[nathansmum]

Hi all<br><br>
We're non vaxxers, done heaps of research, and don't worry about things usually...<br><br>
However, today ds stood on a sharp old metal thing down in the garden buried in the grass. He has a thin cut about 2inchs long in the arch of his foot and reasonably deep (kind of like a decent paper cut). I bled the wound as much as I could but could only get a thin line of blood out of the wound. The wound is clean, but I came in and soaked his foot in warm water with some tea tree oil in it. Then swabbed the area down with hydrogen peroxide and have left the wound uncovered.<br><br>
I then gave a ledum 30c homeopathic remedy, put a call in to my homeopath and switched to hypericum 30c and have repeated this an hour later.<br><br>
I felt ok about all of this until I had a drop in from my stepdad who just did a fleeting comment on "tetanus shot" (not a lecture, and they know we don't vax, but a comment none-the-less that has me wavering).<br><br>
DS is healthy, I'd say he has good circulation providing oxygen to his foot, but the fact that it didn't bleed out a lot kind of makes me concerned. I have also given him some SA and will give him a few more doses over the course of the day.<br><br>
Any thoughts?

 

[Gitti]

I would absolutely not worry about it.<br>
Kids don't get tetanus. And it is not deep plus it does not have to bleed, blood just has to be in the vicinity.<br><br>
Tetanus can only grow on dead tissue. Not even inside your body, deep inside, where there is blood present (not bleeding, just present) tetanus can not grow.<br><br>
That is one reason why crush wounds are in danger of tetanus. There is dead tissue inside the body and blood can't flow around it.<br><br>
Truthfully I wouldn't have done half of what you did aside from cleaning it. There is no danger of tetanus in such a young child.

 

[alegna]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Gitti</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10304889"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I would absolutely not worry about it.</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/yeahthat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="yeah that">:<br><br>
-Angela

 

[nathansmum]

Thanks!<br><br>
Oh, and I forgot to mention it was really rusty - but rust isn't any more of a tetanus issue than anything else anyway is it?

 

[Gitti]

Tetanus can only grow in an oxygen free environment.<br><br>
In order for anything to rust, it need oxygen. So just because it was rusty makes no difference.<br><br>
A rusty dirty thing could cause an infection. But not tetanus.<br><br>
I have always questioned where the 'rusty nail' tale came from?

 

[nathansmum]

Thanks so much Gitti!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><br><br>
It does make you wonder about the rusty nail theory?!

 

[Neldavi]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>nathansmum</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10305841"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thanks so much Gitti!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><br><br>
It does make you wonder about the rusty nail theory?!</div>
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I just read in Aviva Jill Romm's vaccination book that the rusty nail thing comes from horseshoe nails falling out of horse's feet in barns and into piles of horse manure .. and a puncture wound from an old nail in the presence of horse manure could be a problem, obviously, but the story eventually boiled down to *just* rusty nails, which aren't necessarily a risk by themselves.

 

[dymanic]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Gitti</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10304889"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Kids don't get tetanus.</div>
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Statistically, that's true to a first approximation. But when considering the implications of statistical data, it's important to make sure you aren't confusing cause with effect. Almost all reported cases of tetanus are in persons who have either never been vaccinated or who have not had a booster in the preceding 10 years. In the U.S., the numbers of children aged 19-35 months who have recieved at least three doses of the DTaP are estimated to be in the mid to high ninety percentiles. If it's reasonably accurate to say "kids don't get tetanus", it's <i>because</i> most of them are vaccinated against it before they're old enough to start running around getting poked with stuff lying around in the yard, and they haven't lived long enough for their protective titers to have waned.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Tetanus can only grow on dead tissue. Not even inside your body, deep inside, where there is blood present (not bleeding, just present) tetanus can not grow.</td>
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I'd be interested to see what you're using as a source of information for that, because it's not consistent with anything I've ever read about tetanus. Tetanus occurs most often in puncture wounds, yet this type of injury seldom produces significant tissue necrosis directly. It's lack of <i>oxygen</i> that creates conditions favorable to growth of the bacteria, not lack of blood.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I have always questioned where the 'rusty nail' tale came from?</td>
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Tetanus is most often caused by stepping on something sharp; it's most often a nail; and nails rust. If the something was in contact with soil, this increases the risk -- partly because soil is where tetanus spores hang out, and partly because rust gives them something to grab onto. Things rust faster in damp soil, but not immediately. They'll rust in open air, too, it just takes a little longer. So, by itself, the absence or presence of rust ends up not being a very reliable measure of the risk. A more reliable indicator is the fact that the object was "down in the garden buried in the grass".<br><br>
Because of that, the presence of tetanus spores in the wound may be regarded as a virtual certainty (though it's more prevalent in warm, damp climates, it exists pretty much everywhere). The depth of the wound is probably the most important factor at this point. Had the child been vaccinated, the risk would be effectively zero. As it is, it may not be much greater than that, but it's the sort of call that should really be made by a doctor. This is one lottery you don't want to win.

