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I printed out "The case against circumcision" for my dp and he said he would be glad to read it but after the first page he said it was really biased and he didn't like it. Does anyone know of a really good article that discusses the cons and (imagined probably but he needs to see 'em) pros of circumcision but ultimately suggests that the decision be left to his future son when he is a consenting adult?<br><br>
I will show him the Penn and Teller video but I think he wants something more scientific but not so obviously slanted in opposition of circumcision. His biggest arguements are, its easier to clean and "I want him to look like me".<br><br>
Thank you!
 

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He's already decided he wants it done for non-rational, non-educated reasons, and it feels threatening to him to consider anything else, so anything he learns about it that says that circumcision might be a bad thing is going to seem biased to him - whereas it's really just the other side of the story that he's never heard. It's going to take him so time to come to terms with this. Have you read this about the psychology of a circed father confronting the idea of not circing a son? <a href="http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html" target="_blank">http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html</a><br><br>
Actually, the Case Against Circumcision is extremely well documented with medical research articles. Did he finish reading it? If he's unwilling to read information about it, he shouldn't have a say in the matter.<br><br>
As far as "it's cleaner", ask him to provide you with medical evidence - he won't be able to do it, because there isn't any. Instead you can educate him about how easy it is to take care of the intact penis. e.g. <a href="http://www.nocirc.org/publish/4pam.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.nocirc.org/publish/4pam.pdf</a><br><br><br>
A couple other possible handouts that might be less threatening and more credible to him are: (Read them yourself first to see what you think)<br><a href="http://askdrsears.com/html/1/t012000.asp" target="_blank">http://askdrsears.com/html/1/t012000.asp</a><br><a href="http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm" target="_blank">http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm</a><br><br>
You are right, he probably needs to learn some more about the complications, and negative effects on sexuality to get some real perspective on whether it's valid to have a son circed to "look like me." Of course the latter aspect is likely to be challenging to him, but this is exactly why your son's rights must be protected, and you are the only one who can do it.<br><br>
Gillian
 

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I had the same problem with giving my DH info to read - he would immediately discount everything that seemed biased... I could not show him anything that was from an "anti-circ" website <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:<br>
The ones that worked for me (DS is intact <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up">) are:<br><br>
from Men's Fitness mag: <a href="http://www.infocirc.org/mf0899.htm" target="_blank">http://www.infocirc.org/mf0899.htm</a><br>
from Men's Health mag: <a href="http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm" target="_blank">http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm</a><br><br>
From a Virginia newspaper (written by a doctor)<br><a href="http://www.cirp.org/news/freelance-star11-13-05/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/news/freelance-star11-13-05/</a><br><br>
Science Daily website - stating the "cure for HIV" approach is overstated<br><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070620085239.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0620085239.htm</a><br><br>
from POZ - a website on health and HIV - re the HIV/circ relation<br><a href="http://www.poz.com/articles/2023_12145.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.poz.com/articles/2023_12145.shtml</a><br><br>
From healthcentral.com - purpose of the foreskin<br><a href="http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9987.html" target="_blank">http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9987.html</a><br><br>
From FrontPage mag website - re: sexual pleasure<br><a href="http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=B2E1AA1E-B3F5-452C-8A19-8D8BC29AD365" target="_blank">http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Art...9-8D8BC29AD365</a><br><br>
same site re: emotional damage<br>
<a href="http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={700CC34D-E679-4D1B-8F39-E7822369F177" target="_blank">http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={700CC34D-E679-4D1B-8F39-E7822369F177</a>}<br><br>
The Lancet study on pain during circ and long lasting effects<br><a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/</a><br>
and<br><a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/responses.html" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/responses.html</a><br><br><br>
From Mensight magazine - re: sexual pleasure<br><a href="http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Northrup/lovecirc.htm" target="_blank">http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles...p/lovecirc.htm</a><br><br>
australian doctors call for circumcision ban<br><a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/09/2113665.htm" target="_blank">http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...09/2113665.htm</a><br><br>
and this is from a "biased" site - but explains what is "lost" during circumcision - <a href="http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html" target="_blank">http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html</a><br>
and I think the one that stands out for the average male is:<br><br><b>Some of the penis length and circumference because its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is now missing, making the circumcised penis truncated and thinner than it would have been if left intact.<br>
An Australian survey in 1995 showed circumcised men to have erect penises an average of 8mm shorter than intact men.</b><br><span style="font-size:xx-small;">[1. R. D. Talarico and J. E. Jasaitis, "Concealed Penis: A Complication of Neonatal Circumcision," Journal of Urology 110 (1973): 732-733. 2. Richters J, Gerofi J, Donovan B. Why do condoms break or slip off in use? An exploratory study. Int J STD AIDS. 1995; 6(1):11-8. ]</span><br><br>
I mean, even if some men won't admit it - they probably believe size is VERY important, and thinking that they could be making their boy's penis smaller by circing is a big deal...<br><br>
I also searched the Journal of Urology and the Lancet and other medical sites and found some good straight scientific info - but can't find the bookmarks now...<br><br>
Good luck - I hope this helps!<br><br>
oh, also, as far as the "look like dad" thing - ask your Dh how he will explain his son's lack of pubic hair? or different eye color? - there are lots of things that will be different from dad - it is pretty easy to explain and really not a big deal....
 

