[summerbabe]

This is long...

My son is 3.5 years old and we are looking at starting him in a preschool this fall. He is a very boistrous, active, enthusiastic child. He is currently in a daycare/preschool, has been since age 2. He has done very well there. He was there 3 long days a week (10 hours) and has recently cut to 3 half days a week since I cut my work hours from full-time to just moonlighting here and there. We have 2nd baby on the way in April. My inlaws will be with us from overseas for 5 months, so we are pulling him out when they get here and he will be at home from April through the summer. We are looking at starting him in a new place in the fall because

a) we are interested in Montessori and if we can start him at age 4, he will be guaranteed a spot for kindergarten and beyond and
b) the place we currenly have him at is very expensive.

So...we have looked at 2 Montessori schools and 2 play-based co-ops. Both the co-ops are lovely and I think he/we would be happy at either, but then we still have to figure out what to do a year later for kindergarten.

The first Montessori school we looked at has 3 primary rooms, so it is the larger school. We went to an open house, then I did an observation wherein I stayed most of the morning and visited all 3 classrooms. The experience left me with a lot of misgivings. First of all, it was so QUIET. I know that is part of the Montessori deal, but I wasn't buying that this was a natural thing due to the kids being engaged, it felt more like an enforced thing. It was just too eerily quiet. Most of my uneasiness with the place had to do with an overall vibe--I felt like there was an undercurrent of extreme control. The only concrete examples I can give are a) I saw a teacher's assisitant grab a kid by the wrist and b) while a teacher was talking with me, a boy about 10 feet away from us picked up a toy phone and said "ring ring ring." To my mind, what could be more appropriate? The teacher interrupted our conversation to ask him to "make another choice." I asked her why that was not OK. She said "Because he was purposely trying to be loud." I couldn't help myself, I said "That was loud?" (People, it was not loud). She said "Well, when you know their personalities...." So I'm thinking great, either she really does think that's loud, and it sure isn't by my kid's standards, or she has decided this boy is loud so she's going to be on him even when he's not. That'll be my kid.

Also, to me an important thing about a school is the people running it--like if there was ever an issue, are these people I can talk things over with? I couldn't get a feel for the director at all. She was nice enough, but not what I would call open and approachable.

So, DH and I decided we were leaning toward ruling the place out, but we would go ahead and go through with the admissions process to be sure. Next was the school's observation of DS. It was a half hour visit and there were about 5 other kids there. They had half a dozen "works" set up on the rug and all the kids were directed to that area when they came in. DS went straight for the book area and sat down with a book. I was watching from another area of the room. A teacher went over to him and engaged him a bit about the book, but quickly tried to direct him to the stuff on the rug. He had no interest in that and went to check out the pouring stuff. He was told that was really interesting but those materials aren't available today. He then went to a matching material, and the teacher did stay with him and let him work with that for a couple minutes, but again, it was all about getting him to stop that activity and go over to the rug. He did go there for a few minutes but wasn't interested in the bead thing and got up to walk around saying he's a fireman. I visibly saw this teacher give up. I knew then for sure that he was not performing as expected.

BTW, the other kids were of course nicely doing the works on the rug. This is not our first experience with DS doing something none of the other kids are doing. At Music Together as a young toddler, for the first half of the session, he would head for the door, more interested in exploring the temple it was held in than the class. The teacher was cool with that, so we would come in and out. At outdoor concerts, he is the only kid standing in front of the stage watching the bands set up and break down. Just a couple examples. These things have made me appreciate his individuality. He has no trouble focusing on an activity for long periods of time at home. And as stated, there have been no issues at his current daycare/preschool. I just think that because he is an explorer by nature, he was inticed by this whole room full of new interesting stuff and is used to being allowed to explore his environment at will.

My husband and I had pretty much ruled the school out. Especially after we looked at the other Montessori school and liked it SO much better. Kids very engaged in their work, but just seemed happier, and there was a much more "normal" noise and activity level to our minds. The place just had a much warmer, more relaxed vibe. Also, the director was a very down-to-earth, open person who we felt very comfortable with.

