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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of you may remember my story but if not here it is:

While I was pregnant I mentioned to my partner that I didn't want to have our son circumcised. He of course said that we needed to and he would rather have it done. That was pretty much the end of the conversation. When he was born, I was soooo tired from labor ect. so I just agreed to have it done. ( I know this is not an excuse but I think my mind was not clear, I had been up for three days straight by this time) Anyway...I feel horrible about it now, every time I think about it I want to cry. I didn't do any research on it to make a decision. I worked 55-60 hours a week when I was pregnant and to be honest I just didn't have time. I wish I could go back but I can't. Luckily I found this site before it was time to have his shots and am still researching vaccinations. I am proud to say I WILL NOT be vaxing my son, nor will I any other children I have and I won't circ another son. So anyway...my cousin is pregnant and having a little boy. I asked her the other day if she was gonna circ and she said, " I guess...why?" I told her I was just curious and I wish I hadn't had Jaryn circ'd. So then she started asking why, I told her a little of what I know which is basically, there is no reason and it can cause problems later on in life. I also mentioned about not vaxing. Well...she asked if I could get her some info on both before the baby was born. She isn't due until Aug. 22nd, but she is in the hospital now because her BP is high and she has protein in her urine. They may or may not induce, but I want her to have the info before hand so she can make a decision. I think she will decide against it but I want to give her some info on it so she can decide. I need a web site that I can go to and print some stuff off to give to her.

I know this doesn't make up for what I did to my son and I will never forgive myself for doing it but I feel better knowing I may aide in keeping another little boy intact. Thank you in advance and I just want to say thank you to those who do not judge me and have been supportive to me when I feel like a jackass for having him cut.

Proud Mommy to Jaryn 4-16-06 :2bfbabe:
 

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What exactly do you want to print? What kind of information? There are lots of sites in one of the stickies at the top of this forum.
 

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I think you should find out WHY she wants to in the first place. Because daddy is? Because of medical reasons? Because it's "cleaner"? She doesn't want him to be teased in the locker room? When we know why it is that she feels the need to, then we can better answer her questions.

Here are a couple of sites I have found helpful
http://www.coloradonocirc.org/pamphlets.php
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...aec0e3dcbc&p=1

I also suggest having her watch a video if that's possible
 

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Forced genital cutting video footage. This has to end.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/161143..._circumcision/

TURN YOUR SPEAKERS ON!!

alternate route:

http://www.intact.ca/video.html

Transcription of what is said during the Circumcision Video:

Doctor [drawing on paper next to the empty Circumstraint, and talking to the baby's father before the operation begins]: This is the penis itself... in the final look, there's a little groove and then there's the actual head of the penis like this, right? (Uh, its a little to big for this diagram...)

Father: Right...

Doctor: But basically, the foreskin comes all the way along here right over the top...

Father: Mmm-hmm

Doctor: ...and up like that. You're gonna take it back to about here.

Father: Okay.

Doctor: So. This is the natural skin, when we're all finished;

Father: Mm-hmm.

Doctor: This is healed where the skin was taken away; and this is completely one line, completely free.

Father: Okay. Okay.

Doctor: If that was your question...

Father. Yeah. Yeah. That's... that's what I want. [Laughs nervouslyl.]

Doctor: Okay? Alright! That's what you're gonna get!

Father: Yeah okay, good...

Doctor: We're gonna set 'im down right here.... [Undoing the straps of the Circumcstraint.]

Father, [to the doctor:] He's all yours....[to his son:] C'mere my boy....

Doctor [To the father :] He's GROWN!

Father: Yeah.

Doctor: Look at the size, eh!?

Father: Oh my!

Doctor [putting the baby in the Circumstraint]: Look at him! He is... [baby begins to cry] Now, you'll notice, that he was nice and quiet - he's already fussy. Why? Maybe he doesn't want to be in this position, maybe he doesn't want to move his arms or his legs. You'll find th at one of the things that they most don't like is being unable to move. Cuz, their legs are normally flexed, right? And what we do is we take their legs out and we put 'em in a position- see how much he's reisiting me just now?

Father: Right. Right....

Doctor: And as soon as he realizes that he can't move that he gets all... He IS getting chubby! Let's put his sox on....

Father: He's gained, uh, seven ounce now... [Baby cries again as the doctor straps his legs down.]

Doctor: See? If you were standing outside the door, and you hear that, you'd say 'Oh my goodness! What's happening?'"

Father: Yeah- 'what is that?'

Doctor: [Opening up the baby's diaper] Oh, he's actually... a good size! Now. Of course, we check that the penis is fully normal, right? We also check and make sure both testicles are okay. (We've checked this before on him.) But, he's a little bit pudgy here and I'll show you what I mean by 'pudgy'. [Baby cries again.] Now we've done nothing to him. LISTEN to him! And that's important because everybody gets all excited about how they...

