[arthead]

My sis trusts their doctor & have basically made every decision upon his personal/medical beliefs. I just got back from visiting her (she's 30 wks now) & the topic of circumcision came up. How? My mom is getting a Weimeraner(sp?) puppy & had said something about how inhumane it seemed to her that they dock the pup's tails at three days & that if she'd known this, she would have requested their pup's tail be left alone... so, then she compares tail-docking to circ & says that she can't understand WHY people still do it, with all of the knowledge out there. My stepdad chimes in with "well, they used to tell people that it was healthier to circ than to let the baby be intact" so, then I said "yeah, I guess now we're finding out that it isn't really healthier & it leaves the choice to the guy - if he wants to have it done later, he could at least be anesthetised properly & that it also has sexual benefits later in life" So, my mom asks about Jewish religion & that they DON'T do it & why. I tell her that Jewish religion DOES require it most times but that majority of the rest of the world population DOES NOT circ & that about 50% of North Americans don't either. My sis replies "wow, I'm surprised it's so high!" Me, thinking she means that 50% circ is high, but not sure, asks "What, that 50% circ rate is high... I KNOW!, crazy isn't it??" Then, she tells me "NO! I think that 50% NON-circ is very high considering that health stats" omg... avoiding a huge arguement, I then keep my mouth shut for her response...

blah... My sis then says "Well, WE plan on doing it. As far as we've been told by our doctor it IS healthier & just SOOOO much easier to 'deal with'. "

I was so wishing at that moment that I'd paid more attention to the great facts you all talk about here... ugh. Do you think she may reflect on that conversation at all? I mean, we were all never thinking that she would choose circ, so we said some harsh things to a circ-ing mom, in retrospect. I love & respect my sis... but she also said quite clearly that "if this baby goes beyond 40 weeks to the day, he's coming out one way or another"... meaning induction or cesarian.

It's not my situation & I probably won't try to persuade her b'c respect her choices as she respects mine... but I am fact hunting I guess, for future ref's.

 

[Tinijocaro]

Ask her if it concerns her at all that the advice her doc gave her goes against the advice of every major medical organization in the world. Can you let her know that he is going off of old information that has since been disproven?

Maybe you could also ask her exactly how it is easier to "deal with", considering you must work, at every diaper change, to prevent adhesions. Whereas, with an intact penis, you do nothing, just wash the outside. She is probably going off of old information that you must retract the foreskin and clean underneath. Sounds like her information is outdated.

I know how it is to not want to debate with family. What if you approached her and said "Would you give me the chance to show you that it is actually the circ'd penis that requires more care than the intact one? That there is nothing to deal with for an intact penis." Or, you could say "You might want to look online, see if you can find information on the care of a circ'd penis vs an intact penis"

It's so darn frustrating. I have three friends that are pregnant. Two are not circ'ing (one circ'd her first, not her second, and now, not her third-yay!!). The third, it's her first baby, a boy of course, and I'm fairly sure, based on her silence on the subject, that she will circ. It kills me. This is going to sound so horrible to verbalize, but I hope she is there for the circ and realizes her mistake at the moment of the circ.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead It's not my situation & I probably won't try to persuade her b'c respect her choices as she respects mine... but I am fact hunting I guess, for future ref's.

Would you have that same respect for her if she were having a daughter and was planning to to this?

http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

Frank

 

[arthead]

Jackie, yeah, you verbalized my feelings exactlty.

I need to leave their decisions to them, she's the mum & I need to respect that... but at the same time, she's a brilliant woman, but she only listens to her doc!!! HOW??? I get SOOO lost within her reasonings. She's a booksmart woman, who goes by the book no matter what, so she respects that her by-the-book doctor - has THE best info for her, & she can relax on a topic. Oddly enough, it seems that people will trust our medical community over researching it for themselves.

Sadly, like you, I hope that they see the tiny bloody penis afterward, hear the cries, possible infection & feel so badly about their choice that a second won't happen, if they produce a second son.

Maybe call me disgustingly weak, but how can you run over someone else's choices?

 

[arthead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking Would you have that same respect for her if she were having a daughter and was planning to to this? http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html Frank

Frank - yeah, I would leave that personal decision up to the mum...

On a personal note, I will continue to fight within Amnesty Int to retrtieve rights for women globally & also fight against circ amoung women & men globally b'c it isn't right.

