[hipumpkins]

For some reason I am having the HARDEST time with my 4 1/2 year old.
I cried tonight because her behavior is so out of control, and it gets so frustrating and annoying. My daughter grates on my nerves and I can not see the right way to approach anything.
Things that drive me batty:
She has no manners as far as eating...eats with her fingers (even ice cream) although I've reminded her over and over to use her fork, spoon whatever. She is covered in food after every meal.
If I tell her, "in a minute" she screams, "NO!!! NOW!!!" and will continue to whine. I hear myself thinking she is a spoiled brat in my head.
She grabs pushes and kicks when angry. Tonight she had to come in from catching fireflies b/c it was time for bed and she was angry so she pushed her brother VERY hard right onto the floor. a 2 handed shove.
When I try to calmly talk to her about any wrongdoing she either runs from me or closes her eyes and drops to the floor.
She tries to monopolize any conversation...if DH and I are talking or I am taling to a neighbor it doesn't matter. If she isn't part of the conversation at that very monet she yells, "watch me " or "look..look look" or will just keep interrupting, "mommy..mommy mommy"

I don't want to use punishments but I find myself more and more amking little threats, "Put it away or I"ll throw it away" type tings and tonight I did lose it about the pushing and refused to read her a bedtme story. Natural consequence...nope but I kept thinking I had to do something drastic to get through to her she can not hit.
She seems completely unable to see something from another person's point of view. Or maybe she just wont..I don;t know.
She seems way more out of control than other soon to be 5 year olds.

When we go anywhere in the car it is constant barrage of, "When will we be there" in this whining voice that turns into a tantrum of kicking screaming, "I WANT OUT OF THIS CAR" This can be a short 5 minute ride or a long 2 hour ride. Every car trip ends up a stress test.

I am a believer in Alfie Kohn ideals but I can not get them inot my head...she pushes so many buttons all day long.
I feel spent at the end of a day.

I am looking for ways for ME to work on my problem of reacting too harshly. I sometimes honest to goodness can't focus my eyes with the anger that wells up in me from the things she does..and she does them over and over.
I need some some stay calm and stay focused techniques.

I do talk to her EVERYtime about manners about interrupting. I give her the tools of what TO say. I* explain how another person would feel. We talk about "do unto others.."
I feel like I am screwing this up big time but I don't know in what direction to go.

 

[PumpkinSeeds]

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She seems way more out of control than other soon to be 5 year olds.

It may seem like this to you but since this is your first child, let me reassure you that this is simply not true. I once posted a thread that said, "help I'm the mommy of a 4yo" and many people chimed in saying that 4 yo's were notoriously difficult.

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I am looking for ways for ME to work on my problem of reacting too harshly. I sometimes honest to goodness can't focus my eyes with the anger that wells up in me from the things she does..and she does them over and over. I need some some stay calm and stay focused techniques.

I have been reading this book, Parent Effectiveness Training and it has given me a lot of good ideas that seem really helpful for older children.

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I do talk to her EVERYtime about manners about interrupting.

If she's anything like my son, the minute I open my mouth, my son sometimes goes into shut down and not hear a thing I say. SOmetimes, less is more, especially if you've had "the talk" on more than one occasion.

 

[KyleAnn]

Oh, gosh-I WISH I had some decent advice, unfortunately I don't.

I did want to say that I am really struggling with ds who recently turned 4 in many of the same ways.
I have my days when i just am in tears, and I have my dh telling me that he thinks our ds "is wild" or "hyper more than other kids his age" "listens worse then other kids his age", etc.
THIS really hurts because I begin to feel like maybe I am not doing things "right."

However, after a lot of reading I realized that it wasn't just my ds...and while that doesn't help resolve a meltdown or tantrum, I am able to take a little comfort in it, and I hope you can too.

Hang in there mama...and just do your very best, one day at a time.

 

[hipumpkins]

...and then we have beautiful days like today and I am forced to remember that everyone has bad days. I do struggle with her and some days are so awful and hard and then this morning she woke up first I hear whisper.."Aww Michael is so cute when he is sleeping" to no one in particular and our whole day was great.

I guess some of it is growing pains, too but the off days really suck and make me feel like I am really screwing her up.

