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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone,<br>
We selectively and delayed vaxing my 13mo old. Next week, however, we will be travelling to the Philippines, a measles-endemic country.<br>
I have called all the doctors in the area and none carry the measles-only vaccine. I am quite leery of giving the MMR vax to my son who is so young. Right now, my stand is to not vax at all but I am slowly wavering on it as the departure date looms. I really need some advice. Pro or anti-vax, are all welcome.<br>
Any thoughts?
 

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no way would i get the MMR, ESPECIALLY all together.<br><br>
if no one carries seperate vaccines i would order them.<br>
however,<br><a href="http://www.womensarticles.com/article_64874_23.html" target="_blank">measles vaccine undeniably linked to autism.</a>
 

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GrumpyBear, since you are traveling next week, it is too late to vaccinate your son and develope a protective titre. Also, there is no undeniable link between the measles vaccine and autism. Here is a link to the CDC site for the Phllippines:<br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/travel/seasia.htm#vaccines" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/travel/seasia.htm#vaccines</a><br>
There are no required vaccines for entry but numerous precautions. Have a great and safe trip.<br><br>
SM
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>nataliachick7</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8193323"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">no way would i get the MMR, ESPECIALLY all together.<br><br>
if no one carries seperate vaccines i would order them.<br>
however,<br><a href="http://www.womensarticles.com/article_64874_23.html" target="_blank">measles vaccine undeniably linked to autism.</a></div>
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Here is a more balanced article about the study you are referring to (which has yet to be published): <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=388887&in_page_id=1770" target="_blank">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The Department of Health insisted the latest study had no validity because control groups were not used.<br><br>
'The same investigation in Dr Wakefield's own laboratories showed no evidence of measles virus in bowel tissue from autistic children,' said a spokesman.<br><br>
'Several properly conducted studies that include control groups, have failed to find measles virus persisting in the blood cells of autistic children.</td>
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Here is one such study: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16555271" target="_blank">J Med Virol. 2006 May;78(5):623-30.</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">This study failed to substantiate reports of the persistence of measles virus in autistic children with development regression.</td>
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Nothing in science is "undeniable". <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Trillian</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8195264"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Nothing in science is "undeniable". <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"></div>
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I do wish the regular medical folks and the journalists would get clear on that. I've seen about 15 studies now, all conclusively proving that vaccines and autism are <b>totally not connected</b>...and for every single such study I've seen an analysis showing serious errors in the methodology, the analysis or some other aspect of said study. And every single study is presented as solid "undeniable" proof, guaranteed to shut off all further discussion on the topic.<br><br>
So, what do you think is causing the inflammation found in the intestines of some autistic children? And what would be appropriate treatment?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate it.<br><b>pigpokey</b>, i do give my son cod liver oil and i take cod liver oil as well (I'm still breastfeeding, btw) but I'm gonna google away. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br>
Any more thoughts/replies are still welcome. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Deborah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8195367"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">And every single study is presented as solid "undeniable" proof, guaranteed to shut off all further discussion on the topic.</div>
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Interesting. I can't think of a single example of a paper presented in that way. The hallmark of good science is reproducibility, therefore all scientists that I know welcome further investigation because they <i>want</i> their results to be shown to be reproducible. I suspect the difference in our observations must reflect a difference in attitude towards the scientific literature and perhaps scientists in general.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">So, what do you think is causing the inflammation found in the intestines of some autistic children? And what would be appropriate treatment?</td>
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I do wish I had all the answers, but as even the experts in the field do not agree, it would be rather presumptuous of me to pull an answer out of a hat for you.
 

