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Discussion Starter #1
I've been reading, and I don't want it to be true. This is the 2nd time in 6 months that I feel like I'm reading something so true that it is turning my world upside down. The first was when my reading led me to question the ethics of adults controlling children. Now, it's about the roles of fats and carbs in nutrition and health.<br><br>
In both cases, I've been able to not jump to conclusions too hastily, keeping my husband just a few steps behind me. He's made great strides in giving DD information instead of ordering her around, and while he's still on the "government plan" for diet (though he's doing almost all real foods), he's nearing the end of his weight-loss goal and announced a couple days ago that he's switching to whole milk.<br><br>
In both cases, I feel like I'm converting to a new religion, finding something so true that I never knew before, but now I want everyone to know how we've been wrong all along! Unlike most things in a religion, there's SCIENCE to back this up, so it's not a matter of your faith and mine. It's that we have been LIED TO about what science says, and people who don't know any better have perpetuated the myth.<br><br>
It's hard enough for me to watch how most people treat their children and to listen to bad diet advice being given, but I control how my child is treated in most cases, and my husband and daughter and I are all relatively healthy. I don't like controversy, and I don't want to tell people how to live their lives. I'll give information where I have an opening and defend myself if I'm criticized, but that's about where it ends.<br><br>
In what I'm learning about diet, it's crossed the line where I have to talk to my dad. He's fighting high cholesterol and heart disease with a low fat diet, and he's not really winning. He also suffers from neuropathy (nerves dying) in his feet, something that usually only happens to diabetics, and nobody has been able to help him. I'm beginning to wonder if the two are related to his high-carb, moderate-processed food, won't-touch-butter-with-a-ten-foot-pole diet.<br><br>
I do want to allow him to make his own decisions about his health, but I want him to have the information. Certainly, he can't just read everything I've been reading. I'm not even sure he'd read a whole book. (He may be ADD as well. Yes, I know. Also possibly related.) Is there something short but reputable I could have him read, or how might I go about talking to him? I talk a lot more often with my mom (Dad's not great on the phone), so if it needs to be a slowly plant a seed thing, it's probably going to have to go through her, which may lose a lot of its effectiveness. What do you all think?
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"> and welcome.<br><br>
I hate to say it. I think most of us whose parents don't eat this way, face a heartbreak period of watching our parents fight the illness/problems that come with their carb and sugar heavy fat free diets, while ignoreing what we know might help them. Go ahead and try to tell then about it, give them books to read, it might work. When it comes down to it though, I'd say most of us have given up trying to reform our parent's diet, because of the strain it put on our relationship. I don't think you CAN change your parents diet, unless they really want to and are very open to it.
 

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I agree with Caroline: Go slowly, gently, and understand that your best efforts might fail.<br><br>
That said, I posted two possibly useful links in <a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=15381335&postcount=3" target="_blank">this post</a> the other day.<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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just to make this new info even more confusing when comparing info to conventional wisdom, there is evidence that cholesterol levels may not be indicitive of anything significant, health wise, and high cholesterol levels may not corelate at all with deaths from heart disease. according to this heart doc, <a href="http://www.heartscanblog.blogspot.com" target="_blank">www.heartscanblog.blogspot.com</a> its the dense ldl thats the problem, and the high triglycerides which indicate a high carb intake (which even the ada admits causes high trigs), not neccessarily the overall numbers.<br><br>
all that info is something you have found and believe to be true. this doesnt mean youll be able to sell someone you care about on the "crazy" idea that eating a ton of crackers, whole grain pastas and sweets is causing the problems they think theyre preventing. my mother is pre-diabetic and believes she needs to eat very low levels of calories to lose weight. the weight isnt falling off but she tells me that she believes in eating low cal, low sat fat. i email her articles, from reputeable sources and she tells me she never reads them, lol. im learning to stop thinking im going to save anyone and just let people do what they want. i get to live my life, my parents live thiers. we care deeply about eachother but were all adults and we make our own paths and choices.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the support, Magelet. My parents are pretty supportive of my diet, but I've only talked about it in terms of what is best for me, not what might be best for them. My mom seems to think that I'm a special case since I have a super high metabolism, I'm breastfeeding a toddler, and I'm trying to keep my weight from dropping much lower than 120 lbs (I'm 5' 7"). I'm in my 20's not my 50's, and I'm not battling heart disease. I can use the calories, and I am eating a lot of calories because I do need them, but I'm not eating the fat to get the calories. I'm getting my calories from fat instead of carbs.<br><br>
I don't feel like I have to change my parents' diet as long as they respect mine, but I couldn't live with myself if something happened to my dad, and I knew that I withheld information that could have changed the outcome.<br><br>
Ms. B. Sprout, those articles are actually part of what I read that helped push me over the edge. Maybe I'll e-mail them to my parents and ask them what they think about them. They are several years old, though. Do you know of anything a little more up-to-date? How did the research that he talks about turn out, or is it still going on? I also think that it would take a lot to get past Dr. Atkins' name. I think they kinda see him as the guy who proudly ate fat and had heart disease and claimed that there was no correlation.
 

