBIRTH

Quote:

You seem to have a deep misunderstanding of the law and of the legal situation faced by midwives in unregulated states. In states like Illinois and Wisconsin, where midwifery is neither regulated nor exempted from the medical and nurse practice acts, midwives are subject to criminal prosecution for simply practicing midwifery.

Wisconsin midwives and midwifery advocates are to be applauded for acting proactively in obtaining regulation, rather than waiting for their numbers to be decimated by state action against them.

Quote:
In a sense, midwifery licensure is always voluntary. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and force you to obtain a license. You will always have the option to practice illegally. The difference is that it won't be a job requirement.

Quote:
If you are going to accuse Katie Prown of lying, you better come with better ammunition than that. I have had the good fortune to know Katie for several years, and she is truly one of hardest working, most dedicated midwifery advocates I know. And by the way, is this really the place to engage in personal attacks?

Quote:
Oh please. No hyperbole there..no sirree. No one has ruined your dreams of a "carrer" <sic>. Quite the contrary -- by creating legislation which defines midwifery separately from the practice of nursing and medicine, the Wisconsin bill is probably the best step that could be taken to preserve midwife-attended homebirth for future generations.

Quote:
Your choice.

Quote:
What gives the medical community "control over homebirth" is a lack of licensure defining midwifery as a separate profession. The result is what has happened in Illinois -- any state agency with a vendetta can define midwifery as nursing or medicine, and prosecute those who practice it. When there aren't any rules, they are created by those with the most power. Midwifery regulations creates the rules by which all must play.

Valerie
Illinois

what is worse, the small possibliy of being prosecuted in a state where there is NO regulation or practicing illegally and there being a LARGE possibility of prosecution

Quote:
I had HUGE respect for Katie, but now that respect is dashed. She lead this fight, adn I fought along side her, and it breaks my heart at the things she said

This was supposed to be a bill that would define legally that DE-CPM's would be safe from prosecution, adnthat it would be volentary . It is no longer volentary. It is forced or you cant work.
How many first time homebirthers are going to hire a midwife who isnt liscensed????

Quote:
What about the other states that have liscensing available who midwives adn yet it has become so difficult to obtain one and all the liscensed midwives have been prosecuted for practicing legally
Midwifery is basically illegal no matter what the lawbooks say
There was a poster here who was talking about this same thing. She was willing to hire an out of state midwife, who was 3 hours away..

Other than Helen Dietrich who I do not consider to be a midwife, when was the last time you heard of a midwife being prosecuted in WI for doing her job?????????

Quote:
I did applaud them adn I was one of them
UNTIL the wording was changed!!!!!!!!!!
And then I watched as it all went down hill

Quote:

Quote:
To an extent I agree, why not just creat legislation to define midwifery as non medical and say no midwife will be prosecuted for being a midwife

The medical community now has it's hands in the pockets of midwives, liscenses can be denied, all the time they are denied in MO. They are really benefitting from midwives having to be liscensed.
What happens when a woman applies for a liscnse and her application just sits in a pile for YEARS

What about all the Lay Midwives in WI, some of whom has year more experience than others and now what
They cant practice as of April 8th, or else they get thrown in jail andfined for something they have been doing for 30 years.
I know your response will be just b/c a CPM
That is harder than it seems, there are costs in volved, time to take off to take the NARM exams, etc......

What we will see is the Lay Midwives drop out of practice, no new midwives coming in, a severe lack of new apprenticeships, and eventually a regulation of homebirthing
The door has been opened for the gov't to step in and take over more and more rights

We are all in this struggle to keep homebirth free, and yet we are the ones starting it's demise

I cant remember the author's name off hand who said it but it she said make sure you have a good lawyer

This should have been the model. Practice normally and if you do find yourself in legal hotwater, fight it

there are midwives all over the US fighting to mauintain that they are doing nothing wrong
Why then, did we bow to the preassure , instead of fighting back?????????

Quote:
this is an excellent article on Shaheeda's trial. Glad you were able to find it. Washington is quite a mess- LMs there have a fairly large scope of practice but without any self governing power-- I think that if Washington midwives were to have a next step in protecting their own it would be to have a governing midwifery board, just like the nurses and docs have. I know that there are a few midwifery associations in Washington but none have any real administrative power. and there is a real difference between the midwives there being regulated via trial or threat of trial and actually going to jail--- the state investigators have probably broken the law themselves and some investigation into the operation of the department needs to be done--- the bankrupting of the midwifery department , raising midwifery fees above the legally allowable amount-- generating their own pay checks by creating investigations without merit.
----------
Wisconsin on the other hand it is good that a license can be had--and that the license is realistically obtainable. It is especially useful for a student at this time because the track that a student will follow is laid out, and all the old midwives who have been practicing can become CPMs, change can feel overwhelming at times but being legal actually has some protections for the midwife
- and as it has been stated you can choose to not obey the law, and take the same risks you would have before. you may have to really look at your choices and see what risks you and your family are willing to live with
in a different state I chose to practice without a license and did so for several years and I have to say working on my license where I live now feels good, I don't have to worry about many things I worried about before like stopping a hemorrhage using a med. it is hard enough to just practice and worry about details of the work itself without the added worry of protecting myself from jail for doing the right things.
take care

Quote:
That is not how it plays out in real life. In states where midwifery becomes licensed and regulated, the witchhunts tend to stop. The state seems to perceive that the issue has now been "settled" and does not go out looking for unlicensed midwives. If you have any statistics to the contrary, I would be delighted to see them.

