[Electra375]

My ds2 has Celiac Disease and appears that he might also have low levels of IgA. I won't go into the hefty details of all that, but here is a bit of news that is vaccine forum worthy...<br><br>
IgA deficiencies are common in people of White European ethnic backgrounds. And in general about 1 in 600. And IgA deficiency means your body is void of that antibody immune response group, the most common and the one vaccines are formed to work with.<br><br>
It is no wonder then that there are so many that vaccines simply do not work for, they are not 100% effective and it just isn't in the design of the vaccine -- it's in the design of our human population.<br><br>
However, there is always something to take logic and say logic is unfounded.<br><a href="http://www.primaryimmune.org/pubs/clinic_focus/cf_oct98.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.primaryimmune.org/pubs/cl...s/cf_oct98.pdf</a><br>
"Although this would imply that immunization of patients unable to<br>
mount an antibody response would have no benefit, this<br>
assumption has never been verified."<br><br><a href="http://pediatrics.about.com/od/primaryimmunodeficiency/a/iga_deficiency.htm" target="_blank">http://pediatrics.about.com/od/prima...deficiency.htm</a><br>
General information about IgA deficiency<br><br>
So I summize that about 1 in 600 people are vaccinated who will never aquire full immunity b/c their immune system is compromised and they do not even know it. I also would take a leap to question how many Autism kids out there are IgA deficient and have been immunized.<br><br>
The IgA deficiency is linked to autoimmune disorders, and vaccines are often the trigger points for that to happen. Hmm... this has been a very interesting evening reading out IgA deficiency and low levels totally separate from my ds2 Celiac Disease. I am ever so thankful with each learning experience that we stopped vaccinating him and were so very selective, I think he has 3 DTaP and 3 IPV and that is it. My dd is vax free.<br><br>
I'm also thankful that will all this blood work done showing my ds2 should be sick as a dog that he has had very few illnesses in his life and no antibotics ever! All contrary to IgA deficiency, his levels are very low.

 

[mamakay]

What happens, I wonder, when you inject someone with low IgA with live, attenuated viruses?<br>
If they don't develop antibodies, what happens to the viruses?

 

[Gitti]

<a href="http://poisonevercure.150m.com/antibody_theory.htm" target="_blank">Here is a different theory</a> on antibodies and immunity.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">the results were vaccine induced antibody levels, 80 percent of the recruits were later exposed and contracted the disease.</td>
</tr></table></div>

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">It became well known that children who naturally acquired measles, had no capacity to produce antibody. However, they developed life time immunity to the disease.<br><br>
This makes the strong implication that there immunological mechanisms that function effectively without producing antibody. The type of research that lead to this broad perspective on immunological mechanisms was also included in a British study on diphtheria.<br><br>
The conclusion was that antibody levels had nothing to do with the disease. Researchers found low resistance with individuals that showed high antibody levels and high resistance with individuals showing low antibody levels.</td>
</tr></table></div>

 

[Gitti]

<a href="http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/articles.html#immunity" target="_blank"><b>Immunity - a Medical Myth?</b></a><br><br>
And <a href="http://www.minnesotanaturalhealth.org/vaccines/immunesys.htm" target="_blank"><b>this one</b></a> deals with the <b>Th1</b> and <b>Th2</b> response.

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">It became well known that children who naturally acquired measles, had no capacity to produce antibody. However, they developed life time immunity to the disease.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Where can find that outside of that one site?<br>
Coz frankly, I don't believe it. But I'm willing to reconsider if it can be verified. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Gitti</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><a href="http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/articles.html#immunity" target="_blank"><b>Immunity - a Medical Myth?</b></a><br><br>
And <a href="http://www.minnesotanaturalhealth.org/vaccines/immunesys.htm" target="_blank"><b>this one</b></a> deals with the <b>Th1</b> and <b>Th2</b> response.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
I understand where you're going with that and I think I agree, to some extent.<br>
Yeah...you need cell mediated immunity to "nip it in the bud" when you're exposed to a pathogen, and no doubt fully immunized people can carry around mild infections for those things they've been vaxed for.<br>
But that still doesn't mean that antibodies don't do <i>anything</i>.<br>
It just means natural infection works best.