 

[lotusdebi]

Could your child have sensory issues?
http://www.sensory-processing-disord...checklist.html

My older child exhibits a lot of the same behaviors, and we recently found out that he has sensory processing disorder. Just a thought.

 

[hipumpkins]

Hmm *goes to check the link* Thanks!

 

[Fuamami]

The eating with her hands thing kind of rang some alarms for me, but you say she also has pretty good days? It's not a sensory integration problem, is it? Does she consistently get enough sleep?

I guess the part about being way more "out of control" than other kids her age might be a key to something that's going on, unless it just seems like that because you can't look at it objectively.

 

[elizawill]

aww mama, i could literally feel your frustration as i read your post. for whatever reason, some children are so incredibly easy going and don't cause any strife for their folks. then other kids (like mine and yours

) are a little more strong willed. i know it's hard....believe me i know....but just take a deep breath. as hard as it is, try to enjoy each moment....even the stinky ones. my dd (who's going to be 6) is a real pill for me sometimes, and i just try to remember that i only have her in my care for a few short years and then she'll be out on her own. i try to choose my battles with her. for example, if your daughter wants to eat ice cream with her hands sometimes....let her. just tell her she can only do it in the kitchen and she must wash up when she's done. she'll probably get sick of it faster than you will. if that's a big deal to you, then pick something else and let her have her way with that. my daughter and i used to really fight about clothes....it seemed like what she wanted to wear was such an argument all of the time for us. one day, i finally said....FINE...i'm not fighting with you!!! wear it!! she still dresses crazy too.....but who really cares if the guy at church or blockbuster looks at us because my daughter doesn't match at all and has on fairy wings and winter boots in july. my dd also LOVES to make concoctions (sp?) with soap and pepper...spices....the works. it makes me completely crazy because i'm a neat freak, and it's SO messy when she does this. but, she really enjoys it so much...mixing things together and making a big mess....so it's not a battle i want to fight, and maybe as an adult she'll have good memories of that. anyway, my only point is, try to choose your battles and when there are things that in the great scheme of things don't really matter.....just let her explore in those crazy ways...and maybe if she sees you trying to meet her half way, likewise, she may try to change to meet you half way too.

 

[mamaduck]

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Originally Posted by hipumpkins She has no manners as far as eating...eats with her fingers (even ice cream) although I've reminded her over and over to use her fork, spoon whatever. She is covered in food after every meal.

My older son has always been like this. He even used to articulate that "it tastes better with my hands." I think it is a sensory issue. I did impose some pressure about social convention and using silverware. It was a long road, but he eventually improved somewhat. He tries now, anyway. But at the same time, I think you need to actively find alternative ways to meet the sensory need. Can you keep large bins (with lids) of cornmeal, rice, sand, beads -- that sort of thing, for her to play in/run her hands in, maybe drive trucks in? Scooping and pouring activities can be incorporated.

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If I tell her, "in a minute" she screams, "NO!!! NOW!!!" and will continue to whine.

Heh. Well, here is my mean side about to rear its ugly head -- but I don't like to be screamed at, and it makes me not want to help. If she were mine, I would say, "You can wait a minute without screaming. I will not be helping you with this at all unless you give me a quiet minute to finish what I am doing."

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She grabs pushes and kicks when angry.

THIS sounds like a very typical 4 year old problem! Its developmental. The ONLY period of hitting/pushing/kicking that I had with my kids was at age 4 -- for BOTH of them. I think they become more aware of their feelings, and they start to experience a sense of unfairness/injustice at a new cognitive level. Its very hard for them to sort it all out. The only solution I can offer is to work very hard with her at using her words instead of her body. Practice, roll play, teach her to solve problems with words.

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When I try to calmly talk to her about any wrongdoing she either runs from me or closes her eyes and drops to the floor.

She's very sensitive. My kids do this too. Heck, on my insides, I do it too when my behavior is challenged! You have to be careful with your choice of words, she is deeply sensitive to critisism.

It helps to depersonalize the behavior as much as you can. I use the word "problem" as much as I can. "There is a problem here." Or "I have a problem here." Use "I" messages or refer to the situation. Never accuse or start with the word "You..."