I know it seems weird that I wouldn't fight more for my nephew, but these people are soo set in their ways & are intelligent & they KNOW it & I honestly feel that if I were to bring this up more, that the only thing it would do would be to distance me from my nephew. THEY are the parents, who gain pride from making every "most-intelligent decision" - as far as their eyes can see.

Is that selfish? & what would you do?

 

[LavenderMae]

Would she read a book about circ written by a doctor? Dr. Fliess for one I know there are others I can't remember right now. You could give it would last shot and buy her one of the doc books!
She may very well be intelligent but her reasons for circing are based on ignorance and well it piss me off a doctor gave her the misinformation.
It is so obvious that leaving your son intact is the intelligent decision, well unless you have been brainwashed by society to believe other wise.
Needless to say I would give it one last shot before I just dropped it and tried to let it go.

 

[Acksiom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead Do you think she may reflect on that conversation at all?

If past experience with other parents is any guide, NO. Not to mention how you describe their map of the world.

Going by those, the odds are very much that if your nephew is to be protected from being sexually violated, and your sister and BIL are to be protected from being complicit in his violation, you're going to have to be the one to make them see the facts. It certainly looks as though nobody else is going to protect any of them. . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead I need to leave their decisions to them, she's the mum & I need to respect that... Frank - yeah, I would leave that personal decision up to the mum...

Uh. . .no matter what?

Um, you do understand that where little girls are concerned, the closest comparison to male prepucectomy is in all likelihood not merely amputating the female prepuce, but amputating the inner labia as well, and then stripping out the inner vaginal skin on top of that. . .right?

All these things in combination are the closest match in consequences to what we see happens to little boys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead On a personal note, I will continue to fight within Amnesty Int to retrtieve rights for women globally & also fight against circ amoung women & men globally b'c it isn't right.

Glad to hear it! AI desperately needs people like you, with real integrity, if they're ever to return to being an organization of principle again, instead of their current ugly behavior of blatantly discriminatory sexist chauvanism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead I know it seems weird that I wouldn't fight more for my nephew, but these people are soo set in their ways & are intelligent & they KNOW it & I honestly feel that if I were to bring this up more, that the only thing it would do would be to distance me from my nephew.

Wow. You really think they would just shut you out like that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead THEY are the parents, who gain pride from making every "most-intelligent decision" - as far as their eyes can see. Is that selfish? & what would you do?

I'm not sure which 'that' you're referring to. Their attitude? Or your putting your concern about their reaction ahead of your nephew's and your sister's and BIL's best interests?

As to what I'd do, I would first find out what they already know, or at least believe.

Do they know exactly what is going to be done to their little boy, and how it's going to happen?

Do they know about the synechia between the foreskin and the glans, and how it gets literally torn apart in the process?

Do they know what -- if any -- anesthesia protocols are going to be used?

Do they know about the complication rates?

Do they know how about having to deal with a bloody penile stump in a fecal diaper which will need to have bandages stuck by clotting to the glans pulled off and then reapplied?

Do they know about having to apply vaseline or whatever on a regular basis in order to prevent adhesions?

Do they know about the potential for interference with bonding and breastfeeding?

Just for starters.

I'd also show them the Intact video of a routine prepucectomy. Have you seen it yourself yet? It's available here:

http://www.intact.ca/vidphil.htm

Another suggestion is to do an end run around their intellectual obstacles and talk to their doctor directly.

In addition to protecting your nephew and your sister and BIL, you could protect a lot more boys and their parents that way, as well.

 

[hummingbear]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinijocaro Ask her if it concerns her at all that the advice her doc gave her goes against the advice of every major medical organization in the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinijocaro The third, it's her first baby, a boy of course, and I'm fairly sure, based on her silence on the subject, that she will circ. It kills me.

Can you gently prod her out of her silence? She may thank you in the end.

 

[Stevie]

I'm always afraid of being "cut out" of the child's life because it happened. I gave all the links I had to a "friend". She said she didn't want to know... I told her that one of the links showed an actual circ and she owed it to her son to at least be fully aware of what she was signing him up for. She said she didn't want to know and that I needed to stop telling her about it. I asked if she was then going to sexually mutilate her daughter or if it was just boys that she hated... I guess I went too far; I am no longer welcome in her life.