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Electra, you have the wrong end of the stick. None of your surmises are correct.<br><br>
IgA deficiency is the deficiency I have.<br><br>
IgA deficiency people usually made quite adequate antibodies to vaccines, since most vaccines make antibodies in the IgM first, then IgG.<br><br>
Vaccines, being injected, aren't involved in the IgA loop.<br><br>
IgA deficiency is primarily relevant to airborne infections or food infections, so anyone with IgA deficiency is susceptible to lung infections and food/water infections. Therefore probiotics are crucial, as are all the other ways I look after myself.<br><br>
Mamakay said
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">It became well known that children who naturally acquired measles, had no capacity to produce antibody. However, they developed life time immunity to the disease.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Where can find that outside of that one site?<br>
Coz frankly, I don't believe it. But I'm willing to reconsider if it can be verified.</td>
</tr></table></div>
It's in every immunology text book there is.<br><br>
Even in polio people who don't make antibodies, the rate of paralytic polio is only 6 per 100.<br><br>
The cellular immune system is very efficient even in children who cannot make any antibodies.<br><br>
That comment is in many many textbooks.

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">It's in every immunology text book there is.</td>
</tr></table></div>
That kids with measles never develop measles antibodies?<br>
Show me.

 

[Electra375]

Thanks for the clarification MT. I only came across 1 article that referenced vaccines and it made the IgA/ Vaccine connection. I hadn't looked to see if vaccines invovled the IgG or IgM or IgE. I did find that if a person is deficient in 2 areas that vaccines are less effective, in theory.<br><br>
Hmm... I was hoping I was on to something. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
I did find a reference about IgA deficiency that I'd like to clarify with you MT -- it stated that Low IgA levels or a complete defiency inhibit the absorbtion of oral medications. The example was the use of antibiotics.<br><br>
My ds2 IgA no. is low compared to the offical Lab's acceptable range. I've been searching for information on the ranges that are acceptable by age and what constitutes a deficiency. -- Very little success.<br><br>
And his IgA numbers dropped 12 points in 60 days. Of course this was 2 different labs conducting the test and two different range assessments. Any links or help in that area would be so greatly appreciated. So, I'm not banking on that bein correct.

 

[Electra375]

If a person is IgA deficient or has a low level of total serum IgA, how does that effect blood allergy test which look for IgA responses? -- editing, I goofed here, I'm all confused, I think allergy is IgE and intolerance IgG -- so IgA has nothing to do with it.<br><br>
My ds2 allergy test came back negative, yet I've seen true allergic reactions in him, such as hives after playing with rye bread at church.

 

[Plummeting]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">That kids with measles never develop measles antibodies?<br>
Show me.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
I think she means only certain kids with an immune deficiency. People with a certain immune problem don't produce antibodies, but they still develop some sort of long term immunity, from what I understand.

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">It's in every immunology text book there is.<br>
That kids with measles never develop measles antibodies?</td>
</tr></table></div>
</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Mamakay, lets go back to square one:<br><br>
Kids with agammaglobulinemia, <b>who cannot develop antibodies at all</b>, who get measles and who survive measles <b>do not develop antibodies at all</b> because they cannot.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Show me.</td>
</tr></table></div>
When I can figure out a way to put my arm through your screen, then I will. in the meantime, I suggest you do some mouse searching on immunology websites or go to the medical library and ask the librarian to show you where the textbooks are on children with immunodeficiencies and what they do know about their immune responses.

 

[amnesiac]

Sure, kids with agammaglobulinemia aren't going to produce them but Gitti's quote wasn't talking about kids with agam... Her quote simply states: "Need further proof vaccines don't work? It became well known that children who naturally acquired measles, had no capacity to produce antibody." As though children with natural measles fail to produce antibody as a general rule.

 

[Gitti]

Amnesiac, when you quote me, would you please take it from my response and click on "quote" so I can see exactly where you are getting it.