Quote:
Kate has stated on several occasions and in several places that she was misquoted. Have you considered accepting her at her word, instead of accusing her of "lying"? Having been interviewed and quoted many, many times, I can assure you that misquotes are rampant.

Quote:
Probably a lot of the same homebirthers who currently hire unlicensed midwives. And licensure is not "forced", as I mentioned in my previous post. If you don't want to get a license, then don't get a license. You can choose to practice illegally, or you can choose to get a license and work within the law. The point is, you get to CHOOSE.

Quote:
"All the licensed midwives have been prosecuted for practicing legally"?? Cite? Or is this just more hyperbole?

Quote:
How odd. In your previous post, you said that you would never accept that midwifery is illegal. Which is it? Or is it that midwifery is currently legal, and regulation makes it illegal?? What a strange Orwellian world you live in...

Quote:
You may not consider Helen Dentice to be a midwife, but the State of Wisconsin does, and -- if memory serves -- one of the counts against her is the unlicensed practice of medicine. That same charge could be levied against any other Wisconsin midwife. I kind of doubt that the State is going to consult with you first, to determine whether the suspected midwife is *really* a midwife.

The problem is this -- where there is no legal definition and regulation of midwives, the State can and will define their actions as the practice of medicine or nursing, and prosecute them accordingly. It is a pattern that has been seen throughout the country. There is no legal protection for midwives and midwifery until they are first defined and accepted as a specific profession.

Quote:
It didn't go "down hill". It was a bill that received tremendous grassroots support, and was the result of a lot of successful lobbying by midwives and midwifery advocates. What happened in WI is the envy of an awful lot of midwives in other, unregulated states.

Quote:
Because that isn't how legislation works. Passage of a bill is a balancing act, requiring a lot of compromise between individuals and groups who have things to gain and things to lose.

With all respect, your suggestion is a little naive. In states (like IL, though I assume WI is similar) where even wrestling officials, cosmetologists, and nail technicians are licensed, it is unrealistic to believe that midwives are somehow exempt from similiar regulation.

Quote:
Then that aspiring licensed midwife needs to find out what is causing the delay, and act on it. Perhaps that is an issue that should be addressed if and when it actually occurs?

Quote:
No, you don't know my response. My response is as it was above -- if a midwife wants to continue to practice as an unlicensed midwife, she can continue to do that. She can continue to take the risks of unlicensed practice, as she has done for the past 30 years (or whatever). The difference, as I have said before, is that it is now a CHOICE, and not a requirement of midwifery practice.

As to becoming a CPM. I do understand the difficulties -- I became a CPM in 1996, and I was proud to do it. But to imply, as you do, that it is tooooooooo harrrrrrrrrd seems a lot like whining.

Quote:
You do have a gift for being an alarmist. Where midwives are not regulated, state prosecution has resulted in few midwives, few midwifery students, and lack of access to midwife-attended homebirth for families. I find this statement of yours to be particularly interesting:

"Practice normally and if you do find yourself in legal hotwater, fight it."

Have you ever been in "legal hot water"? Have you ever had to come up with bail money or $$$$$$$$$ for a lawyer's retainer? Have you ever been part of litigation that stretches on for years? That is kind of an odd suggestion for someone who complains about the costs and time involved in taking the NARM exam. You want expense? Try being embroiled in a legal battle.

While I appreciate the sincere passion in your posts, they are based on speculation, exaggeration, and misinformation.

Valerie
Illinois

Quote:
Hehe...true enough...or the new law in Utah, too. I guess the problem is that we live in very different states, with very different politics and power structures. What works for Oregon and Utah doesn't have a chance in most states, alas.

Valerie
Illinois

I agree with both sides of the argument. They are both good arguments.

I am ambivalent about passing a law where I live in MA.

This means that yes, we may have some protection if we have a board of midwifery, but it also means that regulations may restrict important options for birthing families, and this is tragic.

HB is so not a part of mainstream American culture and Drs are deemed as experts and so many of them have no understanding of natural birth, the midwifery model of care and homebirth. And worse, they care not to even look at what it really is.

For this reason, I do not even believe that a midwifery law could fully protect birthing families and midwives in any state, and Washington is a perfect example of this. Do I think it could prevent some frivolous trials, yes I do. But, I don't know what the better of the two options is.

CAN ANYONE TELL US WHAT THE JUDGE SAID IN SHAHEEDA's CASE? They said the judge was supposed to speak on this case by January.