Then, we got the letter from the first school saying our son was not a good match and was not accepted. (Even though we had ruled it out and I was not surprised at all, this bothered me, as we were supposed to reject them, not the other way around...but that is another thread for the personal growth forum

.) I called the director and said that I had gotten the letter and was mainly motivated to call because I had been told that it was rare for a child not to be accepted. I asked if she would mind telling me more about why that decision was made. She said it was because he wasn't able to follow directions and it was difficult to redirect him to another activity. I told her that I had noticed that he wasn't doing what all the other kids were doing, but on the other hand I was confused as to why, if Montessori is about self-directed learning, the whole focus of the observation was making sure the child was easily led to a teacher-directed activity. She said there is freedom, "but they can't choose all day long," they are in a group, they have to be able to listen and follow directions, and especially considering he'd be coming in as a 4-year-old, etc. I told her that there had been no issues in his year and a half at his current school, and that while they don't focus on the quiet environment, the children certainly sit for group time, circle time, etc. and are expected to follow directions and adhere to certain rules. She said their experience has been that when they accept a child they are concerned may not a good fit, everyone ends up unhappy. She did offer, however, to have us bring him for another visit and to talk to his current school. I thanked her for the offer and said I would call her if my husband and I decide to take her up on that. We have no plans to do so.

So now, I will be VERY curious as to what happens at his visit with the second school, the one we were much more comfortable with. My husband and I have had a tour/observation, but DS has not been there yet. His "interview" is in a few weeks.

I guess my only specific question is, is it unusual for a child to be considered ill-matched for one Montessori school and a good match for another? That and any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

[bluebunny]

Quote:

I guess my only specific question is, is it unusual for a child to be considered ill-matched for one Montessori school and a good match for another? That and any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

I can't really answer your question because we only considered one Montessori school, the one that I went to and loved as a child. It sounds like, though, that the two that you are considering have slightly different philosophies. Are they both "true" Montessori schools? Is the first one an AMI or AMS school?

It sounds like the first one was not a good fit so I wouldn't concern myself too much with the fact that they didn't accept your son.

 

[summerbabe]

Both are AMS.

 

[lach]

Honestly, it sounds like you didn't like them for the same reason that they didn't like you. I know that it can be really hard when our kids are "rejected", but it really didn't sound like a good fit. Maybe they're super psychic and they could tell just by looking at him that your family was all wrong, or maybe they're just a bunch of idiots, but at the end of the day they probably came to the right conclusion. It doesn't sound like you or he would be happy there. Actually, it sounds like a kind of creepy place. The Children's House at DD's school is friendly and boisterous and that's one of the things I love about it. I think you dodged a bullet.

 

[spottiew]

I know of 2 Montessori Children's Houses here that are picky about accepting kids in the 2nd and 3rd year and do consider their educational background- but I have never heard of a trial like that... we do have a trial day, but it's the opposite- it's an orientation for the child, not an acceptance test. Of course, we also have not at all that kind of vibe where they are directed to activities... every once in a while I will see that on here, that some Montessori is drastically limiting choices- it's odd to me.

 

[mamadebug]

The implementation of Montessori can vary so greatly. I almost think you need to think of it in broader terms - how likely is it for a child to get into one school when they have not been at accepted at another? - and leave the Montessori part out. How the first school approaches Montessori, and the expectations they have, may be so different from the second school that you can't really even compare the two. It sounds like the things you didn't like about this school are more style issues and not really a part of the philosophy - so it isn't likely that your son's challenges at the observation stem from him having difficulty with Montessori as a teaching style, but more that he wasn't buying into their particular approach to Montessori and children.

It sounds like the match wasn't good either way at the first school. (And, as a trained Montessori teacher and Montessori mom, it sounds way too rigid.) If you feel like the second school is a better match, it probably is and you will have a much better chance that your son gets into a school that will probably suit him better.

 

[MattBronsil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe I guess my only specific question is, is it unusual for a child to be considered ill-matched for one Montessori school and a good match for another? That and any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

It's unusual, barring certain circumstances, that a child is considered a "not good match" for Montessori. The acceptions are if the child doesn't start right away, many schools will make the rule they will not accept anyone OR anyone that doesn't seem normalized already. However, your son sounded very normalized, both based off what you saw AND what the director said.

Just from your perspective and how you describe this, it sounds more like the school only seeks out children that will be ideal for the teacher's personalities...not the child. Unfortunately, that is what many schools do then call themselves Montessori.

I hope you have better luck at the other Montessori school.