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She tries to monopolize any conversation...if DH and I are talking or I am taling to a neighbor it doesn't matter. If she isn't part of the conversation at that very monet she yells, "watch me " or "look..look look" or will just keep interrupting, "mommy..mommy mommy"

I am so glad to be past this stage! Yes, its totally normal. Yes it is irritating as HECK. I don't know a solution -- but it will go away eventually.

It helps a little to talk about it BEFORE a visit or outing where other adults will be present. Remind her that you expect to be able to talk to so-and-so for a few minutes. Provide her with an activity to engage in independently. Take a bag of coloring supplies when you go places.

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I did lose it about the pushing and refused to read her a bedtme story. Natural consequence...nope but I kept thinking I had to do something drastic to get through to her she can not hit.

I dunno. Maybe it wasn't ideal, but I can see myself doing the same thing. If one of my kids pushed the other down, I would need some space from that kid for awhile. I don't think I'd WANT to go read her a bedtime story. I would not expect it to change her behavior though.

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She seems completely unable to see something from another person's point of view. Or maybe she just wont..I don;t know.

Well, in terms of cognitive skills, she is very likely unable to take another person's point of view. Developmentally, this a gradually aquired skill. Usually, its not complete until age 7, though there are always exceptions. She is probably able to take another person's POV in terms of physical space -- she understands that when you look in a mirror, you see something different than what she does, kwim? But considering another person's emotional POV is a lot more abstract. It wouldn't surprise me at all if she can't do this yet. Its nothing to worry about -- around age 7 you should see a softening in her -- a shift toward being more empathetic. Maybe sooner.

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She seems way more out of control than other soon to be 5 year olds.

Nah. From what you've written -- she sounds normal to me. Though, you know -- if you have something in your gut telling you that something bigger is wrong -- by all means, pursue that. Look into SID and food allergies, etc...

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When we go anywhere in the car it is constant barrage of, "When will we be there" in this whining voice that turns into a tantrum of kicking screaming, "I WANT OUT OF THIS CAR" This can be a short 5 minute ride or a long 2 hour ride. Every car trip ends up a stress test.

Do you think she might get car sick? My younger son has never been good about riding in the car, and my theory is that it makes him a little bit sick. We talk about not looking out the side windows and closing his eyes for a bit when he feels really bad.

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I am looking for ways for ME to work on my problem of reacting too harshly.

Take good care of yourself. Get enough water, eat good foods, take breaks, find ways to acheive periods of quiet.

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I do talk to her EVERYtime about manners about interrupting. I give her the tools of what TO say. I* explain how another person would feel. We talk about "do unto others.."

This is such a tricky process. I agree that it needs to be addressed consistantly, but you know -- they learn more from what we model than from what we tell them. Sometimes its like talking to a wall -- and sometimes we actuall MODEL rudeness by the very act of correcting them! Its a catch-22.

I would always make sure to speak to her in private so as not to shame her (sounds like you do.)

I would probably drop the whole "do unto others" thing until she is more receptive to that approach. Less talk. More specific direction. As few words as possible.

I would concentrate on not letting rudeness and interupting work for her. Figure out what she gets out of it -- what is reinforcing the behavior -- eliminate that reward. Let her discover on her own that rudeness is ineffective. Or at least, that more polite interactions are more effective.

 

[elizawill]

i forgot to add, try using an "interruption rule". if i'm in the middle of a conversation with someone....my dd or ds will come up and place their hand on mine to let me know they have something to say. then i put my hand on their's, to let them know i am aware they want to share someting. then i tell whoever i'm speaking too, "excuse me for a moment", and i tell my children, "thank you so much for not interrupting me. what do you need?". it works so great for me and my kids, and i forgot to share that with you before.

PS - mamaduck, youe advice was so helpful to me!!!

 

[hipumpkins]

Thank you everyone for your help. Mamaduck your post helped calm me and as always you also gave some great advice that I will implementing...the "I statement" thing is fabulous.
I am also going to try that hand for interuppting...
I looked at the checklist and it does not seem she has sensory "issues" maybe a bit more inot touching and smelling than the average bear but for the most part nothing off the charts.
thanks everyone!

