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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I typed out a long post and it didn't take!<br><br>
So here I go again!<br><br>
I'm Jayne. I'm a 30-something mother to three boys ages 6, 5, and 2. We are a Catholic homeschooling family. I really love my children and want to do the right thing. We want more children too so if there are any moms of large families, speak up please!<br><br>
My husband recently "read something" (I think in a newspaper, that's all he ever usually gets info from) and doesn't think we should spank any more. Now, I don't spank in anger (if I am angry, I let myself cool off first) and not with an object. He suggested loss of privileges, time outs, standing in the corner, writing apologies (well, for the 6 yr old; the others cannot write) etc. Part of the problem is he works odd hours, and I am the one usually doing the discipline, spanking or not. (even when he is home) Someone told me it doesn't matter what form of punishment you use, just as long as you are consistent. I think that is right, but where to start now?<br><br>
My boys are vey active (well, whose boys aren't, right? LOL) and my five year old son is disobedient just for the fun of it. If I say "Please don't touch", he'll lightly put his finger on the object. If I say "Time to get into the car!" he'll run around the car, run into the parking lot, sit on the bumper, etc If I say "Please stay on the sidewalk, the grass is too wet and muddy"....you guessed it, he'll walk right into the grass. There were some times he'd deliberately jump in puddles after being asked not to.....then his shoes and socks were wet.....I would make him stay in the wet shoes on the trip to the store (or wherever.) But if my husband was with us, he would give in and change our son's shoes and socks because "it isn't fair to him" (but he disobeyed us, shouldn't he reap the consequences?)<br><br>
If you would help me, commisserate, whatever, I would really like it. How do you do it? How do you get your children to obey and what are the consequences if they don't?<br><br>
I feel like I need to "start over" here. My five year old is out of control, and my six year old to some extent. Surprisingly, my two year old is (so far LOL) pretty well-behaved.<br><br>
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!!!!!!<br><br>
(p.s. I don't know if I qualify as attachment parenting....our boys are circumcised, we don't cosleep, I don't carry the babies in slings that often, and we do some sleep training after a certain age.....but we sure love our kids and I want to do the right thing regarding discipline!)
 

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Hello and welcome to the forum!<br><br>
Here is a quote from GD forum guidelines that summarizes the idea of Gentle Discipline:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.</td>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>theirmomjayne</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">How do you get your children to obey and what are the consequences if they don't?</div>
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I only have a few minutes, but in short:<br><br>
For many of us the goal is not to make our kids obey. The goal is to teach them to make good choices themselves (not because somebody "told them so", but because they themselves want to and assign the importance to those choices)<br><br>
it's a completely different perspective on child rearing, one that concentrates on teaching and guiding the kids and not making them "performance machines" (sorry for the strong choice of words <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> )
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi, thanks for responding!<br>
I like the idea of choices, but what if there aren't any choices? Sometimes we need to get into the car now! Sometimes we have to pick up the toys! Sometimes there isn't a choice to eat now or eat later! I don't think that makes him into a "performance machine!"<br>
So what do you do if there IS not a choice?<br><br>
Thanks again!<br><br>
ETA: What do you suggest about misbehaving in church? I don't mean fidgeting, but actually shouting and making a scene just for the "fun" of it.
 