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Organicmidwestmamma, yeah, i just learned today that "good" cholesterol and "bad" cholesterol are the exact same thing, just attached to different proteins! I would think that the best way to treat it would be to try messing with factors that affect the proteins, not the cholesterol. Apparently, the entire medical community knows better, though... at least they should... Thanks for the link.
 

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Maybe send them <a href="http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/" target="_blank">here</a>? I don't know. Maybe PaNu or Heartscanblog if they need to hear it from an MD?<br><br>
I left a copy of GCBC at my parents' house. And that's all I'm going to do -- no big talk, or even little talk. They asked me about my diet (I've lost 22 pounds, and they noticed) and I gave them GCBC. I am almost 100% sure they'll never open it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shrug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shrug">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Ms. B. Sprout</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15396085"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Maybe send them <a href="http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/" target="_blank">here</a>? I don't know. Maybe PaNu or Heartscanblog if they need to hear it from an MD?<br><br>
I left a copy of GCBC at my parents' house. And that's all I'm going to do -- no big talk, or even little talk. They asked me about my diet (I've lost 22 pounds, and they noticed) and I gave them GCBC. I am almost 100% sure they'll never open it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shrug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shrug"></div>
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i think GCBC (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGood-Calories-Bad-Controversial-Science%2Fdp%2F1400033462%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1273618682%26sr%3D1-1" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-...3618682&sr=1-1</a>) is an amazing read, but it is very very long, very scientific and not written in simple, average-person-in-the-united-states-speaking language. i am still plugging away at it. i wish there was an "idiots guide" version! not that it shouldnt be available as is, just it would be nice to have a short and sweet <i>smaller</i> tome to hand to someone interested in dietary theories. marksdaily apple is fantastic but people who arent into athletics and fitness might be a bit scarred away, even though i realize mark isnt only about fitness by any means.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>JMJ</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15395911"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Organicmidwestmamma, yeah, i just learned today that "good" cholesterol and "bad" cholesterol are the exact same thing, just attached to different proteins! I would think that the best way to treat it would be to try messing with factors that affect the proteins, not the cholesterol. Apparently, the entire medical community knows better, though... at least they should... Thanks for the link.</div>
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what protiens are you refering to? im confused on this...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>organicmidwestmama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15396277"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">i think GCBC (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FGood-Calories-Bad-Controversial-Science%2Fdp%2F1400033462%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1273618682%26sr%3D1-1" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-...3618682&sr=1-1</a>) is an amazing read, but it is very very long, very scientific and not written in simple, average-person-in-the-united-states-speaking language. i am still plugging away at it. i wish there was an "idiots guide" version! not that it shouldnt be available as is, just it would be nice to have a short and sweet <i>smaller</i> tome to hand to someone interested in dietary theories. marksdaily apple is fantastic but people who arent into athletics and fitness might be a bit scarred away, even though i realize mark isnt only about fitness by any means.</div>
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I totally hear you -- I am a bit more than halfway through GCBC myself -- whew! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> And I know Mark Sisson isn't for everyone.<br><br>
Bigger picture: I think that if a person isn't interested in learning, they'll reject whatever source is offered . . . which is why I am not really "working" on my parents as such. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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I'm kind of in the same boat with my MIL. I would love to tell her all about TF and what I think it could do for her many (very serious) health problems, but I just don't think she would listen to me about it. She lives on salad and chicken breasts and artificial sweeteners and I wish I could just tell her a few small things she could change. I have somewhat resigned myself to the fact that she will make her own choices, but I still can't help but think I should do more to talk to her about it. It's just so hard to figure out how to approach it so she doesn't think I am criticizing her, just sharing information with her. I do think I will let me FIL borrow Nourishing Traditions, though, since he has expressed interest in it, and maybe he will be able to share information with her more effectively than me.
 