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ITA with PP if his reasons are he wants him to look like me and it's cleaner then I'm not sure what science has to do with it. Or why he expects science to address his insecurities that result in him wanting his child to have patching penis's.
 

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Does he also want his son to have the same facial hair as him, or lack of it? Like matching moustaches...or goatee? Ugh.<br><br>
You could also get the book, "What the doctor may not tell you about circumcision", by Dr Paul Fleiss. It goes into the fact that the whole bugaboo about circumcision was from a 10,000 year old blood ritual to satisfy the sky god. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll">
 

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Pm me your email and i can send you a word document against routine infant circumcision, but pro-circ. It's something you will want to read for yourself first, and is taken from an infamous pro-circ website. It is a matter of perspective and testimonials, that are blunt and common sense, but it has helped some fathers understand why circ shouldn't be done to an <i>infant</i>... and that the son should have the right to choose for himself.
 

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In case he mentions cancer of the penis:<br><br><a href="http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/hellberg1/" target="_blank">http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/hellberg1/</a><br><br>
Penile cancer: Is there an epidemiological role for smoking and sexual behavior?<br><br>
Penile cancer is associated with smoking independently of phimosis; treatment of phimosis alone does not remove the risk caused by smoking.
 

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Kristine, you are going about this a bit backward. You have let your husband put you on the defensive and he should be the one who is on the defensive. Instead of him requiring you to provide proof, (that he will just reject as biased) you should just state that The AAP does not recommend routine infant circumcision and if he wants it done, he has to convince you with articles and research from reliable sources. If he really wants it done, this is going to be a challenge for him and is going to take an inordinate amount of time simply because there is very little research available that supports circumcision and they can all be refuted with other research and common sense and logic.<br><br>
I suspect that the more reseach he does, the less enamored he will be with the idea of circumcising your son. That is the case with most "obstinate fathers."<br><br>
.
 

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He's already decided he wants it done for non-rational, non-educated reasons, and it feels threatening to him to consider anything else, so anything he learns about it that says that circumcision might be a bad thing is going to seem biased to him - whereas it's really just the other side of the story that he's never heard. It's going to take him so time to come to terms with this. Have you read this about the psychology of a circed father confronting the idea of not circing a son? <a href="http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html" target="_blank">http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html</a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"><br><br>
Honestly, I feel people simple down the emotions and feelings of fathers and men on this board, and I only mention it, because it hurts the movement. When you confront a man who has grown up in a procirc culture and you give them a site that tells them all at once they have been victimized and their penis is missing all these things, how the heck do you think they are going to react. "yay honey, this site says my body is broken, awesome!" Thats how it can feel with the more intense anti circ sites. *minus the sarcasm* You cant just blow men off because they dont react all anti circ in the first few seconds after the issue is first brought up.<br><br>
Bring up the real issues here, that simply this is his sons body, and he should have the right to do what he wants with it. As a mother and as a member of a new forming family, you dont want to take the risk and the cost of a surgery thats not absolutely needed.<br><br>
When trying to convince someone of something, you have to first lay foundations that they can agree with you on, or its all going to fall apart. Its like trying to build a house from the roof down. Its all going to fall apart in the end.
 