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Welcome to MDC!!! Don't worry about what you "don't do" just focus on making positive changes from this point on. Change is hard- switching to Gentle Discipline is going to be a huge adjustment for you and you're probably going to have some setbacks along the way- it's just part of being human!<br><br>
As for choices: you can always make choices: Do you want to get in the car by yourself or do you want Mommy to "help" you get into the car?<br>
You have a choice of eating now or not eating now- but if food won't be served later make that clear at mealtime/snacktime.<br>
Either you pick up the toys and they go into the toybox or Mommy picks up the toys and they go into a bag at the top of the closet.<br><br>
I happen to agree with you about the wet socks- child jumped in puddle after being told not to, child can deal with the natural consequences of having wet socks. I'm much more accommadating when it's truly an accident- and even then, if I don't have dry socks with me the child will just have to deal with it until we get home.<br><br>
The only behavior you mentioned that would personally upset me is your 5yo's lack of concern about safety in parking lots. I wouldn't put my energy into keeping him out of puddles or keeping him from touching stuff that isn't going to hurt him. He <i>might</i> focus better on safety if he wasn't constantly reprimanded for "the little stuff."
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>theirmomjayne</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hi, thanks for responding!<br>
I like the idea of choices, but what if there aren't any choices? Sometimes we need to get into the car now! Sometimes we have to pick up the toys! Sometimes there isn't a choice to eat now or eat later! I don't think that makes him into a "performance machine!"<br>
So what do you do if there IS not a choice?</div>
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I have been in a place similar to where you are, I think, and I will say that the first thing I learned that helped me was to stop seeing things as "must happen this very moment" with the exception of running in the street and playing with fire. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> By first giving up on the idea that my kids had to do things right this very second, a whole world of other discipline strategies opened up for me. If I want Ezra to get in the car and I am in a hurry and it's cold and rainy and the baby is crying, I say, "I want you to get in the car." Then I get the baby in the car. Most of the time he gets in the car. If I make the mistake of sayin,g "Get in the car; it's too cold/wet/dangerous to play!", he is much more likely to show me I'm wrong. It's as if he has to show me- Look! It's not too cold/wet/dangerous to ME.<br><br>
If I get the baby in the car and he is still not in the car, I help him in with a, "Do you want me to buckle your seatbelt?" I try REALLY REALLY hard to not comment in his "misbehavior", because I am slowly realizing what seems like misbehavior in THIS moment would be totally acceptable at another time, and in my hurry, I cannot/ will not take the time to parse it. Therefore, I give him the benefit of the doubt. (when I am having a good parenting day!)<br><br>
We have pretty strict eating times, and we just sit down and say blessing and eat. No one is denied food, but anyone who wants to eat with the family needs to be at the table by the time we say blessing. We have lots of leaway on how much waiting/reminding we do before we say blessing, because for the most part, they WANT to eat with us and will do almost anything to be at the table with everyone else. So, if they are ALMOST done with something, we wait or we help them finish or we suggest another time to finish. Or, if he/she is having a meltdown (usually because we haven't fed them soon enough) we help him/her through the meltdown and then eat. Again, we have found that behavior has been much more agreeable to *us* by being less strict in many regards AND by not ordering anyone to the table.<br><br>
As far as "chores" go, we help. My oldest is 6, and there are not many chores he is truly able to do without at least a bit of company (that spoonful of sugar thing). Poor child- it has taken me three years to realize he is too little for many of my mother's expectations that I have been slowly weeding out. My 4 yo often just will not pick up toys, and I will admit this infuriates me, but I also know this is the same child who would clean the entire room just a few short months ago. Therefore, I assume she is going through a phase and if we continue to do our cleaning routine, she will eventually join us again. She does do better with tiny assignments, like please take this glass to the kitchen.<br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>theirmomjayne</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">ETA: What do you suggest about misbehaving in church? I don't mean fidgeting, but actually shouting and making a scene just for the "fun" of it.</div>
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I do not know about your church, so disregard if this does not apply. Sometimes, church is just boring for little ones, and we have to work around it. Also, some kids (like my DS and DD1) are so surprised by the huge reaction just a little thing like bouncing on a seat, that they have to try it again and again and again. It is as if to see just how mad Mama gets when I do _____. It is not "fun" I think to them, but more of a car crash, roller coaster scary fascination. Are there quiet toys or food that would be okay in your meeting? Is it possible for him to be in the meeting for a smaller portion of it?<br><br>
Sorry for going on and on.
 

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Hi I am new here too so not much advice yet . Just wanted you to know your not alone. This is all new to me too. Though I am a non spanker. Except for a very bad night last week when I lost it with my son, hence why I have come here on the recommendation of a member here. Good luck with all the learning. I have been reading a bit in the couple of days I have been here and already have some new ideas I had never thought of before.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">
 

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Welcome to MDC!<br><br>
I agree with Ruthla that if the child decides he absolutely has to jump in a puddle, then his socks will just be wet for a while.<br>
I mean, why else do people not jump in puddles at the supermarket parking lot? The reason <i>I</i> don't is because wet socks gross me out.<br>
Of course, if after a while the child notices that wet socks suck, and you have dry ones on hand, it would be fine to just ask the child to remember how uncomfy wet socks are and let him know that that's why sometimes splashing in puddles isn't a good idea, and then give him new ones.<br>
The idea behind GD with older kids is that it's not about inflicting punishment...just "this is why" stuff, instead. Very similar, in ways, but fundamentally different in ways, as well.<br>
It's not about obedience, it's about really understanding the reasons behind <i>why</i> we do/don't do what we do/don't do.
 

