[Momtezuma Tuatara]

There are several medical studies that went into countries and tested people who were not vaccinated against tetanus and found that they had anti-tetanus toxin antibodies.<br><br>
For whatever reason, the WHO prefers to consider that these studies don't mean anything.<br><br>
the other thing is that because immunologist know very little about the inate immune system, how it works, or what the complexities of cellular immunity is, they really don't know how to "quantify" immunity.<br><br>
They think antibodies is the b-all and end-all, when it can't possibly be. When agammaglobulinaemics can go through and survive both measles and polio the same as the rest of us, humans have a lot going for them that immunologist's just don't understand.<br><br>
The public doesn't know that immunologist don't know what immunity it, because they <b><i>don't</i></b> say anything much. They think that by keeping quiet, people will assume that they know what they are saying and doing, instead of being minus the key part of the jigsaw puzzle. They flip off this stuff about antibodies, yet betray their ignorance in the Men C studies that I put up yesterday.

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">There are several medical studies that went into countries and tested people who were not vaccinated against tetanus and found that they had anti-tetanus toxin antibodies.</td>
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Is that in pubmed?

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Of course. Since when do I talk outta ma liddle bwown aye?<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1092755" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3980089" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3980089</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6680401" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6680401</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6827147" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6827147</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6114281" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6114281</a>

 

[runes]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtezuma Tuatara</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6830555"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Of course. Since when do I talk outta ma liddle bwown aye?<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1092755" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3980089" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3980089</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6680401" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6680401</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6827147" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6827147</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6114281" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6114281</a></div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br><br><br>
great thread!<br><br>
so if immunologists don't know squat about immunity, then what DO they know about?<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">:

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Talking about rabbit antiserum:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=3301392" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3301392</a><br><br>
Now cross check that with this:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=3611114" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3611114</a><br><br>
which might explain why some vaccinated people get tetanus?

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

But kidspiration, they will say that natural immunity only applies to kids that live in hovels, eat dirt and don't have savlon obsessed parents.<br><br>
Except if that is so, why did they do that huge push through mexico, south America and the phillipines over a decade ago, vaccinating all those women with tetanus vaccine.<br><br>
Why only the women too?<br><br>
That was the "smoke" that wouldn't go away, which was raised by a roman catholic priest in Mexico, who commented on internet that many of the vaccinated women were miscarrying or could no longer conceive. The vaccine was tested by three groups who found that it had hcg in it.<br><br>
Then the women in other countries started to have the same thing happen, and the smoke became fire, and the WHO got involved and the official answer was "What rot. It's just conspiracist theorists abounding yet again."<br><br>
But as the priest, and all the other people said at the time, <b><i>if their focus was on tetanus protection <span style="text-decoration:underline;">for all</span> why were only woman targetted? Dont' men get tetanus too?</i></b><br><br>
The story remain unsatisfactorily unresolved.

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtezuma Tuatara</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6830641"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Talking about rabbit antiserum:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=3301392" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3301392</a><br><br>
Now cross check that with this:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=3611114" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3611114</a><br><br>
which might explain why some vaccinated people get tetanus?</div>
</td>
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A while back you and Spy were talking about how right around half the people who get tetanus "should" be immune according to serology. (or it was something to that effect).<br>
Can you find a link on the "immune" people who still get tetanus?

 

[Spy]

This is what I saved <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br><a href="http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/4/761?ijkey=ba2cc31c3500ede4a8d833e5ea2a2f972bf9df4a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha" target="_blank">http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content...e2=tf_ipsecsha</a><br><br><a href="http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/320/7231/383" target="_blank">http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/320/7231/383</a><br><br>
Ooops, first one is already gone, heres the abstract: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1565228&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract</a>

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

So are the immunologists going to explain this?<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3746002" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3746002</a><br><br>
Spy the first URL doesn't work.<br><br>
Re the bmj, oh yeah... there's a few of them. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Now, here's a funny abstract in USA:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=2679573" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2679573</a>
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Of the 84 patients who reported their immunization histories, <b><i>five reported no complete series of tetanus shots but had adequate antibody levels, while three reported a complete series but had inadequate levels.</i></b></td>
</tr></table></div>

 

[mamakay]

Wow...look at this! Another one..<br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=6680401" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6680401</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The data suggest a silent oral immunization by tetanus bacilli thus boosting under unhygienic conditions the tetanus immunity with advancing age.</td>
</tr></table></div>

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Yes, but I think the key is this one:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1092755" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The existence of natural immunization was unquestionably demonstrated by presence of protective levels of tetanus antitoxin in the blood of the majority of 59 surveyed subjects considering that none of them had ever received any tetanus toxoid and most of them never received a single shot of any drug. The results of this survey originated a few arguments that may <b><i><span style="text-decoration:underline;">support the answer to some still intriguing phenomenona such as: 1. The relatively small number of cases of overt disease among people and animals born and living in large tetanus-risk regions all over the world.</span></i></b> 2. <b><i>The existence of "poor responders" and "good responders" to the primary tetanus toxoid stimulus.</i></b> 3. The age distribution of tetanus showing evident prevalence among newborns and children.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Which indicates to me that the <b>bad</b> responders to the infection, might also be the <b>bad</b> responders to the vaccine.<br><br>
But <b><i>historically</i></b> the point is that tetanus has always been very very rare anyway <b><i>presumably because</i></b> humans are capable of acquiring natural immunity.<br><br>
But like I said, some doctors argue that since we no longer crawl in dirt, and eat barn-yard dust, naturally immunity is irrelevant. So then, how can they say the vaccine was responsible for the decline of tetanus? Might it be that with <b><i>less exposure</i></b> to tetanus there are fewer opportunities for regular large bolus doses? After all, they can't have it both ways. If we have less exposure, therefore can't get natural immunity any more because of "sanitary conditions", then it stands to reason that even without a vaccine there would be fewer cases.<br><br>
No?<br><br>
(I realise the potential flaw in that logic <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">)<br><br>
But my youngest had a hobby of eating earwigs which I always found the abdomens of in his nappy, so maybe he's okay <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">