 

[Gitti]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Neldavi</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10308089"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I just read in Aviva Jill Romm's vaccination book that the rusty nail thing comes from horseshoe nails falling out of horse's feet in barns and into piles of horse manure .. and a puncture wound from an old nail in the presence of horse manure could be a problem, obviously, but the story eventually boiled down to *just* rusty nails, which aren't necessarily a risk by themselves.</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/duh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="duh"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"><br><br>
Makes sense!

 

[mamakay]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If it's reasonably accurate to say "kids don't get tetanus", it's because most of them are vaccinated against it before they're old enough to start running around getting poked with stuff lying around in the yard, and they haven't lived long enough for their protective titers to have waned.</td>
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<br>
Can you prove that?<br><br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">During 1998--2000, an average of 43 cases of tetanus was reported annually; the average annual incidence was 0.16 cases/million population. <b>The highest average annual incidence of reported tetanus was among persons aged >60 years (0.35 cases/million population), persons of Hispanic ethnicity (0.37 cases/million population), and older adults known to have diabetes (0.70 cases/million population). Fifteen percent of the cases were among injection-drug users.</b> The case-fatality ratio was 18% among 113 patients with known outcome; 75% of the deaths were among patients aged >60 years.</td>
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What's the incidence of tetanus in unvaccinated kids?<br><br>
If the reason kids don't get tetanus is because they're getting the vaccine, then the incidence of tetanus in unvaccinated kids should be quite high, right? One in 5, one in 10,one in 100, or one in 1,000 etc...<br><br>
If the incidence is extremely <i>low</i> in unvaccinated kids, the kids getting the DTaP can not be "the" reason why kids, as a general rule, don't get tetanus.

 

[dymanic]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10310657"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Can you prove that?</div>
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What, that most kids in the U.S. are vaccinated against tetanus? If you doubt the accuracy of coverage estimates of mid to high ninety percentiles, among 19-35-month-olds, I could link to the stats, but I'd be surprised to see you even dispute it. Are you questioning whether it's true that very nearly every case reported involves a person not protected by vaccination at the time?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If the incidence is extremely low in unvaccinated kids, the kids getting the DTaP can not be "the" reason why kids, as a general rule, don't get tetanus.</td>
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The fact that "as a general rule" kids don't suffer deep puncture wounds probably has quite a bit to do with it as well. What I find most pertinent is that while incidence in unvaccinated kids is very low, in vaccinated kids, it's <i>nonexistent</i>.

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">What, that most kids in the U.S. are vaccinated against tetanus?</td>
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No, I meant...can you prove that the reason kids generally don't get tetanus is because they're getting the DTaP.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The fact that "as a general rule" kids don't suffer deep puncture wounds probably has quite a bit to do with it as well.</td>
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That might be a little of it, too.<br>
Do you think good circulation plays a part?<br>
Proper wound management?<br><br>
If vaccination is <i>the one and only reason</i> kids don't get tetanus, the attack rate in unvaccinated kids should be about 100%.<br>
Right?<br><br>
So, what's the incidence in unvaxed kids?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">What I find most pertinent is that while incidence in unvaccinated kids is very low, in vaccinated kids, it's nonexistent</td>
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Well, that's true.<br><br>
GBS from tetanus vaccination is nonexistent in unvaccinated kds, too.<br>
As is anaphylaxis from vaccination.

 

[attachedmamaof3]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">in vaccinated kids, it's nonexistent</td>
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Not according to the CDC's own tetanus surveillance:<br><br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm#top" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...053713.htm#top</a><br><br>
(13%) of the 122 non-neonatal patients with supplemental data were <b>reported to have received at least a primary series</b> (i.e., three or more doses) <b>of TT</b> before onset of illness (Table_1), <b>including two</b> (40%) <b>of the five non-neonatal patients aged less than 20 years</b>. Three (60%) of the non-neonatal patients aged less than 20 years were unvaccinated because of their parents' religious objections. <b>The fourth case occurred in a boy aged 14 years who was bitten by a dog and who had received his last dose 2 years previously.</b>

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10313011"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Not according to the CDC's own tetanus surveillance:<br><br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm#top" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...053713.htm#top</a><br><br>
(13%) of the 122 non-neonatal patients with supplemental data were <b>reported to have received at least a primary series</b> (i.e., three or more doses) <b>of TT</b> before onset of illness (Table_1), <b>including two</b> (40%) <b>of the five non-neonatal patients aged less than 20 years</b>. Three (60%) of the non-neonatal patients aged less than 20 years were unvaccinated because of their parents' religious objections. <b>The fourth case occurred in a boy aged 14 years who was bitten by a dog and who had received his last dose 2 years previously.</b></div>
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Interesting...