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Hi there, and welcome : )<br><br><br>
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet, but a big thing we do is to tell our DS what TO do, instead of what NOT to do.<br><br>
Please keep your fork on the table<br>
(where they hear "fork on table")<br><br>
vs<br>
Don't throw your fork<br>
(where they hear "throw your fork" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> )<br><br>
I promise, this is true...I've seen it in action with my very active, enthusiastic 2yo.<br><br><br>
Also, we try to frame our wishes as a "statements" (cheerful, enthusiastic-y ones, not mean) instead of a command or request, AND then if it isn't done (or stopped) after the first (or second) time, we gently and calmly facilitate whatever it is we want to get done...<br>
"OK, bud, time for teeth and bath!" (NOT "Do you want to get ready for bed?" or "Get into the bathroom now") The answer to the second one is automatically "no" (and I've never used the third one so I don't know what would happen there), but if we frame it the first way, he happily follows us into the bathroom 95% of the time. The times he squeals and bolts in the opposite direction, I just go scoop him up and repeat "Time for bath and teeth!" as I carry him to the bathroom - sometimes upside down, sometimes sideways, etc. but he's always giggling by the time we get there).<br>
"Making things happen" calmly, gently, and cooperatively (with no mention of any resistance) after the first or second request means I'm not frustrated and snapping at him because I've asked 10 times, and he figures out that in our family things happen, without any yelling or scary consequences. Beyond facilitating our request, we don't impose any consequences...unless it's something like he's throwing a pointy object at a person...then we'll ask him to keep it in his hand or on the floor or something, and if he's not able to, the toy will be away for while until he calms down...but that's more a safety thing, really. I'm more into the natural and logical consequences, things directly related to what's going on, and stating expectations for what we'd like to happen next time, and leaving it at that. Consistent, unwavering expectations and redirection are very powerful - it can be exhausting, but effective AND gentle.<br><br>
Some mamas here take umbrage with the "have to" nature of life...I'm kind of in the middle about it. For my own "have to's", I try to make it as fun as possible and accomodate any bizarre requests he has that will make it easier on him, so it's not "because I said so", but "because it's important to mommy, and I appreciate your cooperation." I think if you focus on the cooperation aspect of it ( because honestly, there are few things we really "have to" do, we just don't like the alternatives to NOT doing the things) as opposed to the "have to" nature of things, it goes down easier. However, say in a situation where I have a doctor appointment, I am not a person who will cancel an appointment if DS doesn't "want" to go. What I will do is let him bring whatever toy he wants with him, will go outside 10 minutes early so he can play in the yard, bring his favorite snack, etc. I will "ease the pain" of him not wanting to do something *in that moment* because I know he has limited capacity to see the big picture, and I know between the snack, the toy, and just getting out and about with mom, we'll have a good time once we get out of the driveway. If he's still resistant, I will empathize with him, "I know you don't feel like going right now, I'm sorry; it's important that I keep my appointment, though; we'll be able to play more when we get home." or something like that, give him a hug and a kiss, and move on...so I'm not just telling him to suck it up and get over it, but I'm also not stopping the flow of our day and giving his momentary desire to not go power over the overall fun we'll have out and about. He doesn't have the insight yet to be able to see the end result if he's focused on "no" at any particular moment, and I think it's my job to help him work through it as painlessly as possible until he develops that ability.<br><br>
One other thing I thought of, I only give DS choices when I'm *really* OK with him making either choice, so I don't set him up with false choices or 'choices' that are really one that I want, and another that is not something he'd want to do anyway. If it's not really a choice, then I frame it as a gentle statement and find ways to make whatever it is as easy as possible.<br><br>
I am of the more authoritative branch of GD, so just thought I'd chime in...for me, GD has everything to do with "letting go" of most of the small stuff, and focusing on the fact that you want your child to do "the right thing" because it's the right thing to do, not because they were told so....also, to NOT do "the wrong thing" because it's the wrong thing, not because they're afraid of what will happen if they get caught.<br><br>
AND, for the record, I was raised this way, gently, and it TOTALLY works. I GUARANTEE you you do NOT have to lay a hand on your child, and they can/will grow into responsible, courteous, kind adults (patting my parents and myself on the back...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> ). My parents respected me, and I respected them (and still do! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"> ). *IF* you're a reader and looking for a book about being a firm, "in charge" parent, Anthony Wolf has a great book called "The secret of parenting" that I really enjoyed, and it gave some explanations as to the "whys" of some things kids do (or don't do)...and Wolf is totally against punishments or threats, and really explains it well. It is an easy, fun read.
 

