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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I need to vent...and my PC is back online so i can.<br><br>
A bit of background...My Dad is a Registered Nurse and has been for about 34 years now. He isn't in a nursing job right now, due to health reasons, but he does do volunteer work with his Amish friends around here. He will offer advice, or drive them to Urgent Care/Appointments/et cetera.<br><br>
Last night, as we were finishing up supper, my mother expressed her concern that he was over doing it again. His response was thet he was helping to take care of a very sick baby.<br><br>
His words "Little baby had a botched circumcision, had to be circumcised again, and now he has to have surgery and be put under." and he was shaking his head.<br><br>
I let out an audible gasp, started to tear up and said, "This is another reason why i am glad that i didn't have Zachary cut. OMG you know that the American Pediatrics..uh..whatever doesn't reccomend it anymore!" (i was upset and had a brainfart there)<br><br>
He says in a rather snarky/mad way, "Well they (the Amish family) have had 8 other boys and had no problems before, it is just one of those things that happen and you go on. it is the right thing to do."<br><br>
I almost lost my supper right there, and got up from the table and left. Bah, I loathe/hate confrontations. Now, not only to i have thoughts of this poor baby boy who has to have more surgery done to fix something that was unnecessary to begin with, but know that 8 other boys are circed, and my father is FOR circ. Makes me want to permanently put a nut cup on my son to protect him when i can't be there physically to protect him.<br><br>
Now i really can't wait until my stickers for my van get here so i can put them on. I am working on some pamphlets to hand out (I need more ink and some other things before i can print them)..I think that i will leave some of this vital information in Dad's books and his van.<br><br>
thanks for listening to my rant.... I think that i will go and read some of the happier threads here.<br><br>
Karin<br><br>
ETA: I wrote that the family was Amish to put in perspective of their cultural ways, rather than the relgious ways. As a culture, they do not have vehicles, like cars or vans, to transport them. So they hire, or befriend people to drive them places, such as my father.
 

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Sorry. It's hard when people we care about are completely clueless, isn't it.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Devaskyla</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Sorry. It's hard when people we care about are completely clueless, isn't it.</div>
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I was under the impression the Amish didn't circumcise being so in-tuned with their Dutch/Ger|man roots... despite their deep religious beliefs (and the myth that it "HAS" to be done because it's in the bible and blah, blah).<br><br>
I'm not sure if the Mennonite here in Canada circumcise or not (?), but I assume they leave their boys intact. I work at a well known, popular thrift store chain and they come in all the time with their children to shop.<br><br>
It's very unnerving for you and you to have a dad with this outdated view on something that has been SO CLEARLY accepted to be the other way. I wouldn't at all blame you for being ultra-cautious/paranoid to leave your son around him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks!<br><br>
just a reminder just to be careful to not make this a religious discussion. The last one got U-G-L-Y<br><br>
Also, to let you know that i live in an area that has very high circ rates and that the University Hospital near here has put out papers on the "correct useage of the gomco clamp" :puke It is very likely where these boys were born.<br><br>
Still the whole thing still has me nauseous :puke
 

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That's a great example of the sickness of the cultural brainwashing when it comes to circ; the others went ok, so this child can be written off. I wonder if this child will think it was the "right" thing for him when he grows up?? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>wendy1221</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I'm from PA. The Amish there and here in IN have homebirths. I highly doubt they circ.</div>
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Well, now I want to know!<br><br>
Not too long ago, I was reading an pediatricians' message board on circumcision, and though most posters said they didn't do them (since they happen at the hospital's maternity unit) one did say that the majority of circs he did were for Mennonites who had a homebirth.<br><br>
I realize the Amish and Mennonites are two separate groups, but I had always assumed neither group did. It was a bit of a shock to read that post. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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Don't feel too badly. My MIL was a nurse and she circed her son. And when I mentioned how the rate is going down here in CA, her response was "oh, probably because of immigration" gggrrrr...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">: I guess the fact that neither of her grandsons is circed registered.....
 

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My dd was born with a midwife in a free standing birth center. The midwife I used served a large Mennonite population. She did circs for them. She was against RIC but felt better doing it with anesthetic in a "loving" way than having them go to a hospital. She said that they followed the Biblical teachings on it.<br><br>
I am conveying info from a conversation I had with my midwife. I am not opening this up to the why's of Mennonite circ. Religious discussion is not allowed in this forum, so please, let's not debate.
 