 

[mamakay]

This is so sad. Google "subclinical tetanus".<br>
One hit in all of the internet.<br><a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/archive/index.php/t-363329.html" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions.../t-363329.html</a><br><br>
WTH?<br>
Is that not a question worth exploring?

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtezuma Tuatara</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6830805"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Yes, but I think the key is this one:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1092755" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1092755</a><br><br><br><br>
Which indicates to me that the <b>bad</b> responders to the infection, might also be the <b>bad</b> responders to the vaccine.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
That was my first thought, too. Some kind of bad luck of the draw immunodeficiency.

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

I have an article on subacute tetanus... lemme find it..

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

Here ya go:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3773025" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=3773025</a>

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

All the patients were adults, and basically had maybe mild ataxia, funny muscle spasms and mild difficulty swallowing<br><br>
And then compare the one above, with this one on tetanus in immunized children:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8335151" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=8335151</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">he course of tetanus in immunized patients is atypical and often benign, but the diagnosis is problematic--in contrast to affected children in developing countries, whose populations are not adequately immunized and where neonatal tetanus is common and often fatal.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Ironic isn't it, that this is "atypical" when actually sub-acute or subclinical is the norm. Shows how brainwashed they are.<br><br><br>
And this:<br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16183461" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=16183461</a>

 

[suschi]

WRT lack of information the "exspurts" have on the immune system,<br><br>
This article was just published this month,<br><br><a href="http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/526194/?sc=rssn" target="_blank">http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/526194/?sc=rssn</a><br><br>
Saturday December 23, 2006<br><br>
Cellular Pathway Yields Potential New Weapon in Vaccine Arsenal<br><br>
Released: Fri 22-Dec-2006, 20:45 ET<br><br>
"When a cell has to destroy any of its organelles or protein aggregates, it envelops them in a membrane, forming an autophagosome, and then moves them to another compartment, the lysosome, for digestion. Two years ago, Rockefeller University assistant professor Christian Münz showed that this process, called autophagy, sensitizes cells for recognition by the immune system’s helper T cells. But he didn’t know how often this pathway is used or how efficient it is. Now, a new study published online today in the journal Immunity goes a long way toward addressing these questions and shows that the pathway is so common that it could be a valuable new way of boosting vaccine efficacy."<br><br>
See link above for entire article.

 

[mamakay]

Bump. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[Momtezuma Tuatara]

But here's the problem with this approach...<br><br><a href="http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/526194/?sc=rssn" target="_blank">http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/526194/?sc=rssn</a>
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>suschi</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/6831943"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Two years ago, Rockefeller University assistant professor Christian Münz showed that this process, called autophagy, sensitizes cells for recognition by the immune system’s helper T cells. But he didn’t know how often this pathway is used or how efficient it is.</div>
</td>
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This is what these immunologist do. They don't know how often the pathway is, or how efficient it is. Right?<br><br>
That's what he said. BUT... the very pathway he is talking about, is a key pathway in terms of vaccines, because its <b><i>dendritic cells</i></b> that are turned on by aluminium, or whatever adjuvant is used to switch it on, which then act as the antigen presenters.<br><br>
So what business do they have shoving anything in there, when they know squat about what it really does?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Now, a new study published online today in the journal Immunity goes a long way toward addressing these questions and shows that the pathway is so common that it could be a valuable new way of boosting vaccine efficacy."</td>
</tr></table></div>
So here we go again.<br><br>
Let the fools rush in where angels fear to tread.<br><br>
More:
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Now Münz, head of Rockefeller’s Laboratory of Viral Immunobiology, and Dorothee Schmid, a graduate student in the lab, <b><i>have shown that the autophagy pathway is far more widespread than they thought:</i></b> They found that a surprising number of cells with MHC class II molecules on their surfaces used the autophagy pathway.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Well, hello? Had they asked me ten years ago; had they bothered to study Sir MacFarlane Burnet who wrote in the 60's and 70's that should have been self-evident.<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/duh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="duh"> Oh, I forgot. Old literature doesn't teach us very much does it? So why read it?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">In skin (epithelial) cells and two other types of immune cells (dendritic and B cells), <b>50 to 80 percent of the autophagosomes moved into the loading compartment for MHC class II molecules.</b> “For types of cells that upregulate MHC class II upon inflammation -- epithelial cells of infected organs, for instance -- <b><i>one could assume</i></b> that they might actually use the autophagy pathway fairly frequently,” Münz says.</td>
</tr></table></div>
So, what will be their next assumption do you reckon?