 

[sapphire_chan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe So I'm thinking great, either she really does think that's loud, and it sure isn't by my kid's standards, or she has decided this boy is loud so she's going to be on him even when he's not. That'll be my kid.

Please tell me this is the school your kid isn't a good match for. Because it sounds HORRIBLE so it's no big loss if your kid didn't get accepted there.

Okay, just read the rest of your post,

: that the next school is an actual Montessori school and not just a place that can charge more by putting the word Montessori on the door.

 

[summerbabe]

Thanks so much for all the input, everyone. It's nice to know that my son's "performance" doesn't seem out of the ordinary to those experienced with Montessori. This is very reassuring and makes me feel more hopeful about our upcoming appointment at the school we like.

 

[sapphire_chan]

Have you read the sticky at the top of this forum about finding a good Montessori school?

What your ds did is how kids are supposed to do things during the work periods. Having everyone on a rug doing the same thing is weird.

 

[Koloe]

I'm pretty sure my child would not have made it into that school. She would have behaved the same as your son most likely.

 

[BCFD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koloe I'm pretty sure my child would not have made it into that school. She would have behaved the same as your son most likely.

I agree with this. My oldest DD is in a Montessori charter school (kindy) and while she is incredibly sweet, polite, and loving, she has a fierce stubborn streak. There is NO way she would have been accepted into that school either. I think once I would have seen how they operate a classroom, I would have been relieved!

Good luck with the next school and keep us posted!

 

[lach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koloe I'm pretty sure my child would not have made it into that school. She would have behaved the same as your son most likely.

At our observation, they had a bunch of applicants and a few hand-picked current students. They had a little work period, with a few simple works out, and then did a little circle time. She had an actual tantrum when they tried to call her over to the circle, because she liked what she was doing. It wasn't a huge deal, they just let her be and eventually she wandered over to the circle and sat there stony-faced and glum. Every single other child, FWIW, ran right over to the circle when called and was happily learning the new song.

I went home and told my husband we would be saving a lot of money next year. But she still got in. They said that they liked her concentration, and how quickly she picked up the work, and how she put everything away without prompting.

So my point is: it takes a pretty whacked out school to get upset at a three year old who is acting like a three year old.

 

[ADirrim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe We went to an open house, then I did an observation wherein I stayed most of the morning and visited all 3 classrooms. The experience left me with a lot of misgivings. First of all, it was so QUIET. I know that is part of the Montessori deal, but I wasn't buying that this was a natural thing due to the kids being engaged, it felt more like an enforced thing. It was just too eerily quiet. Most of my uneasiness with the place had to do with an overall vibe--I felt like there was an undercurrent of extreme control. The only concrete examples I can give are a) I saw a teacher's assisitant grab a kid by the wrist and b) while a teacher was talking with me, a boy about 10 feet away from us picked up a toy phone and said "ring ring ring."

I had a few thoughts:
1) The only thing you noticed in this Montessori that sounds normal to me is that it was quiet. Montessori's intentionally attempt to create a quiet learning environment that is conducive to concentration, focus, and deep engagement with the materials. To some extent this arises naturally (after sustained engagement with the work, Montessori noticed that a joyful, peaceful, calm demeanor is the natural state of schildren and that work which engages both their hands and their intellect helps to return them to that "natural" or "normalized" state), but in classes that have not normalized there may be an undercurrent of artificiality/control in achieving that. Usually, guides will role model quiet speaking voices and provide reminders to children who are disrupting their companions. That is common for Montessori.
2) Grabbing a child is not normal. Most Montessorians only touch children with their explicit verbal permission ("Would you like a hug," etc), in a situation where safety is an issue, or in an extreme tantrum.
3) A pretend phone would not normally be present in a Montessori environment at all (I would not expect that to be conducive to an environment of productive work).

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe I asked if she would mind telling me more about why that decision was made. She said it was because he wasn't able to follow directions and it was difficult to redirect him to another activity. I told her that I had noticed that he wasn't doing what all the other kids were doing, but on the other hand I was confused as to why, if Montessori is about self-directed learning, the whole focus of the observation was making sure the child was easily led to a teacher-directed activity.