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My mom's an RN of 29 years and she is also procirc... She apparently is because of her time in the nursing home. I told her that ALL elderly people, men AND women have all sorts of skin folds and crevices that need cleaning. Elderly women especially.<br><br>
We got into a super heated discussion and I just had to walk away because she wouldn't even consider reading "What your doctor doesn't tell you about..." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"><br><br>
She also provax... We butt heads in a number of areas but we still have a super relationship provided we don't discuss certain topics <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent"><br><br>
She's never had another partner other than my father who is of course circ'd. She went on to tell me during one of our arguments that she'd never have sex with a man that wasn't circ'd. I'm like 'what'... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mischievous.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="mischief"> She just doesn't know what she's missing... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="blush"> I was telling her how I'd like my dh to restore... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent">
 

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Could you all ask your procirc nurse relatives their theory why rest of the world is doing ok with intact penises - even in - GASP -nursing homes!!!! I'd be really interested in hearing they theories.
 

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The problem is, these American elderly men grew up in a time and place where hygiene wasn't stressed the way it is now. When I was a little girl growing up in Hicksville, IA, it was common for people to take baths only once a week. Many people in the 40's, 50's, and even 60's didn't even have indoor plumbing! These men probably never had good hygiene to begin with. When they were younger, it wasn't a problem, but now that they're older and under someone else's care, it has been deemed by the powers that be to be a problem.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>kxsiven</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Could you all ask your procirc nurse relatives their theory why rest of the world is doing ok with intact penises - even in - GASP -nursing homes!!!! I'd be really interested in hearing they theories.</div>
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Heck if I was going to ask that I might as well ask my MIL, if your husband wasn't broke, why did you fix your son??? But alas, that discussion causes arguments. It's the same thing with all mothers, it is very difficult to admit that you made a mistake with your child.... Especially when you were the one who made the decision. And when we asked my FIL, he responded that he thought it was very stupid but he didn't want his son to be made fun of in the locker room... Well, my dh responded, we didn't go around naked in our locker room. Times change and thankfully my dh was very willing to leave his son alone....
 

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My mom has been a nurse for 30 years. When my first DS was born, she was adamant that he HAD to be circ'd. I never thought to argue with my mom, although the fact that Medicaid didn't pay for it and my mom had to should have been my first clue that it wasn't medically necessary.<br>
For my second DS, I had joined MDC and started reading in the Case Against Circumcision forum (though I think it had a different name then) and came to the conclusion that it was not only unnecessary but harmful and when my kids and I moved back in with my mom and dad she saw first hand how his intactness did not, in fact, cause him to have massive infections, nor did I have to make a major effort to keep it clean.<br>
For my third DS who was born in her home, she didn't even bring up circ.<br>
I think in nursing school they really teach the nurses that this barbaric routine is necessary to keep the doctors from having trouble getting a nurse to assist them.<br>
Thankfully, my mom works only with adults and does not have to deal with it at all.
 

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One of our most powerful intactivists here in Vancouver, BC is a woman named Jaqueline Maire. She is a R.N. from France originally. She always thought circ was insane and spoke out about it when she could in hosp. What turned her into an intactivist was that her grandson was circumcised with no input from her. She was shocked and horrified and has been working hard to really end it ever since.<br><br>
I think one of the most important things with medical types is to give them a copy of the article by Dr. John Taylor. Taylor is a pathologist who was concerned that his future grandsons might be circumcised (his daughter was married to a physician). He decided to do studies of the physiology of the foreskin in order to advocate for his unborn grandsons. His leading edge work that has been published in peer reviewed journals is changing the thinking of many physicians and nurses. Read it at<br><a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/taylor/</a><br><br>
Baybee
 

