[stafl]

Okay, I *could* post threads in probably six different forums, but since the problem is all inter-connected, thought I'd lump it together and post here instead...

My Jenny recently turned three. She is and always has been your typical "spirited" child, very intense, sensitive, and now most of all, difficult!

Lately, it has been harder and harder to deal with her moods. Especially the screaming fit throwing, iykwim. She throws a huge fit every time she wants to nurse, just will not ask nicely to nurse no matter how much we talk about it. When she calms down enough to talk about it, she will tell me that the fit was just because she wanted to nurse, and not really whatever the screaming was about. She had been nursing once a day, sometimes skipping days, but now wants to nurse at least three or four times a day, which means three or four blow-out scream-at-the-top-of-her-lungs huge fits!

: (okay, I did post a question about this particular problem in extended breastfeeding forum)

She throws a fit when I change her diaper, she throws a fit when I try to feed her, she throws a fit no matter what I do it seems. She refuses to sit on the potty, most of the time, but every now and then she wants to. She no longer tells me when she's wet, and if I leave her in a wet diaper for just ten minutes, she starts to get a rash. So she throws a fit because her bottom hurts. She has even started hitting and kicking me, which I cannot under any circumstances allow. she tells me she doesn't love me, she tells me to go away, that she doesn't want me to be her mommy anymore. I think this hurts more than anything else.

Right now our biggest problem is with bedtime. DH works 2nd shift, which makes it a lot harder. When he worked days, it wasn't so bad. But now she will not go to sleep until after Daddy comes home (11pm), and I don't know when the last time was when I got to bed before 3am. We've tried everything we can possibly think of, and nothing has helped get her to bed earlier. Tried waking her up early, that just means she takes a long nap in the afternoon. Tried waking her up early from her nap, that just means a screaming child until bedtime, I'm talking six hours of constant screaming fit throwing. Tried not letting her have a nap at all.... big mistake! So now I'm trying to let her sleep as late in the morning as she wants, hoping she'll skip the nap and go to bed earlier. I have my doubts this will work either, but I gotta keep trying things until I find something that does work.

Please help! I'm losing my mind with all this screaming and ugliness. Sometimes the fit will last for hours! She can be the sweetest, most wonderful child I've ever seen. And she can be the worst, most irritating person on the face of the earth! DH and I have been fighting because of it, or maybe because of the lack of sleep... our whole life is seriously affected by this and I don't know what else to do. I know without a doubt that changing my parenting ways is not the answer - even though there are those who would have me beat her into submission, break her will, I can't do that to my child. People (in-laws mostly) are blaming the extended breastfeeding (which is the only thing that seems to actually help), blaming co-sleeping, gentle discipline, etc. basically telling me that I created this monster and that it's all because of how I parent her. DH is starting to question the AP way of doing things, he just can't believe that it's just her personality and not something we are doing tragically wrong.

I have ordered Raising Your Spirited Child and it should be here later this week, but I need some suggestions how to deal with this *now*

We do use a modified time-out, where she sits in my lap and I hold her until she calms down. I will not leave her alone to cry it out. I will not punish her for feeling angry or sad. I just need to know how to teach her a better way of dealing with her feelings besides throwing a huge fit, especially now that it's gotten to the point of her acting out violently (and where did this come from? I have been so careful to not act violently when I'm angry because of the violent discipline my father used on me). She's very verbal, and has no problem talking about her feelings, but it's always after the fit that she can talk about it and tell me what's wrong.

I also think it's partly diet-related. She is very sensitive to certain foods, in particular dairy and sugar, and things are much much worse when she's had too much of that sort of stuff to eat.

What can I do? Before I had kids of my own, I always thought that tantrums were the parents' fault for being too indulgent with their kids. But she does not get whatever she wants just because she throws a fit about it, just the opposite. Yet, the fits are getting worse and worse.