Thanks all, Paige

As a new midwife in an "alegal" state (alegal meaning legal until one of my moms or babies has trouble when I can be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a licence, practicing nursing without a license, criminal negligence, child abuse or manslaughter) I have to say that I would gladly welcome legislation like Oregon's or Utah's or even Wisconsin's. I think that those of us in illegal/alegal states need to be careful when supporting midwifery bills so that we don't back ourselves into a corner like Washington has, but I will go out limb here and say that with the possible exception of the exorbitant license fees, midwives in Washington still have it better than midwives in Michigan (where I am).

I feel sorry for Shaheeda. She sounds like a courageous, competant midwife. But we must remember that what she is fighting for is her license, not her innocence in a criminal case. I would guess that Yvonne Cryns of Illinois would have gladly changed places with her when she was going through her long and difficult criminal case for a breech birth gone wrong (she was charged with manslaughter, I believe). If Yvonne threw in the towel and gave up her defense, she would be in jail. If Shaheeda threw in the towel now, she would just lose her ability to practice midwifery legally in the state of Washington. The two aren't even remotely equivalent, I think.

Oregon having dual status licensed and unlicensed alike are allowed practice- no creation of one standard at the cost of the other-- but the law passed many years ago. in recent years being unlicensed was an advantage because the governing board was sued which raised the cost of licensing for a period of time but licensing cost have come down again. Also midwifery has flourished in Oregon partly because of the freedom afforded the midwives--- if Oregon did not have a law, I do not think that there would be as many home births there now, midwives are self governing and with no illegal status any practice style is possible-- the laws attracted midwives, and in the highly populated areas of the state women have many midwives and practice styles to choose from-- I would guess that even in the general hospital birthing population those women probably know of atleast one family who has had a home/midwife attended birth- In New Mexico similar things have happened although I don't think that they have a large "unlicensed" group of midwives- the midwives are self-governing working with the health department- and a basically straight forward and affordable way to become licensed -- women should not have to put their lives in harms way in order to serve other women, the practice of midwifery , just like breast feeding should be protected and legal-- not alegal just waiting for the wrong situation - as you know anything can happen at a birth the last thing you want to worry about is if you are going to go to jail for things you did right like stop a hemorrhage or any number of other actions that could be construed as "medical"

Quote:
I think you make an excellent point -- well, several excellent points. Oregon (and more recently, Utah) have wonderful, non-mandatory licensing. But even in states where voluntary licensure is *never* going to be an option, regulation is necessary for the reasons you cite. Midwives should never be required to risk criminal prosecution in order to serve other women, and as long as there is no specific regulation regarding midwifery, that will continue to be the case.

In looking at Washington, I think it is also good to consider that Washington has licensed midwives for quite a long time -- it had to develop its own standards and its own testing procedures. States which have more recently enacted licensing laws have used the CPM credential as the basis for regulation. Because the CPM was specifically designed by DEMs for DEMs, it is a lot more sensitive to the needs and abilities of DEMs.

Valerie
Illinois

Quote:
Yes, Yvonne was originally charged with two criminal counts: 1) manslaughter of an unborn child; and 2) manslaughter. She was acquitted of the first count, and the second count resulted in a hung jury (voting 10 - 2 to convict) and a mistrial. The eventual resolution was that she made a deal with the State's Attorney to drop the other manslaughter charge in exchange for a lesser charge of reckless conduct, a misdemeanor. She agreed to an 18-month probationary period, 100 hours of community service, and a $250 donation to a local Children's Advocacy Center.

And I agree with you -- criminal charges are not even remotely the same as disciplinary action against a license.

Valerie
Illinois

Quote:
This was posted on 1/20/06 on a Washington State website:

"In December 2005 the Midwifery Program placed the license of midwife Shaheeda L. Pierce (MW00000261) on probation for five years. She must comply with terms and conditions. She provided treatment that fell below standard."

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Publicat/2006_news/06-009.htm

Valerie
Illinois

What Valerie has stated is true I have had some personal correspondence with Shaheeda but have not gotten a press release. What the judge found was that midwives can do breech births ( midwifery scope of practice as defined by trial how crazy is that?) but the judge also believed the poor description of footling breech a testimony given by the doctor hired to give testimony for the state- he said that any time you can feel a foot it is footling- which of course could and does include complete breech as well because the baby's bottom and feet are together at the cervix -- I wonder what other inaccuracies this doc is guilty of? this also illustrates just how much work you have to do if you ever go to court- the general public, even educated people like judges do not have much of an understanding of key and important details--- if she weren't so in debit and emotionally battered by this experience I would like to see her appeal this judgment because this doctor and the state of Washington should not get away which such inaccuracies....and the state was actually looking for a general statement by the judge that would not allow any breech births--- they said as much in their final statements.

Quote:
In Oregon, licensed midwives may bill for births with low-income families that receive state medical benefits. A huge benefit for alot of people.