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A slide show of circumcision "reasons" throughout history ultimately proven to be wrong:<br><a href="http://www.icgi.org/2007/04/medicalization-of-circumcision-an-online-slide-show/" target="_blank">http://www.icgi.org/2007/04/medicali...ne-slide-show/</a><br><br>
Not anti-circ (Re: your DP's wishes), just a logical 'factoid' about being proven wrong time and time (and time) again.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>perspective</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10312094"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><a href="http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html" target="_blank">http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html</a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"><br><br>
Honestly, <b>I feel people simple down the emotions and feelings of fathers and men on this board</b>, and I only mention it, because it hurts the movement. When you confront a man who has grown up in a procirc culture and you give them a site that tells them all at once they have been victimized and their penis is missing all these things, how the heck do you think they are going to react. "yay honey, this site says my body is broken, awesome!" ...</div>
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*slightly* OT, but perhaps not?-- <b>perspective</b>, I just don't understand what you don't like about this <i>article</i>??? It is about taking your husband's feelings into account, not about his body being broken at all. It's about how to get a hubby to understand all of the points you yourself mentioned, perspective. Can you explain what it is about this article that bothers you?<br><br><b>kristinekristine</b>- I agree with many pps about your hubby should be doing the research FOR circ, trying to convince you, not the otherway around. <i>You</i> are the <i>mother</i> and <i>you</i> have the final say.
 