 

[mamacate]

I don't have much advice, but I just want to say that I have similar struggles at my house. The spirited child book should help. You might also want to look into "The Happiest Toddler On The Block." I posted about it in the toddler forum, and I got kinda flamed about it (just by one person), but the idea is to reflect their feelings back to them in very simple language, using an emotive tone of voice "you want it...you really want it now! You want it you want it you want it!!!!" The theory is that even verbal kids regress when overhwelmed by emotion (tantruming), and you need to validate their feelings but with simple words and tone of voice, not long sentences and rationality. I haven't had a ton of success with it with my kids, but it does help sometimes. I just try to ignore all the overt/implied criticism of EN and AP when people scowl at my kids tantruming, and I just accept tantrums as a normal part of toddlerhood. When people tell me that their kids have a lot of tantrums, meaning one a day, it always blows my mind. A one tantrum day would be the most mellow day in history. I'm sure it's happened--I just can't remember it recently!

The great thing about the Spirited Child book is that it helps you to accept your child for who she is, not who your in-laws think she should be, LOL. She also shows how some of the really challenging parts of her temperament now will serve her well through life (like persistence, energy, etc.).

One other thing--this is a lot of advice from someone who didn't have any, LOL, is to check out the book "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be." I don't have a lot of specific references, but it was written by an adult survivor of abuse, and it does have a really compassionate approach, and as an survivor myself, it helped me. My DS hit, kicked, and bit a TON during his second year, and it really pushed my buttons. It's tough stuff.

(((HUGS))),

Cate

 

[iris0110]

I just wanted to offer you a

I have a spirited toddler as well. He will be three in August, but this has been going on for us for about a year now. I have a few things that may help you, but I may get flamed for some of my suggestions so here goes.

: First with bed time. Ds goes through months sometimes where he won't go to bed at all. We believe he just has an irregular biological clock, and so he just isn't tired at the same time all of the time. In order to deal with this we instituted a bedtime ritual. Part of his problem is being able to calm himself at bedtime, so first we feed the fish, and then we brush our teeth, and then he lays in bed with us and watches Anime music videos. Now the videos might work another child up, but they relax Ds. So when the videos are over we turn off the tv and go to sleep. Ds can stay awake if he wants, and we alow him to have certain toys and one board book in bed to look at, but usually he gets board after half an hour and falls asleep as well. This has been working really well, and sometimes he even falls asleep during the videos. I get him up at the same time every day, even if he doesn't want to, and then nap time is at the same time every day. This has helped him regulate his body. I also give him a snack about half an hour before bed so his tummy doesn't wake him up during the night.

Ok now fit throwing. Ds is a master of the fit, and the more I try to help him get through him the worse they get. i finally discovered that he was throwing fits to let off steam. Now I will say that Ds has a speach delay and there fore has no real way of expressing himself. So sometimes he gets so frustrated that he just has to blow of some steam. If I try to hold him or reassure him it makes him angrier, and he will hit and kick at me. So I have developed a system to help him calm down. When he starts throwing a tantrum because he is angry or hasn't gotten his way I pick him up and take him to the giant comfy chair in our living room. I give him his special Boohbah toy and I tell him it is time to calm down. I sit on the couch across from him and wait while he cuddles the Boohbah and gets all his screaming out. Then he climbs out of the chair and we hug each other. Then we go back to playing. Sometimes I will tell him that there is something special we will do, like build a train track, or play on pbskids.org when he calms down. Sometimes this gets his interest enough that he forgets what he is mad about and sometimes it doesn't. There have been times when just my being in the room makes him angrier so I will go into the hall where i can see him but he can't see me, without an audience his tantrum isnt' as much fun. Now I don't want you to misunderstand me, I am always there for him when he needs reassurance. If he is upset or hurt I will hug him and soothe him in any way that I can, but I have found that sometimes he just needs a chance to get the anger out, and trying to hold him at those times just upsets him more. I try to incourage him to get it all out whenever he needs to. I wish he could use his words, but that just isn't an option for him.

I want you to know that this isn't your fault. Your daughter just has this temperament, and through your guidance she will hopefully learn to control it herself. It is really hard being the parent of a spirited child, but it can be rewarding too. The hard part is the ugliness and the fact that they are such wonderful and driven children with so much beauty in them, but then they turn around and melt down on the floor kicking and screaming. I really believe that the attachment Ds and I have from co-sleeping and ebfing and just being together has really helped us get through it. I have learned to read his cues and to try to understand what is causing the meltdowns. Unfortunately there is no way to avoid every melt down, but if you have noticed certain triggers than you can do your best to avoid those. Maybe you could cut out dairy and sugar almost all together. And maybe you could offer nursing instead of waiting for her to ask. I hope some of this helps you some. I know sometimes it is just good to know that you are not the only one dealing with this, and it doesn't mean that you have done something wrong.