Father: Is it okay if I put this in? [Referring to a pacifier/soother]

Doctor: Sure! By all means. By all means.

Father: Quiet him down a bit... [To his son:] Okay. son, okay....

Doctor; Alright. So, the first thing we do...

Father: [To the baby} Go to sleep... Go to sleep. Go to sleep....

Doctor [Putting Betadine, an anti-infectant, on the baby's penis and scrotum]; Now this doesn't burn on anything. Also just the wetness alone will get them all excited here. [Baby cries again]

Father: Okay son. Okay....

Doctor: But, If he's quiet and doesn't move his legs, he's quiet. You watch the hands and legs! (They hate this....)

[Baby begins to scream, then shriek as two needle-nosed glamps are closed on the opening of his foreskin, a bigger clamp is inserted into the foreskin's opening, and the foreskin is torn away from the penile head.]

Doctor: What we've done here is we've completely separated all of the skin from the head of the penis- you can see the outline of the head of the penis, right?

Father: Yeah...

Doctor: So we've taken the skin right down, here, right? Right down to that level we talked about.

Father [to the baby]: Okay. Okay... okay....

[The doctor makes the dorsal crush with the flat hemostats. As the baby begins to shriek over and over.]

Father: Is that the anesthetic?

Doctor: What?

Father: Is that the anesthetic, or?

Doctor: No that, that just crimps the whole thing.

[The baby begins to choke on spit in his throat while still shrieking- "gargling"]

Doctor; We'll let that sit for just a moment. K? What we could do is release his arms... [The doctor undoes the baby's arms from the velcro straps.] So he feels less.... [Baby continues to scream higher and higher.]

Father: I was aware that you'd use an anesthetic.

Doctor: What?

[The doctor makes the dorsal slit along the crush line with a pair of scissors.]

Father: I was aware that you'd uh use an anesthetic?

Dcotor: We mix into the mixure here...

Father: Okay.

Doctor: And that just takes the edge off it, okay? And uh...

Father: [To his baby] Okay, son....

[The baby continues to shriek and choke as the foreksin is laid back off the glans.. and the doctor wipes the blood from the glans with a piece of gauze, until there is no sound heard from him until he gasps and resumes shrieking and choking]

Father: 'I need your help'

Doctor: [In a soothing tone to the father.] Alright. We'll settle him down. [Baby's still sputtering.]

Father: [Neverously] Okay. No problem. No problem.

[The doctor assembles the Gomco clamp over glans and pulls the foreskin through the plate and over the bell with tweezers as the baby chokes and chokes and screams!]

Doctor: [To the father] Oh, he's gotten himself upset. [To the baby] I think Dadd'ys getting excited! Its okay Dad. We'll be okay....

[The baby continues to shriek and choke as the rocker arm is assembled on the Gomco clamp and the nut is tightened.]

[The baby keeps choking.]

Doctor: Nice big swallow he had there.

Father: Yeah

Doctor: ...now he got it out.

Doctor: We'll just let him sit a little bit.

Father: You're okay. You're okay.... Okay son. Okay..... Okay... Its almost done. Okay....

[The baby continues a bleating cry, alternating with occasional shrieks, while finally the foreskin is cut off in a circular motion with a scalpel against the bell of the clamp.]

[The baby stops crying and begins a quick, raspy panting as the ring of detached foreskin is cut off with scissors.]

Doctor: Okay now we let him sit for a little second.

[The doctor gets out some petrolium jelly.]

Father: Mmm-hmmm

Doctor: Just so that uh... what it does is stop all- any potential for bleeding. Okay? So he's sitting there with the clamp on... and he seems to be... reLAXING a little bit! So we let him sit for a few minutes and that's it. [Baby still is panting loudly through his nose.] And uh, there's a drop or two here and a drop or two here- and that's your total blood-loss.

Father: Mm-kay.

Doctor: Actually, at this point, what I do normally is go through the instructions with the parents cuz t gives a chance for that. So all we're gonna do is we're gonna change the diapers frequently, simply to keep the stool and the urine away from the area...

Father: Right.

Doctor:...- something that you'd do anyway; you'd be changing him frequently. The big trick [the baby begins a plaintive cry.] is large amounts of Vaseline to that area.

Father: Okay.

Doctor: Okay? And this prevents the penis from sticking to the diaper.

Father: Right.

Doctor. So each diaper change, just a great big glob. Now I put it on a piece of gauze here- just some people lift it into place, but when you're changing him, you can put it directly onto the penis, okay?

Father: Okay... [The father continues with various "Mmm -hmm's" and "Okay..." 's and "Rights"...as the doctor continues his explaination.]

[The baby still is crying and complaining off and on with the clamp still on his penis.]