 

[amnesiac]

Just go back & read your post.<br><a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=4236677&postcount=3" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions...77&postcount=3</a>

 

[Gitti]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>amnesiac</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Sure, kids with agammaglobulinemia aren't going to produce them but Gitti's quote wasn't talking about kids with agam... Her quote simply states: "Need further proof vaccines don't work? It became well known that children who naturally acquired measles, had no capacity to produce antibody." As though children with natural measles fail to produce antibody as a general rule.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Would you please directly quote me and post it. I must be stupid, but I can't seem to ever remember writing that. I may not disagree, I just can't seem to see where <b>*I*</b> wrote that.

 

[amnesiac]

<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"> Are you kidding me?? It's right there in the quote you posted (which is why I said "Gitti's quote"). If I could somehow reach through the computer screen with my yellow highlighter I would.<br><br>
Are you just trying to say it doesn't count because you were quoting someone else as opposed to composing that sentence yourself??

 

[Gitti]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>amnesiac</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><br>
Are you just trying to say it doesn't count because you were quoting someone else as opposed to composing that sentence yourself??</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
No, not at all. I was way down in the article and just couldn't see it to save my life.<br><br>
Anyway, it's a very interesting link I posted. I am re-reading it.

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Electra375</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I did find a reference about IgA deficiency that I'd like to clarify with you MT -- it stated that Low IgA levels or a complete defiency inhibit the absorbtion of oral medications. The example was the use of antibiotics.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
It's a hard one, because some people with IgA deficiency, like me, have vastly excess IgM.<br><br>
Definitely, I think there is an issue with antibiotics since I'm seriously allergic to all major antibiotics.
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">My ds2 IgA no. is low compared to the offical Lab's acceptable range. I've been searching for information on the ranges that are acceptable by age and what constitutes a deficiency. -- Very little success.</td>
</tr></table></div>
I'm not sure they really know. My levels are constantly below the lowest normal acceptable number. In this country I think that's something like 1 - 5. Mine are always 0.5<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">nd his IgA numbers dropped 12 points in 60 days. Of course this was 2 different labs conducting the test and two different range assessments. Any links or help in that area would be so greatly appreciated. So, I'm not banking on that bein correct.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Yup, never do two different labs.<br><br>
I can't give you links, becuase you're in a different country to me <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
His levels will also drop depending on what his body is dealing with as well. So there are variables in testing for IgA.<br><br>
I know to only test mine when I'm "well"....

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Gitti, I can see what he is getting at in one sense. I think he is saying that if some people manage to get over, and have a normal experience with a disease yet still don't make antibodies, that means that the 85% rate that you hear on the audio accompanying it, makes a monkey of the concept that only antibodies guarantee immunity.<br><br>
But that's not true in another sense, because IgA isn't related to vaccines. It's the IgG that is tested for vaccine, so that's a different immunodeficiency.<br><br>
There is another side to that too, in that though I've had Hepatitis B twice, I only had detectable antibodies for 13 years. I now have none, but I don't worry that I might get it again.<br><br>
So also, when the health department says that undetectable levels of antibodies means that you are now "vulnerable" to the disease again, that that isn't necessarily correct, because it ignores anamnestic response.<br><br>
However, in the context of Electra's first post, the links you posted aren't relevant, because IgA deficiency is a specific syndrome which doesn't 'relate' to the immunity you are talking about in that way.<br><br>
What he is saying isn't a different theory on it at all.<br><br>
The second link you put up, in the context of this discussion, is more related to the fact that immunodeficient children have to rely on the Th1 branch, or cellular immunity. Yes, I believe that vaccines enhance the Th2 (antibody arm or humoral system) to the detriment of the Th1 (cellular or inate).<br><br>
But of relevant to Electra is that Secretory IgA in the mucous membranes are sort of part of a bridge between Th1 and Th2, in that IgA is an antibody that is activated by Th1 without reference to the Th2 system, so it doesn't really fit into the Th2 orbit as a principle....<br><br>
If you don't have IgA you are somewhat at a disadvantage in the Th1 department...; not that its a huge problem. You just have to work out how to manage it, and once you have, its not that hard. They key is to give the macrophages etc, the petrol they need to work more efficiently and for me, that is achieve by and large with minerals and vitamin C