 

[PikkuMyy]

I work with a boy with autism, and we've done a similar thing to Shannon. When he reaches a certain point where he's had too many demands, or something normally small and not bothersome has set him above his limit, we do "relax". We have a PECs icon (he uses picture communication symbols to communicate along with language) and at the beginning, I would put it on his schedule and we'd go to his bed where I'd sit with him but not make any demands - no talking, no touching, nothing. He would be the one to initiate any interaction.

We do this every day when he isn't upset to reinforce the point of the activity - he's in control and he can decide how much interaction we have.

So when he's upset, I first had to prompt him to give me the relax symbol but now he'll do it on his own. Then he'll decide (I let him show me because "relax" means no demands for language) where he wants to do it. I'll sit near or far depending on how upset he is and I only intervene if he is doing something dangerous like banging the wall. He can have pillows and a blanket to wrap up in or squeeze. As he calms down, I make myself available - I move closer, put my hand out (his most relaxing activity is being softly stroked with fingernails on his skin, we call it "tickles".) make some eye contact and wait for him to want to be tickled, cuddle, etc.

This has made a HUGE difference in the amount of time he tantrums and our interactions. It lets him know that it is safe and OK to be upset but that he has to do it with someone near. He no longer (most of the time) pushes or kicks at the adult because he knows we won't make any demands. But he knows that we are there FOR him when he is ready for us. When he has calmed down, he can initiate, and the tantrum ends with us doing a happy calm activity together that he has asked for.

I can imagine that this would work with kids who don't have special needs, as well as those that do.

My student's 4 year old sister also has some big "I'm not getting my own way" sort of tantrums but often she'll also go into them without first asking for help or telling what she wants (and she is VERY verbal.) It seems like she needs to get the emotions out and one thing that has helped is for her mother to give her feedback on them and acknowledge them. "You must be very sad that you can't________" or "I can see that you are very upset and I want to help you. When you are feeling better, tell me how I can help."

P.S. One of the best things about having a set activity is that my student can request it BEFORE he gets to total tantrum stage, which helps him feel better earlier and averts a lot of trauma for all.

 

[Dar]

{{{{hugs}}}} I think a lot of it is just riding this out and knowing that it will pass... Rain had some periods at that age when she was tantrumy and awful and I was truly afraid that she would be like that forever... it helped to know that it would end.

I also highly recommend Ross Greene's book "The Explosive Child" - it's very focused on strategies to help children like this, espectfully and proactively.

At this point, I would let got of any issue you can possibly let go of. If she wants to stay up until Dad gets home, fine - she seems to need that right now. If her tantrums are happening when she wants to nurse, she may be having low blood sugar issues, so you could try offering something protein-rich at regular intervals. Actually, offering would piss Rain off, so I would fix something tiny and cute - maybe a cracker with cream cheese and olive eyes and a carrot mouth, just one or two crackers, and put them on a plate and set them near to her.

Maybe you could add some zing to diaper changes, like doing the diaper boogie with each wet diaper, ending in the laundry room, or setting a laundry basket on a high shelf and playing wet diaper basketball (assuming you can wrap and velcro or something so the wet is inside). Might work, might not....

I'd also try to keep life really low-stress for a while, for both of you. If you do tv at all, I think this is a good time for snuggling and watching some favorite videos over and over, or reading the same books. For a while when Rain was 3ish we did a video every afternoon, which sometimes turned into a nap and sometimes was just an hour of down time...

I do think times like this often come when a child is working internally on some big developmental leap...

Dar

 

[kerc]

i think raising your spirited child will really help you understand what's going on and help to find the triggers.

quick ideas I had while reading your post:
1. bedtime. can daddy call to say goodnight? or maybe have a kiss jar (have him kiss a bunch of papers and fold em up and put them in the jar. she pulls one out and gets a kiss from him before bed). talk about what's going on with her -- i.e. daddy's at work, daddy will be here for breakfast and can't wait to see you then.