 

[mamaduck]

hipumkins -- it maybe isn't an "issue" in the sense that its abnormal. But I think ALL kids probably have more intense senory needs than adults do. Like anything, directing her impulses into appropriate activities is going to be helpful. "You need to feel food with your hands? Okay -- lets think of an appropirate time/place/food to do that with. But its not now, okay? Not at the table while we are eating!" LOL

 

[CrunchyParent]

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Originally Posted by lotusdebi Could your child have sensory issues? http://www.sensory-processing-disord...checklist.html My older child exhibits a lot of the same behaviors, and we recently found out that he has sensory processing disorder. Just a thought.

That was my first reaction as well. DD is VERY similar to what you decsribe and I have suspected sensory issues for a long time. I'm just trying to find the right professional to bring her to in an effort to help identify and address it all.

 

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Where are you on the concept of using consequences? I know that some here think they are just another name for punishments. I think that natural or logical consequences are a good tool to teach children to look at their actions from someone else's point of view and I use them. But if you don't, then just skip ahead now.

I have a 4 YO DD and a 7 YO DS, so I've beent through this stage once and am in the middle with the second. I agree that much of this sounds normal, but that doesn't mean that you have to just grit your teeth and bare it. They are capable of learning to do things differently and 4 YOs are certainly old enough to be held accountable for their actions.

So the question becomes, what do you do when she screams at you? Or interupts? Does it work for her -- meaning do you do what she wants and/or give her your attention? I would work really hard at saying "I do not like being screamed at. I would be happy to help you when you ask properly.' And then walk away or at least ignore further "requests" until she calms and asks nicely.

A warning though. If she has been using this method to get what she wants, when it doesn't anymore, things will get worse before they get better. My best friend and I call this the coke machine reaction. When the machine doesn't give us what we want, we generally shake the machine, maybe give it a shove or two before we either walk away or try again. Kids do the same with us. In fact, you can hear DH or I mutter "coke machine coke machine coke machine.." when eithe of our children is boiling over with temper because I haven't responded the way they want. Its sort of the code word for "keep cool, it will get better eventually ..."

 

[chicagomom]

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Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds It may seem like this to you but since this is your first child, let me reassure you that this is simply not true. I once posted a thread that said, "help I'm the mommy of a 4yo" and many people chimed in saying that 4 yo's were notoriously difficult.

: We've got one too. But having been through it once, I know it gets better.

 

[PrennaMama]

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Originally Posted by mamaduck hipumkins -- it maybe isn't an "issue" in the sense that its abnormal. But I think ALL kids probably have more intense senory needs than adults do. Like anything, directing her impulses into appropriate activities is going to be helpful. "You need to feel food with your hands? Okay -- lets think of an appropirate time/place/food to do that with. But its not now, okay? Not at the table while we are eating!" LOL

I advised a friend recently on this topic; she has successfully used this approach a few times for the sensory need to play out:
Make some finger food recipes, mild Moroccan, wraps, whatever, and have evenings where u sit on the floor and use your hands, etc... make it a family thing.

My friend has been able to say, now, "We eat with our hands when it's "Finger Food Night", so please respect this meal and the rest of us whom are using our forks and spoons. Do you need smaller pieces?"

 

[hipumpkins]

Awesome..I love this!!

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"We eat with our hands when it's "Finger Food Night", so please respect this meal and the rest of us whom are using our forks and spoons. Do you need smaller pieces?"

 

[PrennaMama]

Yay~! Thanks~! It works great for her 4,5, and other 5 yo. One of whom is just really kinesthetic and tactile... always moving and must touch.

 

[transformed]

My ds was eating ice cream with his hands yesterday (4) and as I started to correct him, I remembered that many cultures actually eat with their hands (ummmm....can you say CURRY? yum) I even eat curry with my hands. Something about experiencing different cultures. It tastes much better when eaten without a fork. (I have SPD....I think)

Could be extremley right brained. Watch out for school! LOL...They'll try to turn her into a robot zombie.

Just a thought. There might not be anything "wrong" with it, it could easily be diagnosed as ADHD and sounds like SPD so if you have it checked out be sure to get multiple opinions.
Jenny

 

[hipumpkins]

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Watch out for school!

Luckily we'll be homeschooling and honestly this one of the reasons. I can defietly see her getting a label in school b/c she is a little different.