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Oh, I'll join you all. I can't offer advice, just commiseration. My mom is a nurse and health educator and has always "fed us well." I DO appreciate her attitudes toward food, diet and eating, BUT, Dad has high cholesterol, familial heart attack risk...you know the story. She's had him on a low-fat, moderate sugar diet for eons. I don't think his cholesterol has budged. He HAS lost 20 lbs in 6 mos. He is VERY thin, has no appetite.<br><br>
Like you, OP, Mom thinks my diet is ok for me. I too, struggle to stay above 120 lbs at 5'7" and breastfeeding. She is quietly horrified that I serve them bacon and sausage and make everything with coconut oil when they visit. I so wish she would stop leaving gallons of skim milk and half-eaten cartons of low-fat ice cream in my freezer when they leave! Just drink/eat the real stuff, dammit!<br><br><a href="http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Whole Health Source blog</a> is a great source - scientist who reviews the science. I keep wanting to send it to my mom and ask her to read it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>organicmidwestmama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15396284"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">what protiens are you refering to? im confused on this...</div>
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Lipoprotein, not just protein, sorry.<br><br>
From <span style="text-decoration:underline;">The Family Nutrition Book</span> by Sears and Sears (Nice and politically correct), footnote on pg 24:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The cholesterol that is attached to the LDL's is actually the same as the cholesterol that is joined to the HDL's. There are not two different kinds of cholesterol, "good" and "bad." These terms are used to refer to the possibly helpful or harmful effects of the lipoprotein-cholesterol combination.</td>
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I have GCBC on hold at the library and am looking forward to reading it. Hopefully, it will be back by the time I'm done with the 10-15 books I checked out the other night. I was trying to get a broad sample of ideas to let the politically correct side have a fair chance with my mind and to refute the other ideas I'm coming across. Hence the Sears book. Marks Daily Apple is an interesting read, but I think it would scare my parents off. I'm not even grain free, and to do so, I would have to either be convinced that I'm a special case that has to be grain free or that the world's growing population could be fed well without it. In the meantime, I'm just working for moderate amounts of well-prepared whole grains.<br><br>
ASusan, I was able to navigate my parents' last visit alright. I bought my dad some fresh squeezed orange juice, and DH was still on 2% milk, which my dad put up with since he only has milk on cereal. I had just made a huge batch of granola a few months ago when DD got a cavity, and I found out about phytic acid and went TF. My parents' visit was already planned, so I threw the granola in the freezer for them. I made a couple extra loaves of sourdough bread and saved the breasts off a roast chicken for my dad to use as lunch meats. Dinners were wild salmon and grassfed beef (which I explained was naturally lower in fat since the cows exercise and also higher in "good" fats). I'm glad it worked to find a compromise. We're visiting them next, and I hope they'll respect that I need eggs for breakfast and don't want MSG (My mom puts seasoning salt on everything) in my dinner.
 

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I've tried educating my grandmother on certain things, and she's stated straight out that what she eats has worked for her this long, she's not going to change it. Even though she's on cholesterol meds, blood pressure meds, reflux meds, is constantly complaining of stomach problems or her weight, etc. She's not even willing to hear about it - she'll stick with her processed foods, TYVM. This will come to a head when little boy starts eating solids, I'm sure, since on my last visit the dinner she prepared was full of trans-fats and white flour and not much else. But in the meantime, I just grit my teeth as she starts on her round of complaints.
 

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sorry to say but I don't think you can win this one<br><br>
we are dealing with the same type of thing (and this is with a well educated person!!!) and we have found-<br><br>
#1 you don't have an <b>MD</b> behind your name and that get thrown in our face all the time "well how would you know??" -----AHHHHHHHHH!!<br><br>
#2 Dr.'s are <i>gods</i> to some-this seems to be of a certain generation--"but my Dr. told me this or he didn't say that to me"---AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!<br><br>
#3 no matter what you have them read it only says in as far as the <span style="text-decoration:underline;">next</span> morning show-----"I saw this on the To- show and they said this and you are saying that-so I WON't trust you--I TRUST miss Perky"-----AHHHHHHHH!!!!!<br><br>
#4 the LOW fat market-----it is sooo hard for us to get how a generation that is educated and knows how marketing is done still refuses to except they are being played to!!!!!!! "the commercial says it's good for me---and the govt. says to eat this too---you have to be crazy to want me to eat FAT"------AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br><br>
there really seems no way to win<br><br>
we have given email and books and talked and talked and are still told we are DEAD WRONG--"how could that be??"<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>JMJ</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15398106"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I have GCBC on hold at the library and am looking forward to reading it. Hopefully, it will be back by the time I'm done with the 10-15 books I checked out the other night. I was trying to get a broad sample of ideas to let the politically correct side have a fair chance with my mind and to refute the other ideas I'm coming across. Hence the Sears book. Marks Daily Apple is an interesting read, but I think it would scare my parents off. I'm not even grain free, and to do so, I would have to either be convinced that I'm a special case that has to be grain free or that the world's growing population could be fed well without it. ...</div>
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ah yes, the grains feed the poor thing; definitly find The Vegetarian Myth if youre interested in exploring the many reasons why grains are harming the environment and to hear other options besides the starving massess needing grains. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FVegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability%2Fdp%2F1604860804" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myt.../dp/1604860804</a><br><br>
also another good book about agriculture an dgrains that disproves the idea that we need grains to feed the world is Against the Grain. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAgainst-Grain-Agriculture-Hijacked-Civilization%2Fdp%2F0865477132%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1273692521%26sr%3D1-1" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...3692521&sr=1-1</a>
 