I just don't agree that anyone who refuses to do any research; just takes a doc's word for it is intelligent. I circ'd my first son 27 years ago, but I like to think that if someone (anyone) had mentioned the facts I would have at least looked into it. My x-friend is criminally stupid and I feel she should have her children removed for just that reason. grrrrr I don't believe it should be a personal choice unless the mom or dad is deciding whether to circ themselves, not an innocent child who will have to live with the decision made by their callous boy hating parents.

I used to have more friends; now there are just the 2 who didn't circ and the 2 who wished they hadn't...

The nieces who are due this summer don't even get angry, they just laugh at me. I'm printing stuff out to include in a gift for the baby (not the mom) but...

 

[TigerTail]

if someone dumped me as a friend for honestly trying to help them and save their baby from a barbaric, painful, unnecessary mutilation i'd feel sorry for their baby (firstly), but then feel happy that i put a baby's health & happiness before my personal comfort zone & was willing to make the sacrifice (not a big one, if that would be enough to make them stop seeing me.)

suse

btw, great link, frank

 

[Stevie]

Oh I absolutely don't regret losing the friend; what I regret is that the boys' (yes, there is a 2nd one now) male hating, gender mutilating mother is their woman role model. They needed me and now they don't have me.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead Maybe call me disgustingly weak, but how can you run over someone else's choices?

Isn't this exactly what she is going to do to her son? If she is so insistent about rights and choices, would she respond to a plea for her son's rights and choices?

Quote:

THEY are the parents, who gain pride from making every "most-intelligent decision" - as far as their eyes can see.

If this is true, then they would appreciate any information that would kick start their brain, to prompt them to really research the issue. Printed information from the world's respected medical authorities and publications should make them question the information they are getting from a single doctor. If what they are saying is exactly counter to what he is saying, it should prompt them to research to make the most intelligent decision. While they may not want to hear this now, once they have researched and are taking pride in making "the most intelligent decision," they will appreciate you pointing out that there was more than what they saw on the surface.

Quote:

Is that selfish? & what would you do?

You won't stand up for your nephew and will allow debilitating genital surgery on him without a word in protest on the outside chance that they may not be comfortable with what you say? Doesn't that sound a little selfish to you? Will you be able to look at your nephew and not feel guilt if you don't do everyting you can to protect him? Any hard feelings you may engender from speaking up for your nephew will pass quickly. Your sister will eventually understand that you were being an advocate for her son and were only doing the best you could for him. However, the guilt you will feel and the damage from circumcision will last a lifetime.

What would I do? I'm not going to try to tell you how to run your life. It wouldn't do any good. I'll tell you what I did in my life and you can use it as an example if you like. I was engaged to be married to a woman who was soon to be a grandmother to a boy. I tried to talk with her daughter about circumcision and was completely shut out. My finace' was afraid that it would anger her daughter to talk about circumcision so she made the decision to let it go and fight me instead. She quickly realized that she could not counter me on the medical, ethical and legal arguments against circcmcision and came back at me with the scriptures. When that argument was failing, she fell back on "The Bible can be interpreted in many ways." and even set up an appointment with a church counsellor. When that didn't work and she was looking wrong, she set up an appointment with a psychologist. Again, this backfired on her but she was cornered and we had many arguments. She simply refused to admit that any of the information I had was valid and she continued to support her daughter in mutilating her grandson. I ended the engagement and we broke up. Before this, she rarely went to church and since, she seems to be at the church everytime the door opens. Is this because she "found" religion or is it because she is trying to assuage her guilt? I suspect it is the latter. How will you deal with it?

Frank

 

[Sarah]

I think you could tell her that lots of very SMART AND CARING parents make the mistake of circumcising their child... and then regret it every day after... every day they look at his raw exposed red glans when they change his diaper they want to cry...they KNOW that they should not bee seeing this sex part exposed like that- and they know that they are the person responsible for it- tell her that you KNOW that she is a smart and caring person and that you don't want her to feel that way. The fact that her husband is circumcised does not prove that it's a good thing to do... it just proves that smart can caring parents like his own could also fall victim to that same system of medicalized sexual abuse and condoned sexism.

Give her these two links:

http://www.infocirc.org/saskmemo.htm

and

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/mothers.html

love Sarah

 

[sahli29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthead Jackie, yeah, you verbalized my feelings exactlty. Maybe call me disgustingly weak, but how can you run over someone else's choices?

>>>>>

Well they are afterall over riding the rights of that yet to be born boy by planning to change his normal sexuality forever(and for the worse). If you don't stand up for him who will? Best wishes.