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I think Gillian hit nail on the head. I'd ask him how rational it is to have a cosmetic surgery on a non-consenting minor for the sole purpose of making something easier to clean? I think I'd also (gently) ask him how rational it is to want his child's sex organs to look like his? Are they going to compare them? Is he willing to shave until his son grows hair? They're NOT going to look alike even when they're adults.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>thixle</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10312369"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">*slightly* OT, but perhaps not?-- <b>perspective</b>, I just don't understand what you don't like about this <i>article</i>??? It is about taking your husband's feelings into account, not about his body being broken at all. It's about how to get a hubby to understand all of the points you yourself mentioned, perspective. Can you explain what it is about this article that bothers you?<br><br><b>kristinekristine</b>- I agree with many pps about your hubby should be doing the research FOR circ, trying to convince you, not the otherway around. <i>You</i> are the <i>mother</i> and <i>you</i> have the final say.</div>
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oo, sorry. I did not read the article. Just what she said was very dismissive of her husband simply because of the way he reacted.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thank you so much for all of the articles. I really appreciate your help. He is reading further into the first article I gave him and he says it is getting more scientific and less dramatic and he is finding it more interesting.<br><br>
I certainly didn't mean to be dissmissive of his feelings. I can totally see why he would feel threatened upon first reading this article. We have never been told anything or educated against circumcision and it's even more personal for him to discover these things seeing as he is circumcised. I dont even want to have to talk to him about how different (possibly much better) sex could be if he hadnt been circumcised, how hurt he would feel that his parents took that from him without even thinking. It would be very hard to be a circumcised male finding out how unnecessary and harmful it is to be circumcised. That is why I want to find the most educational resources for him and nudge gently.<br><br>
We both already know that we will not be circumcising our son, I have made that decision already but I want him to feel great about that decision and be able to back it up if he is questioned by family friend or whoever.<br><br>
He knows that if it was even an option he would have to strongly prove his case for a circumcision. I am not trying to convince him to let me not circumcise our kid I am trying to get him excited and passionate about not circumcising. I want him to not feel insulted when he reads anti-circ articles and not feel it is biased but I think being sensitive about his feelings is the best way to go about it.<br><br>
Thanks again for all the articles. We are watching birth as we know it tonight and I have a feeling just seeing it done, he will turn to me and say "we can not do that to our baby".
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>kristinekristine</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10316914"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I am trying to get him excited and passionate about not circumcising. I want him to not feel insulted when he reads anti-circ articles and not feel it is biased but I think being sensitive about his feelings is the best way to go about it.<br><br>
Thanks again for all the articles. <b>We are watching birth as we know it tonight</b> and I have a feeling just seeing it done, he will turn to me and say "we can not do that to our baby".</div>
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How did the movie go? I haven't seen any videos of circ...<br>
I think if you keep an open conversation, your hubby will eventually against routine infant circ. When I was pregnant, I laid out the "over my dead body" routine- of course, we had a girl... But DH took it really hard at first. And I didn't tell him anything other than it hurts the baby and is unnecessary.<br>
Really, it's only been the last few months (when I brought up restoration to him) that he's become a staunch intactivist. Down to the bumpersticker and stashing pamphlets with me <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>perspective</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10314098"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">oo, sorry. I did not read the article. Just what she said was very dismissive of her husband simply because of the way he reacted.</div>
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I still don't understand-- honestly, I am trying to pry so that I don't get a fake "man answer." What part was offensive/dismissive? I spend a lot of time speaking with men IRL about this issue and I just don't see anthing dismissive in glongley's post either? What part bothered you so that I can evaluate it and change MY approach to men in general?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>kristinekristine</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">We both already know that we will not be circumcising our son, I have made that decision already but I want him to feel great about that decision and be able to back it up if he is questioned by family friend or whoever.<br><br>
He knows that if it was even an option he would have to strongly prove his case for a circumcision. I am not trying to convince him to let me not circumcise our kid I am trying to get him excited and passionate about not circumcising. I want him to not feel insulted when he reads anti-circ articles and not feel it is biased but I think being sensitive about his feelings is the best way to go about it.</div>
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You may just have to settle for what you can get, which may be a dh who is fine not circing his sons but doesn't really want to know what circ is/does or why it's wrong. There are many guys who learn about circ and become intactivists and get all fired up about the cause, but others simply don't and pushing them in that direction can be very hurtful for them.<br><br>
I know from experience that this is how my dh is -- he's fine with his penis, he's fine with his parents circing him, he's fine with ds being intact, and beyond that he simply cannot go (most likely does not want to go for his own peace of mind). With my dh, the more I tried to talk about circ and convince him of how wrong it is, the more he would just shut down emotionally because at bottom he doesn't want to think of himself as victimized or missing anything. It became such a huge issue for us (and this was months after ds was born) that I finally realized I had to take my intactivism out of our marriage. It's my issue, not his issue.<br><br>
As far as family/friends/whoever giving you two a hard time about leaving your son intact, your dh can just use the "it's our decision and it's not up for discussion" line. If he's not comfortable advocating against circ, he can just leave that to you, as long as he stands behind you and doesn't criticize you.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quirky</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10320416"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">You may just have to settle for what you can get, which may be a dh who is fine not circing his sons but doesn't really want to know what circ is/does or why it's wrong. There are many guys who learn about circ and become intactivists and get all fired up about the cause, but others simply don't and pushing them in that direction can be very hurtful for them.<br><br>
I know from experience that this is how my dh is -- he's fine with his penis, he's fine with his parents circing him, he's fine with ds being intact, and beyond that he simply cannot go (most likely does not want to go for his own peace of mind). With my dh, the more I tried to talk about circ and convince him of how wrong it is, the more he would just shut down emotionally because at bottom he doesn't want to think of himself as victimized or missing anything. It became such a huge issue for us (and this was months after ds was born) that I finally realized I had to take my intactivism out of our marriage. It's my issue, not his issue.<br></div>
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I'm struggling very much with something very similar right now. I don't ever expect DH to become an intactivist like I am, however I wish he would at the very least not still wish our DS was circ'd <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/gloomy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Gloomy">: and see it more as an ethics thing instead of "it's the parent's choice". For weeks I have been meaning to read to him "care of the [intact] penis" and hoping that will set off a light bulb, plus he needs to know that anyways in case anything happens to me.<br><br>
I know sometimes it takes people a while to accept that circ really isn't necessary and should be the child's choice (when the are an adult), but if he still thinks it's a perfectly OK thing to do, I'm just not sure how I can reconcile that with myself. I just don't know. How do you say OK to that?<br><br>
OP, I know how you feel as I have been there (and still sort of am). Our husbands hear all these "locker room" things and just can't seem to let them go.
 

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I found a great book called Sex As Nature Intended that might be helpful. Although it is a book not an article so if he is anything like my DH he will not be willing to spend the time to read the whole thing. But he may skim it and read a lot of the comments made by some women about why sex is better with forskin.
 
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