2. diapers. i have taken to changing erin in the hallway. close all the doors, no toys, nothing to distract. she may read a book while I am changing her diaper and if it isn't poopy I change her standing up. She can pull up her diaper like panties (with help). She also gets to wipe herself with a clean wipe.

also....i'd encourage you to find the positives of her temperament. it sounds like she's very persistent. Which means she sticks to a task at hand. She knows what she wants. Talk about what is going on and encourage her to use words rather than screaming. My dd is prone to banging on the door, screaming when she wants me to open it. I often say "ask mommy to open the door. say "please open mommy"" please is not a word she can say yet, but it usually encourages her to say "mumble open ommy" at which point I praise her for asking.

 

[Piglet68]

I just wanted to send you big hugs....it must be awful to hear your DD saying things like that (even though you know she doesn't mean them!!).

She sounds pretty angry to me. I'm wondering if there is a connection between her behaviour and your DH's switch to 2nd shift: could she be missing him? Feeling to blame for him not being around her as much? Kids get some crazy ideas some times. Maybe something else has happened in your life? Any changes or stressful things going on?

I will say that the food thing might need to be persued more. My BF has a son who, when he was a child, would turn into a monster whenever he got sugar. He didn't have rashes or hives, so nobody would believe her, but she knew when some well-meaning relative (they all thought she was cruel for denying her son sugar) would slip him something b/c he was a nightmare to deal with. No sugar = totally manageable kid.

I am also REALLY sorry that your relatives are trying to blame your parenting. It's so hard when we do unconventional things. If you were already swatting her and beating her down, they wouldn't blame your parenting for her behaviour. You are held up to higher standards b/c you choose to do things differently. Kudos to you for sticking to your guns. I hope this time passes quickly for you, and that you and your daughter can work through this.

 

[stafl]

Thank you so much, everyone, for your thoughtful replies!!

Yesterday was much better. My mom came over and instead of leaving when DD started getting fussy, she stayed all day and we never had a huge blowout. Playing with Oma is Jenny's single most favorite thing in the world to do!

too bad she can't come over every day...
Plus, she only had one cup of Tang, and only one sweet treat all day, and I think that made a world of difference, too.
Jenny didn't have a nap, and went to bed a little earlier than usual (though, still later than I'd like) most importantly, without a fuss! I know that the bedtime ritual with Daddy is very important to her. He gives her a bath every night, and I don't intend to change that even though he'd like it if I somehow managed to get both girls to sleep before he gets home

Yeah, like that's fair to me - NOT! And, good news! When he got home last night, he told me that he has a chance to roll into first shift. He might not be there long, we're both sure that come fall someone with rolling rights over him will want to go back to days (when their kids start school) but right now they would rather work 2nd and make more money...

After typing out my OP, I decided then and there to start working on fixing our diet - for both of us. (sometimes all it takes it to put it in writing, huh?) I have some health issues myself which is daily causing me rather severe pain, and diet has worked to help me in the past. So my plan is to gradually switch to healthier snacks and unsweetened juice, slowing cutting back on the amount of sugar we eat, since we both react severely to too much sugar.
Piglet is right, me being in pain has changed the way and the amount of time I play with her. So fixing our diet should help in more ways than one.

Dar has a good point, too, about it maybe being a developmental leap. I hadn't thought of that, but it's true that she has in the past reacted the same way right before some major milestone, especially with the wanting to nurse more often. Jenny is learning to read. She can type her name and some common words on the computer, though she doesn't have the manual dexterity to write letters on paper yet.

PikkuMyy, too. We do the tickling thing. It's one way that really helps calm her down once the fit starts to subside.

Anyway, you all have given some really good suggestions, some of which do work sometimes, and some which I hadn't thought to try yet. Thanks again, you have all helped more than I can say.

 

[ChristaN]

I don't know that I have any better suggestions than what has been offered thus far, but I did want to offer a bit of a "light at the end of the tunnel." Your description of your dd sounds so much like Angelina, my older dd. My dh thought that there was something wrong with her, that I was doing something wrong & she needed a brain scan to find the problem in her brain. I can't tell you the # of people who told me that I was at fault. It is enough to make you cry when you have a toddler who is screaming, spitting on you, peeing on the floor & trying to choke you (all of which Angelina did as a toddler) & so many people tell you that you have caused the problem.