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No Trillian, it wasn't the scientists who presented it that way. It was governmental agencies and journalists who did the spin. But the scientists didn't call them on it, either.<br><br>
So glad you know when you don't know.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>grumpybear</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8211868"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">By the way, I also got measles as a child and I'm still breastfeeding. Does that make any difference?</div>
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Not at 13 months, by 9 months old, maternal immunity for measles is conveyed to only about 3% of children.<br><br>
SM
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8213460"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Not at 13 months, by 9 months old, maternal immunity for measles is conveyed to only about 3% of children.<br><br>
SM</div>
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Source?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Deborah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8213496"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Source?</div>
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Here is one source on measles immunity in infants:<br><br>
"Seroprevalence of IgG antibodies against measles, mumps and rubella in Swiss children during the first 16 months of life."<br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed" target="_blank">Schweiz Med Wochenschr. 2000 Oct 14;130(41):1479-86.</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The following seroprevalence rates for IgG antibodies were found (measles/mumps/rubella): 0-3 months 97%/62%/91%; > 3-6 months 40%/2%/42%; > 6-9 months 4%/2%/10%; > 9-12 months 2%/0%/12%; > 12-16 months 0%/7%/7%.</td>
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Deborah,<br><br>
Passive immunity to measles in the breastmilk and cord blood of some nigerian subjects. Source: Journal of Tropical Pediatrics [0142-6338] Oyedele yr:2005 vol:51 iss:1 pg:45 -8<br><br>
Transplacentally acquired immunoglobulin G antibodies against measles, mumps, rubella and varicella-zoster virus in preterm and full term newborns. Source: The Pediatric infectious disease journal [0891-3668] Leineweber yr:2004 vol:23 iss:4 pg:361 -3<br><br>
The duration of maternal measles antibodies in children. Source: Journal of Tropical Pediatrics [0142-6338] Kiliç yr:2003 vol:49 iss:5 pg:302 -5<br><br>
Immunity against measles in populations of women and infants in Poland. Source: Vaccine [0264-410X] Janaszek yr:2003 vol:21 iss:21-22 pg:2948 -53<br><br>
SM
 

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Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks again. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Well, I am puzzled about the measles immunity and babies. Because, in practice, back in the 1940s and 1950s and so on, babies rarely got measles. So if it wasn't the antibodies, what was it?<br><br>
To give a very concrete example:<br>
I was, I think, eight when I caught measles. My entire family, 7 people, was living in a two-room apartment in Patterson, NJ. Two adults, 5 children. My two older brothers, had, of course, already had measles. My younger siblings were roughly, three and one at the time. <span style="color:#FF0000;">Neither of them caught measles.</span> This is a highly infectious disease. According to all the studies cited, neither of them should have had any immunity whatsoever. The conditions made it completely impossible to protect them from exposure.<br><br>
I do remember (vaguely) children catching measles during my childhood. It wasn't considered a big thing. I don't remember ever hearing of a baby coming down with measles. Must have happened, but it seems to have been very rare.<br><br>
Perhaps antibodies are not the only factor here? Perhaps there is some other sort of immunity involved that we don't know about, that is passed from mother to infant?<br><br>
Honestly puzzled.<br><br>
Oh, and I'm sure both of my younger siblings got measles eventually, but it wasn't a big enough event to stick in my mind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
^Puzzled about the same thing. We (me and my siblings) weren't vaxed at all (my mom just failed to think about it) except for the "mandatory" vaxes done in school (like BCG). I got the measles at 6yo, none of my siblings did. My brother got the mumps and the rest of us didn't. With chickenpox, I think we all got it. And we did live in the Philippines at that time too. I remember feeling so awful with my sister gently forcing me to eat (I'm rarely too sick to eat :p). But that's about it.
 

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Deborah- This is just speculation, but do you think that you mother could have taken special measures (but not so severe that they would have inconvenienced you) to protect the babies? E.g. extra viligance in hand-washing, not letting you kids go in the babies' area, etc.? I know you think they could not have been protected, but I'm not talking about quarantine- and you were, after all, eight, and sick with the measles.<br><br>
Grumpybear: Have a wonderful trip. I would say, I'm in an area where measles is an increasing problem. My daughter is not vaccinated yet, but we'll be doing it at one year. However, as far as your situation goes, you need to consider whether or not you will have access to treatment facilities and evacuation should your child fall ill with complications, if he is not vaccinated. Yes, complications are exceedingly rare but what makes them fatal is usually a weakened immune system and/or lack of access to adequate care. So if you are not vaccinating, then you absolutely do need to make sure that you can at least get treated.<br><br>
Of course, this is all just-in-case, totally unlikely, make-you-feel better type stuff. I wouldn't worry about it. You can always avoid a house where they have measles. They'll understand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thank you <b>izobelle</b>. We do have access to good hospitals and doctors and I will be taking extra precautions in ensuring that my son has a healthy immune system as well as striving to be in clean environments. Thank you for the well-wishes and advice. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 
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