This is a bit of a misunderstanding of Montessori, I think. Although Montessori believes that children learn naturally (learning is a spontaneous process, not something directed by an adult) and that their natural tendency is toward self-perfection, she also believed that children accomplish this through meaningful work. The role of the adult in a Montessori classroom is to engage the child in meaningful work through contact with the materials. Most children are naturally very interested in them and driven to repeat them; however, with some children this requires a bit of enticement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe Is it unusual for a child to be considered ill-matched for one Montessori school and a good match for another? That and any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

First of all, assessments like what you describe really aren't that common in Montessori (personally, I have never worked anywhere where they were used as a "test" for the child or the parents). The vast majority of the time when schools ask to meet the child it is to gauge their interests (so that in the event of a tough drop off the guide already has some good ideas of activities the child might enjoy and be re-directed to), to ensure that the parents have accurate and realistic expectations of the program, to establish a rapport with the parents and make sure all of the adult personalities involved can work together in the best interests of the child, to help the child feel more comfortable on their first day, or to meet state licensing requirements (many states require that they meet the child). Usually, it is honestly not a "test" for the child.
To that end, it might be very possible that you would be a better personality fit with a different program.

The only possible exception to what I have just said is with older children. Some schools do have more specific requirements for children who are not entering at the beginning of their cycle. The reason for this is that Montessori believed that children do a lot of their personality formation very early in life (and that mush of this is determined by their environmental influences during this time) and that children in the beginning of the Montessori cycle are in the midst of the most sensitive time for this. She believed that children do not learn to concentrate, focus, or persevere at a task from lectures, punnishments/rewards, or admonishments but from "a long and slow sequence of activities carried out by the child himself between three and six". If children have not had this opportunity, due to too much unnecessary help from adults, insufficient opportunities to work cooperatively with adults,a lack of motives to do meaningful "work", or obstacles to their development (including an excess of imaginative playthings- she writes of children who are "relegated to play at our side, vanquished and subdued, by tiresome playthings--- a fun exercise is substituting the word playthings for television in her writings), "if at that time they have no chance to establish themselves, they will not appear later. Neither sermons nor good examples will be able to revive them." As a result, I have heard of schools who accept children mid-cycle trying to ensure that the child will be coming to them with enough ability to focus and concentrate to really engage the works (a lot of the advanced Montessori lessons, especially in language and math, can be very long- part of the purpose of the child's first year (3 year old year) is to extend their ability to concentrate until they are able to be successful. In cases where older children are struggling, or don't appear to be making "academic" progress in language and math, it is not uncommon to find that the root issue is not a language or math delay, but that the child lacks the concentration span to be successful at it.

I am not saying any of that is the case with your specific child, nor am I saying that children cannot enter Montessori successfuly mid-cycle, I am just thinking that might be their thought process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe I asked if she would mind telling me more about why that decision was made. She said it was because he wasn't able to follow directions and it was difficult to redirect him to another activity. I told her that I had noticed that he wasn't doing what all the other kids were doing, but on the other hand I was confused as to why, if Montessori is about self-directed learning, the whole focus of the observation was making sure the child was easily led to a teacher-directed activity. .

One thing I did want to ask you about though, is from the examples you gave in your post about this and other situations where your child has been in a group situation (music classes, etc) and chosen not to really engage (with others, with the activity, etc)- how do you normally re-direct him? do you try? how does he respond when you try? does he work cooperatively with adults? (that might be valuable information to tell a teacher up front).

Just my thoughts...

 

[summerbabe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADirrim One thing I did want to ask you about though, is from the examples you gave in your post about this and other situations where your child has been in a group situation (music classes, etc) and chosen not to really engage (with others, with the activity, etc)- how do you normally re-direct him? do you try? how does he respond when you try? does he work cooperatively with adults? (that might be valuable information to tell a teacher up front). Just my thoughts...

Thanks for your thoughts. To answer your questions--in the case of the music class, we are going back to when he was 12-18 months. It was just something I thought of as a time he was doing something none of the other kids were doing. It came to mind more as an example of him marching to his own drum and his explorer nature rather than failure to engage. As to whether or how I redirected him, I let him go out of the room and explore for a few minutes, then I would lead him back into the class. In the beginning, he would stay for 2 or 3 songs and want to go out again. Both I and the teacher felt it was best to let him do his thing, and that he would absorb plenty from the class anyway, which he did--he knew and loved all the songs by the middle of the session. I also started bringing him to class a little early to explore. Gradually, the length of time he stayed in the class increased until he stayed the whole time.