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Here's some candid nurses comments on circ by nurses on the front lines. Note the training to be "nice".<br>
Baybee<br><br>
I have seen many circ revisions: there is a condition caller TUNNELING where<br>
the shaft skin grows to the edge of the glans... many times I have seen<br>
partially or fully denuded shafts. Two weeks ago we had to transfer a baby to<br>
another hospital for excessive bleeding- they replaced 100cc of blood. In a<br>
neonate that is considerable!<br>
It is an unnecessary risk in my opinion, to assuage cultural norms. The USA<br>
is the only country clinging to this practice any way. When it became a self-<br>
pay issue in Canada, the rate plummeted.<br>
And on a lighter note. they ALL look the same when they are HAPPY!<br>
RNc<br>
Texas<br>
__________________________________________________ ______________<br>
In a message dated 3/27/99 2:03:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,<br>
b writes:<br><br>
<< I am so glad that it's now deemed an unnecessary surgery, it's genital<br>
mutilation as far as I am concerned, and that is just my opinion.<br>
>><br><br>
I agree Marna, AND have seen many "botched" circ's especially by residents.<br>
We even had to have a urologist come one time and suture a penis. Also had an<br>
inexpeinced resident place "surgicell" (a guaze placed to promote hemostasis),<br>
and the tip of the penis became necrotic. It just isnt worth the risk if you<br>
ask me. I do tell my friends who insist on having them done to write on their<br>
consent form, no residents to perform or assist with procedure.<br>
And that my $0.02<br>
J<br>
__________________________________________________ ___________________________<br>
Yes, it's called botched circ's which happen more than anyone wants to<br>
admit, and babies have hemorrhaged, gotten infections etc....<br><br>
I am so glad that it's now deemed an unnecessary surgery, it's genital<br>
mutilation as far as I am concerned, and that is just my opinion.<br><br>
M<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
Re: circumcision<br><br><br>
> From: ><br>
> I have heard of medical problems that arise when a male has not been<br>
> circumcised. Has anyone heard of any medical problems in males who have<br>
been<br>
> circumcised? I have not. (just curious) My son, nine was<br>
circumcised<br>
> after delivery and I would do the same again. I would request pain med,<br>
which<br>
> was not offered for my son.<br><br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Can I play devil's advocate---<br>
You people are talking like circumcision is an eventual given.... I feel, and<br>
Rosemary Romberge states in her book, that the way Peds tell the mom to<br>
retract and clean under the foreskin , is the CAUSE of problems-- not a<br>
preventative at all. It causes adhesions, trapping debris, leading to these<br>
phymosis/smegma accumulation probs. We NEVER retract the clitoral hood for<br>
little girls, do we- it is the corresponding structure in females.<br>
God put this on us for a reason. It is a protective membrane. And the<br>
argument that circumcision PREVENTS UTIs in boys is ludicrous. Girls have FAR<br>
more UTIs but we aren't circing them.<br>
Another reason I hear is that it is an edict from God: Only if you are a Jew.<br>
If you are a gentile, Jesus is OUR blood covenant, not the shedding of a drop<br>
of blood , as in the Old Testement. And Beside, their method (in Biblical<br>
times) involved drawing the foreskin up, and shaving a milimeter of flesh off,<br>
drawing a few drops of blood. Essentially leaving a fully functioning<br>
foreskin. American Circumcision is far more radical and was instituted in the<br>
Victorian era as a deterant to MASTURBATION! Now, has it detered this at all?<br>
I think not!<br>
This little 1X1 inch piece of flesh is packed with nerve tissue... it plays<br>
an integral part in sexual response. Just ask any man circumsized as an adult.<br>
When the glans is exposed, it recieves friction, thus transforming it into<br>
keritinized skin, about as sensitive as the outside of our lips-- run your<br>
finger over your lower lip- then run it over the INSIDE of the lip- you can<br>
feel the ridges of your fingerprints this way. The reduction in sensitivity is<br>
comparable.<br>
It is NOT an inevitibility.. so why not give these innocent boys a chance to<br>
have a normal sex life and a healthy GU system and inform their parents on the<br>
TRUE reasons for this all too often abused practice.<br>
In the search for truth,<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Now as a group I feel this is all getting out of hand. In respect to all of<br>
the group's members do we need to bring Jesus into this?<br>
We are all adults and have our own personal opinion on circumcision, as well<br>
as being professionals.<br>
As nurse's all we can do is truthfully inform our pt's and let them go from<br>
there. Pt's make their decisions for many different reasons and as mother's<br>
and father's we are able to make our own decisions.<br>
My girlfriend has been married twice. First to a man uncircumcised, her<br>
present husband is circumcised and she prefers for the later. (smile!) So,<br>
it is all up to the individual, no matter what the reason may be. L<br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
You know my father was born in Germany and they didn't circumcise back then<br>
normally, and when he came to America, and grew up here, and joined the<br>
Army, they circ'd him there. It freaked him out so bad to be circ'd as an<br>
adult, they chose to circ my brother, in case he went into the Army as an<br>