Doctor: If he DOES soil himself with stool all over the cut area, right? You're gonna wash with a warm water, but you're not gonna use any soap until its heal cuz the soap will be hurting, right? You're also not going to rub it hard- just to remove the stuff, right? And the child remains, you know, settled on... comforatable or whatever his normal position is- usually on the back, right? After a few days or so, there's a white-yellowish, yellow tissue- like you burnt something? If you've ever burnt yourself or grazed yourself, you have this scab-like material that forms? Do not attempt to rub that off; its a normal part of the healing process, okay?

And then, the healing itself usually takes about 3, 4, 5 days, and at that point, after about 3 days or so, they can go straight into the bath. K? You don't want to dump him into the bath while he still has the open cut, right? Here's an important point, it says - "Keep the skin down"- This is particulary importnat point for HIM, because [Baby's Name] has- ummm ... uh.... he's kinda chubby in that area. So what happens is- is we've removed the skin to here- there's quite a bit of fat around the base here and sometimes what happens is the skin will push up over the head of the penis. So today or tomorrow while its still MOVEable -It won't be moveable AFTER that- but today and tomorrow you just watch- and you make SURE that it stays at the level it is. It should. It should. Just in case is does go up, we take the four tingers [uses the thumb and index finger of each of his hands as he demonstrates in the air] and push that skin down to its normal position so it HEALS at the level we want it to. Okay? That's what we mean by "Keep the skin down" over here. And once he's completely healed, there's no special, you know- ANYthing! - just wash and bathe as normal. You don't have to retract to clean cuz there's nothing there!

Ummm. ... I've never had an infection, but I have to tell you about it. Obviously if you have a foul odor or puss draining from that area or it gets all red, there's a possibility that there is an infection. Uh, what CAN happen at times is excessive or ongoing bleeding. Umm... Again: Its not something that happens USUALLY. Uh, you can apply a little bit of a cloth with some pressure; that usually stops it; if you can't stop it, it needs attention. And there shouldn't be any problem with him passing urine immediately after the procedure. So you'll know from that he's passing urine. This will go with you- [he hands him the instruction sheet he was just reading from[. so you don't have to remember ANY of that and we'll give him just a minute more and we'll take that off and you'll- you see that its the way you want it to be.

Father: So... there WAS some form of anesthetic...?

Doctor: A topical sort of things, yeah., yeah.

Father: Okay...

Doctor: Not MUCH- it just takes the edge off. And you see he's sitting with the clamp on, munching away.

Father; Mmm-hmm...

Doctor: Now, there's a big debate, of course, about injections or others or whatnot... Its been done for thousands and thousands of years without ANYthing and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Father [laughing nervously]: Yeah....

Doctor: Although, there's some recent research that comes out CLAIMING that there's... you know... [sarcastically quoting] "irreVERSEable damage done!'....So there's a LOT of people with a LOT of irreversable damange running
 

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If she's in the hospital, and doesn't have internet access, I would print a couple of pamphlets and take them to her so she has something to read.

www.oknocirc.blogspot.com (I think there's a "printable format" link)

www.nocirc.org

www.coloradonocirc.org (go to the "pamphlets" link, the top pamphlet is really great)

I wouldn't just email her a bunch of links. I would print out two, maybe three things, take them in, and TALK to her. A lot of people get turned off if you email them multiple sites, because then it's just "the internet" and they might not take the time to click anything, let alone all the sites, KWIM? You really need to talk to her.

Also, let her know that the AAP does NOT recommend routine infant circumcision - that there's no medical organization in the world that does.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
She doesn't have a computer even at home. I had planned to print things off to take to here. I don't know why she has thought about it, she probably just thinks it is what you do. The father isn't around at all, she has pretty much went thru this by herself. I will just look for some stuff myself. I am not going to watch the video because as I said before I regret having my son circ'd and watching the video might take me over the edge, and I'm not going to do that to myself. Thanks for the links
 

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I would definetely suggest talking to her yourself in this scenario.

If her only reason was thinking that it was always done inform her that about 85% of the world's men are intact. It is likely that under 50% of American babies born were last year. Try and find out other reasons and eliminate them as they come before giving her a solid reason not to: try to emphasise that circumcision has a negative impact upon the man's sex life and remind her that it is irreversable so if the man is unhappy with that then there is no way he can change it.

At the core of your argument there is a highly logical premise (intact men can be circumcised while circumcised men can never become intact) so just stick to that, stuff like complications should get a mention too because there is always a risk but make sure that what will happen for certain is given at least as much talking time than what could.
 

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Kudos to you mama, for helping your friend's baby! As we say a lot around here, "When you know better, you do better."
You don't need to watch the video - I can't, either, it's just too sad.
But you are a brave mama for owning up to your own past mistake and trying to help someone else avoid the same mistake.

FYI, that's exactly how Marilyn Milos, RN, got started as the founder of NOCIRC. She had 3 boys in the late 60s/early 70s, they were all circed, and it wasn't until she went to nursing school when they were older that she learned what circ is. She has been such a force for good in the world, and that's what you are too! One baby at a time.
 
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