 

[dymanic]

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10312885"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">No, I meant...can you prove that the reason kids generally don't get tetanus is because they're getting the DTaP.</div>
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No. I was expressing my opinion that the evidence speaks for itself. If you look at what happened to tetanus incidence following the introduction of a vaccine against it in the 1940's, I don't see how you could conclude anything but that the vaccine was responsible for the decline.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Do you think good circulation plays a part?</td>
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Don't see why it would.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Proper wound management?</td>
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Yes.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If vaccination is the one and only reason kids don't get tetanus, the attack rate in unvaccinated kids should be about 100%</td>
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Tetanus isn't contagious between hosts, so I don't see how you can even speak meaningfully about attack rate.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">GBS from tetanus vaccination is nonexistent in unvaccinated kds, too.<br>
As is anaphylaxis from vaccination.</td>
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Ok, you got me there. What are those rates?<br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Not according to the CDC's own tetanus surveillance:</div>
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Well, look closer. Only two of the 16 were under 20. Maybe they were under, say, seven. It doesn't say, but figure 3 shows them in the 5-19 group. Call that kids, and note that two out of, say, eighty million is still not "nonexistent", and you win the point. Might note that there were zero <i>fatalities</i> among the fully vaxed, though; as well as this:<br><br>
"<i>Previous vaccination status was directly related to severity of disease, with the case-fatality ratio ranging from 6% for patients who had received one to two doses to 15% for patients who were unvaccinated.</i>"

 

[attachedmamaof3]

Actually, 2 were 0-4, 3 were 5-19...but whatever.<br><br>
My point is:<br><br><b>Your statement was that tetanus in vaccinated children is nonexistant.</b><br><br>
In this report there exists a whopping FIVE children under 19 who reported tetanus infection.<br><br>
2 of those 5 were vaccinated. 3 weren't.<br><br>
What makes the vaccinated children "non-existant" and the unvaccinated children a national emergency? Semantics.<br><br>
If you want to agree that reported unvaccinated children are just as NON-EXISTANT than I'll concede.

 

[attachedmamaof3]

Additionally, the fatal cases for the under 20 age group was exactly ZERO.<br><br>
Good job pulling in all the stats on the older/diabetic/high risk/IV drug user population though. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll">

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>dymanic</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">No. I was expressing my opinion that the evidence speaks for itself. If you look at what happened to tetanus incidence following the introduction of a vaccine against it in the 1940's, I don't see how you could conclude anything but that the vaccine was responsible for the decline.</div>
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Well, the vaccne is effective, but there were about 500 cases a year in the 1940's, right? Now we have about 50 a year.<br><br>
Now we have antibiotics, OSHA to make working safer, better access to medical care for wounds, etc.<br><br>
The CDC thinks the vax brought it down as well as...<br><br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00053713.htm</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">(TIG) for postexposure prophylaxis in wound treatment, and c) improved wound care management. In addition, increased rural to urban migration (2), with consequent decreased exposure to tetanus spores, may have contributed to the decline in tetanus mortality noted during the first half of the century.</td>
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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Don't see why it would.</td>
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Why do you think people with diabetes are more prone to get tetanus?<br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/news/docs/hcp_materials.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/news/docs/hcp_materials.htm</a><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Reported tetanus is about 3 times more common in people with diabetes and fatalities are about 4 times more common.</td>
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<a href="http://natamcancer.org/page183.html" target="_blank">http://natamcancer.org/page183.html</a><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">How does diabetes affect the body? If the blood sugar (glucose) is not controlled, it can lead to a number of complications:</td>
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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Poor circulation<br><br>
Poor circulation prevents nutrients and oxygen from reaching the cells to help heal wounds and infections.<br>
Cells without oxygen or nutrients die.</td>
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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Poor circulation and infections<br><br>
A cut or wound will not heal well or quickly if there is high blood sugar The germs feed off the sugar and multiply.<br>
The damaged blood vessels are not able to transport enough infection-fighting cells, natural antibodies, antibiotic medicine or nutrition to the wound to heal well.</td>
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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>dymanic</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Tetanus isn't contagious between hosts, so I don't see how you can even speak meaningfully about attack rate.</div>
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Since when does "attack rate" only refer to contagious diseases?<br><a href="http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/28/2/296" target="_blank">http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi...tract/28/2/296</a><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Ok, you got me there. What are those rates?</td>
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I can't find the fulltext of the IOM ruling, so I don't know. The actual rate is probably unknown, anyway.

 

[dymanic]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10314144"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">What makes the vaccinated children "non-existant" and the unvaccinated children a national emergency?</div>
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I never said it was a national emergency, and nathansmum didn't express any concerns about that when she started the thread. She wants to know how much to worry about tetanus with the wound she described. All of us here pretty much agree that she shouldn't worry about it too much. I know I never have, but then all of my kids were vaccinated.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If you want to agree that reported unvaccinated children are just as NON-EXISTANT than I'll concede.</td>
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If you want to agree that <i>unvaccinated children</i> are practically nonexistent, <i>I'll</i> concede. Actually, I pretty much did that already when I said:<br><br>
"<i>Had the child been vaccinated, the risk would be effectively zero. As it is, it may not be much greater than that</i>"<br><br>
and I'm quite comfortable with the advice I followed that with, which is the only advice I'm prepared to offer:<br><br>
"<i>it's the sort of call that should really be made by a doctor</i>"

 

[attachedmamaof3]

Egad.