The other example was the outdoor concerts. This was from last summer, so he was just about to turn 3. This wasn't a case of not engaging in something else--the concert was the main event. What was unique to him and not the other kids there was his intense interest in what was happening onstage not just during the show, but also before and after. In that situation, I saw no reason to redirect his attention elsewhere.

In terms of engaging with others, he is extroverted and very social with people of all ages. And actually, during this observation, he was interacting and talking with the teachers about the activities he was doing--it was that he went for the things that looked interesting to him and resisted being led to the stuff on the rug.

I had an informal chat with his primary teacher today at his current school about how he's doing. Specific questions I asked were whether he generally requires a lot of redirection (that was a no), whether he is able to follow directions (yes), and whether he focuses and concentrates on both group and individual activities (yes and yes). From their perspective, he's doing great.

We have written off this experience as a mutually recognized bad fit. Also, something I failed to mention before is that everyone I've asked about this school has said they have heard "mixed things," although I wasn't able to get any specifics. Everyone I've talked to who has heard anything about the one we liked has only heard good things, FWIW. I'm looking forward to our appointment at the other school. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks again for all the responses.

 

[Kirsten]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lach Honestly, it sounds like you didn't like them for the same reason that they didn't like you. I know that it can be really hard when our kids are "rejected", but it really didn't sound like a good fit. It doesn't sound like you or he would be happy there. I think you dodged a bullet.

I agree 100%. They run a quiet preschool. Your child is not naturally quiet. You aren't interested in him being forced into being quiet as he plays/learns. So - as you already felt quite strongly - school #1 is not a good fit. They saw it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by summerbabe It's nice to know that my son's "performance" doesn't seem out of the ordinary to those experienced with Montessori.

I think your son's behavior at school #1 isn't out of the ordinary for a four year old boy. I do think some Montessori schools are just like school #1, and therefore wouldn't be a good fit for your family. Sounds like school #2 is different so I'd expect a better fit there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lach So my point is: it takes a pretty whacked out school to get upset at a three year old who is acting like a three year old.

I think if he was going into their first year (as a three year old), they'd - I hope - have lower expectations for young/new students. But he would be going in as a second year/four year old I think. That particular school just isn't a good fit. I wouldn't like it either - the ring-ring-ring thing would have been enough for me to hit the door.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADirrim A pretend phone would not normally be present in a Montessori environment at all (I would not expect that to be conducive to an environment of productive work).

And that alone may be an issue for the OP. It sounds like her son is currently in a play-based program?

It sounds like the point of putting him in Montessori isn't because the OP leans toward that style of learning, but because it would be an in for kindergarten, I assume to avoid public kindergarten? If the current play-based co-op preschool is working, I'd keep him there for pre-K.

 

[summerbabe]

We had our observation (of DS) appointment at the second school, the one DH and I liked. Again, it felt so different from the first one. Kids focused and engaged in their activities but with a happy, LIVELY atmosphere. Anyway, DS did a few activities with a teacher there, and he seemed to "fit in" beautifully. It was a much more laid back , friendly process. They seemed truly interested in my son and excited about sharing their school environment with him...after he did some stuff with the teacher, the teacher called an older boy over to show him the guinea pigs. At the end when we were leaving, the director noticed DS looking through the window of another room when we were walking by and asked him if he'd like to see that room, took him in there, let him explore, etc. Such a completely different experience. I just felt like, OK, these people love and understand children--what a concept!

However, earlier, as soon as DS was with the teacher, the director had sat down with me on the other side of the room and told me he had almost called me to cancel the appointment because after hearing from all returning families and siblings coming aboard, he has NO spots for 4 year olds and my DS will be second on the waiting list. He did say, however that if no spots open up for this year, and if I tell him now that we want him in for kindergarten, he will be first in line.

So this may all work out for the best. DS did get a spot in one of the play-based co-ops we liked, so we'll do that for the coming year. We only really need/want 3 days a week anyway for this year, and the cost savings is significant. Then, if he gets into this Montessori school for kindergarten, which seems likely, that will be great.

Thanks again, everyone, for your input!

 

[sapphire_chan]

that one of the other families gets a fabulous job in another city so a spot opens up for your ds. But I think how things turned out is great!