 

[arthead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking You won't stand up for your nephew and will allow debilitating genital surgery on him without a word in protest on the outside chance that they may not be comfortable with what you say? Doesn't that sound a little selfish to you? Will you be able to look at your nephew and not feel guilt if you don't do everyting you can to protect him? Any hard feelings you may engender from speaking up for your nephew will pass quickly. Your sister will eventually understand that you were being an advocate for her son and were only doing the best you could for him. However, the guilt you will feel and the damage from circumcision will last a lifetime.

That was a great guilt trip, but after losing pretty much ALL contact with my 6y.o. niece a few months ago - b'c I finally asked her mom (step-sis, our married parents divorced a few years ago, so no legal relation exists now) to stop spanking & screaming in my neice's face all day - I actually am very gunshy about offering too much parenting advice, afterall, I've never given birth... so what do I know, right?? Thats what they say anyway.

Thanks for the rest of your posts

 

[Gidget]

I really have nothing to add to the debate, but how can she think it is easier to care for? She obviously did not do her research. It is a pain in the butt to try to pull up my sons remaining foreskin to clean under as he tries to roll all over the bed and clean it without irritating him too much. I would rather diaper an intact baby anyday.

 

[sahli29]

That was a great guilt trip, but after losing pretty much ALL contact with my 6y.o. niece a few months ago - b'c I finally asked her mom (step-sis, our married parents divorced a few years ago, so no legal relation exists now) to stop spanking & screaming in my neice's face all day >>>>

You could report that(spanking and screaming) to protective services.It is considered abuse in many cases.And a parent who is spanking and screaming at the same time isn't in control.

- I actually am very gunshy about offering too much parenting advice, afterall, I've never given birth... so what do I know, right?? Thats what they say anyway.>>>>

Even though I don't have a penis I bet I know more than most men about normal and mutilated ones. I also know more about vaccines than parents who do vaccinate,and so on.You have taken the time to know more,so if you can find a way share it. Taking care of a cut penis is NOT easy,so the mother did not do research.She is just going by heresay.My son is intact,2,and I have never had a problem.And even if I did have problems amputation of important sexual parts would never be an option. Best wishes!
Sara

 

[momto3boys]

Sorry but I'm not going to give you a "You did your best" speech.

I DO NOT respect people who circ their sons. I did this. I do not and will not ever respect my logic at the time of mutilation.

I also DO NOT respect people who know of the damage circ causes and sits by quietly while the person they love, their blood, gets irrepairably harmed.

It's being an accessory to the crime, in my opinion.

Stand up. Be strong. You know MORE than she does about this. It's time to take a stand. YOUR knowledge could spare your nephew.

Don't come back here after seeing that bloody little stump in a diaper crying that you wished you said more. Don't do that to yourself. Don't do that to us.

You have some time. Use it.

Sorry to seem harsh. But this is a harsh reality. Your nephew is forming just as he was designed to do, right now as we speak. He's done nothing wrong but follow the DNA map he was given. What is so wrong with your sister and her dh that they have given their child a horrible design that needs to be fixed?

Stevie,
I love that "are you going to sexually mutilate your daughter's too or are you just a boy hater?" God that's good! I'll be sure to use that when I'm ready to be out of a relationship with boy hating selfish people! I'm raising sons and I HATE boy haters!

 

[Acksiom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by momto3boys Stevie, I love that "are you going to sexually mutilate your daughter's too or are you just a boy hater?" God that's good! I'll be sure to use that when I'm ready to be out of a relationship with boy hating selfish people! I'm raising sons and I HATE boy haters!

Thank you for saying that. I can't tell you how much it means to me to read it.

I've been a men's issues advocate since college, and I've had more than my fill of how people just casually condone anti-male sexism -- even when it targets boys -- and even worse,

: categorically refuse to acknowledge that it exists at all, let alone how it affects our children.

So again -- thank you. Thank you very, very much.

I wish more parents were like you.

 

[Acksiom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevie Oh I absolutely don't regret losing the friend; what I regret is that the boys' (yes, there is a 2nd one now) male hating, gender mutilating mother is their woman role model. They needed me and now they don't have me.

And thank you too, Stevie, for putting it right out there for everyone to see: male hating, gender mutilating mother.

It takes a lot of courage and integrity to stand up and say things like that. Believe me, I know.

You deserve more than just my gratitude. . .you both have my respect

.