I do have Raising your Spirited Child, & it is a very good book, but to be honest nothing really made my dd stop behaving like a wild beast totally until she just outgrew it. I have one friend with a daughter who is about 10 yrs older than Angelina & she kept telling me that her dd was the same way & it did get better. That was one of the few things that helped!

Anyway... Angelina will be 6 in August &, although she is still the same person, she has so much better control of herself now. Between the ages of 4 and 5 (closer to 4 than 5), she just bloomed. She became so much better able to know what she was feeling & express it beautifully - not just be overwhelmed by her feelings; she expresses herself so eloquently & is just a wonderful little girl. I am so proud of her. In a recent music performance at her kindergarten, they handed out programs with quotes from all of the kids & most of them said things like, "singing is fun" or "singing makes me happy." Angelina's quote was, "Singing makes my heart soar. It alleviates sad feelings."

One of my friends who was not constantly judging my parenting told me that intense kids who cry a lot are often frustrated with their baby bodies & very intelligent. l do think that this is true with my daughter. It helped me a lot try to empathize with her & be grateful that she was mine b/c she could have been abused by someone with less patience. Unfortunately, I think that I used up all of my patience in her baby & toddler years - I am out

!

It may not be much, but I can offer that it will get better.

 

[siddie]

Part of this is also the age. 3 is WAY worse than 2. If you do a search for 3 year-olds, you will see many similar threads.

It does get better. A little after age 4 they REALLY just want to please you, it is so sweet.

 

[stafl]

Hi everyone! I just have to brag, I think.

reading Raising Your Spirited Child has helped in so many ways, on so many levels. I think *my* biggest problem is that I am a highly spirited adult, but my parents didn't quite deal with it properly when I was a kid, so I never learned how to handle my own emotions. How in the world am I supposed to teach my DD something I don't understand?

Anyway, I am nearly through the entire book, and will have to read it all again, since I'm also one of those "first reaction" and "mood" types she describes as bonus traits.

I think what I needed most was help for *me* in handling her fits, rather than some magic cure for them. That article in Mothering last year about tantrums helped me so much in how I react to them, but it just wasn't quite enough for our situation.

Seems every parenting obstacle I've met so far has always been because I was reacting too strongly in one way or another. And every time, so far, the solution was for me to change my approach rather than trying to change my child. You'd think I'd have it all figured out by now...

 

[LaLa]

i'm glad you are finding some helpful info!

I read that book and some books on sensory integration dysfunction. Both subjects were helpful, and diet can certainly play a HUGE roll in a child's behavior, so do keep on that!
The food issues can disguise themselves too!

keep us posted!

 

[PONOKELAMAMA]

wow, sounds like you were really overwhelmed the other day. we have been there these past 2-3 months and it seems everything is a blow out and everything means tears and everything is wrong. those are the bad days, and they are BAD! on the days i found myself overwhelmed by all the things that are battles, i start to think there has to be something more to the picture. diet is HUGE! we rarely indulge in sugar because both ds and i get sugar lows, not the high. and dh work schedule not only affects ds wanting his dad, but it really throws my mood off and my temperment. they feel everything we feel, and sometimes more, their little hearts are filled with pure unfiltered thoughts! and to just agree with everything that has already been said, raising your spirited child is a wonderful book. actually after reading it, i found ds was actually "spunky" and i was the spirited one. that book helped me identify more my own issues and the way my personality plays out with ds and dh. i was glad the book did not *tell* you what to do, it just offers an understanding which is exactly what i needed on the rough days. also, we have found that the days are getting better and better these past two weeks. i think ds was just transitioning into the three year old stage, as it sounds for you dd is doing the same. this has been the most intense stage yet! yikes! for us when all else fails, we get out our bach flower remedies. ds has a very hard time with change and transition, and there are great remedies out there to help. especially during times when things are to an extent out of your control (dh work schedule).

lastly, the picture of your two little ones under your username is just beautiful! your daughter looks like a wonderful little person! so very very cute!

jessie