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Discussion Starter #18
serenbat, sorry to hear you've had such a negative experience. I hope to not get to that point, but I fully expect them to say that while my diet may be great for me, they have different dietary needs, and they'll respect what I eat and want me to respect what they eat.<br><br>
I'm reading some more before I try to send them a few short pieces of really convincing information. I'll probably e-mail them both a couple websites broaching the subject, and then I'll continue with talks with my mom to invite her into my quest. "I read this crazy idea the other day that fat doesn't cause heart disease. Carbs do! I'm trying to figure out whether or not it's true." Really, that's what my quest started with, and maybe it would help to invite them in on it and maybe back up a few steps so that they can watch me finding new information. I find that helps me because I can side with their concerns: "Yeah, I know lots of people talk about how saturated fat is supposed to raise your bad cholesterol. I wonder what the science really says." and then come back with some information on studies.<br><br>
I feel like I almost know enough to give it a shot... even if it ends in just deciding to respect each other's diets.
 

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I'm trying to do this same sort of thing for my in-laws. My FIL is extremely unhealthy, and my MIL reads tons of stuff and doesn't know where to start--not that she'll admit it. But she can't believe that a high fat, low carb diet is even okay, even though I eat tons of vegetables. Sigh. I'll keep plugging away though...
 

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My mom called me out of the blue today. She had read in the newspaper that her antacids might be decreasing her calcium absorption and wanted to know if that's related to soaking grains (if there was phytic acid in her antacids). After I explained that she needs stomach acid to absorb the calcium (as I explained to her a year ago, and she thought it wasn't a big deal, but when the newspaper has an article about it.... ok... I'll stop ranting) and reviewed with her how to soak grains since she's interested in trying it (since I got her hooked on straining some of the whey out of yogurt for a creamier texture, and now she's got all this whey that she doesn't know what to do with), I brought up that I'd heard that high levels of carbs are bad for your heart. When I said that they especially are a problem with raising triglycerides, she exclaimed, "Well, that's what your dad really has a problem with!"<br><br>
She's not sure if my dad would be willing to consider changing his diet again, but she's going to talk to him about it. From listening to her talk, she's obviously trying to reconcile him eating low-fat and low-carb, but she's open to sauteing veggies in olive oil and soaking grains. She still thinks that eggs and butter are bad, but she's convinced that he'd be better off if he removed sugar. I'm just concerned that when she brings it up with him, poor dad is going to feel like he shouldn't eat anything at all, or he's going to be hurting himself. I'm e-mailing her Ms. Sprout's articles, and maybe if she makes it through those, she won't think that fat is quite as bad. Dad doesn't research things, so I think going through Mom is my best bet.<br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>organicmidwestmama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15399197"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">ah yes, the grains feed the poor thing; definitly find The Vegetarian Myth if youre interested in exploring the many reasons why grains are harming the environment and to hear other options besides the starving massess needing grains. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FVegetarian-Myth-Food-Justice-Sustainability%2Fdp%2F1604860804" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Myt.../dp/1604860804</a><br><br>
also another good book about agriculture an dgrains that disproves the idea that we need grains to feed the world is Against the Grain. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAgainst-Grain-Agriculture-Hijacked-Civilization%2Fdp%2F0865477132%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1273692521%26sr%3D1-1" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...3692521&sr=1-1</a></div>
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I fully acknowledge that my world is turning upside down, and anything could be true. Right now, the question of my life is what to do about fats. I do think my next question is what about grains. I'd say that I'm looking for a world view of how everyone in the world could get good nutrition, and I do know enough to know that grains is not a great way to get nutrients. I know that there is land that is better used for growing things and land that is better used for raising animals, and we would be best served if we could get the most nutrients and calories as we can based on the land/climates we have. I don't know if grains can be, should be, or need to be part of that yet, but I'm open to finding out. The Vegetarian Myth is on hold for me at the library. My library doesn't have Against the Grain yet.<br><br>
Also, the one thing I don't know how to argue with my mom about is that calorie for calorie, grain is the cheapest. She admitted to carb-loading meals because it's cheaper. They would have a hard time affording organic vegetables or grassfed meat. They're the most frugal people I know, and they're barely scraping by, putting enough extra money away for a trip to see their granddaughter once a year (mostly paid for with gift money from us and instead of buying us gifts). The reality is that even though the heart surgeon costs far more, he will let you pay him off over time, but you have to have the money for the groceries now. I sure hope she decides eggs aren't the devil...
 
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