adult to save him the pain as an adult.<br><br>
I am SO glad they don't do that anymore.<br><br>
M<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
...as for the circs.....it is very uncommon for<br>
parents not...to want their infant boy circumcised.....every once in a while<br>
we'll have a couple who refuses it...but its a rarety and just very recently<br>
have any of the Peds started using any type of anesthesia.....and quess what<br>
....the only Ped that uses it is a female....we really tease the others about<br>
it.....<br>
(small rural hosp in the south)<br>
__________________________________________________ __________________________<br>
Since I seem to be in my "willing to take on controversial subjects" mode, I<br>
thought I would add my personal opinion to the slightly past topic of circs.<br>
I already posted what the common practices were at my hospital, and the<br>
demographics. I know I said that the OB's, Peds, and nurses did not<br>
attempt to influence the parents opinions at all. That the parents were<br>
clearly informed that circs were not medically indicated nor recommended by<br>
the AAP, etc. What I left out was that all of the Peds, OB's and nurses on<br>
my unit have circ'd their babies, with the exception of one lady OB (my dear<br>
friend, whose sons are well into their teens). I am not from this area, nor<br>
are any Peds or a couple of other nurses and two OB's (one already mentioned<br>
and one other). Further, I do not know of any doctor or nurse that<br>
practices at my hospital that has NOT had their son circ'd. These docs<br>
come from all over the country and a couple from overseas. Most of the<br>
nurses are from this area. Not one pt has ever asked my opinion, nor that<br>
of anyone else that I know of. If asked, I would say that it is not<br>
medically indicated, nor recommended by the AAP. I would not tell them what<br>
I chose. I feel it is my job to support, not influence, a parents decisions<br>
on most matters--although, it IS important to me that they make an informed<br>
decision.<br><br>
I chose for my son to be circ'd 20 years ago. And, that would STILL be my<br>
choice today. Yes, I do assist with circ's when I am in the nsy. And, no,<br>
it is clearly not my favorite job. Certainly my decision would be an<br>
informed one. Nonetheless, it was/would be my choice.<br><br>
I have lived in several places, mostly in the South, Southwest (yeah<br>
Tucson---go University of Arizona, my alma mater!!!), Northeast and even<br>
Panama. We were military. In every place I lived (with the exception of<br>
native Panamanians), circs were the norm. Whether the person was military<br>
or civilian.<br><br>
I hesitated to say this because the clear majority of nurses on this list<br>
seem to be in favor of no circ's. To date, only one other nurse has spoken<br>
up and said she chose a circ for her son, that I can think of. I just<br>
wanted to add my personal feelings to this controversial subject.<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Here, our docs are actually talking folks out of circing their boys. Which<br>
I am damn glad about. I don't think it's a time issue, I think they are<br>
realizing it's truly not medically necessary.<br><br>
At any rate, I think our hospital now does circing at about 40% rate, which<br>
is pretty low, isn't it?<br><br><br>
Re: circumcision (controversial subject)<br><br><br>
>From: ><br>
>In Louisiana where I am, we do about 95% of circs. Mostly without anything<br>
>(block). Some of the docs, mostly the OBs, use Emmla cream one hour prior<br>
to<br>
>the circ. We still have many OBs that do there own circs and our Peds Drs.<br>
>are OK with it. They hate to do them. I don't think it is because it is<br>
>controversial, I think they just plain hate to take the time when they have<br>
4<br>
>other hospitals to make rounds at before their own practices open!<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
I'm glad to hear that as 10 years ago, when I taught a class in Newborn Care,<br>
I was telling the parents that they had a choice. I didn't recommend one<br>
thing or the other, but explained that is this day and age, circs weren't<br>
necessary.<br><br>
Boy did I get yelled at by the Docs, as it was said that I was infringing on<br>
their territory. I decided to quit teaching the class and just go back to<br>
regular labor and deliver. I'm glad that things are at least starting to<br>
change.
 

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My mother is an RN as well, and I went round and round with her on the circ issue when I was pregnant before. She even pulled the "well, your grandfather had to be circumcised when he was 65 and it was incredibly painful" blah blah blah crapola. Yeah, and the fact that my grandfather was a poorly-managed obese insulin-dependent diabetic probably had NOTHING to do with that, mom. I didn't even know about Mothering then, but I knew we weren't circ'ing anyone, boy or girl. She would NOT let up until I got really bent and said "we are NOT DOING THAT TO OUR CHILD" and then refused to discuss it further.<br><br>
Sadly, my brother and SIL had my nephew circ'ed - they live near my mom, where it's done at a much higher rate than here - and my mom actually said to me on the phone, the DAY AFTER he was circ'ed that "oh, it's healing up already so nicely!" I cried when we got off the phone. Poor baby boy!<br><br>
Now that I'm expecting again, I don't doubt that she'll bring it up. Thanks to everyone here, I'm much better prepared to end the discussion oh so very quickly.
 
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