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I've been hanging out here a bit and just wanted to pop in and say thanks Donosmommy. Your post really hit home for me. You outlined an approach that *for me*, is rational, practical and inline with my beliefs. It was a big help. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Welcome to the board. I have 2 ds a4 year old and a soon to be 22 month old.<br>
I am at the parents are in charge side of gd.Some of the things that I do are ,State how we want the to behave.For example I will say what does good behavior at church look like? My 4 year old and I will then talk about good behavior at church.Whenleaving a playground I give a count down.At he end of the count down I say chose one more thing to do. If He does not come I will carry him to the car in need be.We do time out for disobeying .the sit on the stairs or on a couch for a short time.We also do quiet times.Sometimes my ollsest can get out of contol .He just needs a few minutes with books on couch or in his room to settle down. We alsolimmit tv time.They also get energy out time. I ak=lso try to spend time with them so they have my attention positively.<br>
I think the most important step is that we are consistent.When dh or I say that you may not pl ay with your bike because you talk back to mmomy then he knows no bike.<br>
Hope this helps<br>
Susan
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hey!<br><br>
I read "Secret to Parenting" and have to say I was disappointed. Seems to me he just wants parents to ignore the problems. I was especially taken aback ad the mother whose daughter refused to help bring in the groceries.....yet when the daughter asked the mother to get something for HER, the mother complied.<br><br>
I've found that having a stricter schedule or routine has helped us immensely. Less time for idleness and getting into trouble!<br><br>
Thanks,<br>
Jayne
 

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Welcome to Mothering!<br><br>
Some of the links at the beginning of this forum have lots of good information -- you may want to check them out.<br><br>
Gentle discipline takes many forms so I certainly can't speak for everyone here. But some tips from our household:<br><br>
1) our goal is to help our children internalize values such as compassion, kindness, respect for others, love of learning, etc. we encourage this primarily (as opposed to strict submission/obedience).<br><br>
2) we teach non-violence and that hitting another human being is unacceptable. so we model that, of course, by not hitting our kids.<br><br>
3) we give lots of choices where possible. sometimes choices are like this: "you may either hold my hand in the parking lot or you may sit in your stroller." safety is non-negotiable but there is always room to let your child contribute to decisions.<br><br>
4) when my toddler loses emotional control, i give a voice to her frustration (to the extent I can). I might say something like: "Halsea is very sad! Halsea wants a cookie!" while still not giving her the cookie. A tantrum is loss of emotional control and an inability to cope with overwhelming emotions. It is not "brattiness" or misbehavior, in my view.<br><br>
5) I have used time-outs for my 4-year-old. Many here do not believe in them because they are punitive. But I have used them when I feel I am reaching the end of my rope and may say something inappropriate/hurtful.<br><br>
6) kids need lots of exercise and attention to sleep and healthy food needs. Some "misbehavior" is lack of sleep, exercise, or just time for a snack. I try to tune into these things.<br><br>
7) I take the time to explain why I am doing things: "I am taking this stick away because you are waving it and someone could get hurt."<br><br>
8) I educate myself constantly about age-appropriate behavior and phases. I try to remember that ALL kids "misbehave" because childhood is the process of learning a society's rules and norms. I want my lessons to be gentle, compassionate and kind. Not violent, punitive, or angry.<br><br>
Anyway, my kids need me right now so I must stop typing. I will add more later if stuff comes to mind.<br><br>
Again, welcome and I hope you enjoy this forum. There is amazing wisdom here and I have learned so much!<br><br>
ETA: Here are the rest of the forum guidelines:<br><br>
Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.<br><br>
'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara<br><br><br>
Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.<br><br>
Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
 

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Another Catholic mama of three boys here -- ages 8, 5 1/2 and 2. I also have another boy on the way, due in about six weeks. I can feel you're pain and frustration.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> We don't homeschool, our boys go to a wonderful Catholic school. Frankly, I wouldn't be a good homeschooler and I can admit it. I'm thankful for the parochial school option.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"><br><br>
We aren't a spanking family and never have. I also rarely use things like timeout (I think I can count the number of times on my fingers and toes that I've used it with any of my three boys.) That doesn't mean that life is a bed of roses. Getting the older two kids to pick up their room is tanamount to torture for all involved, and there are always fights to deal with. In all honesty, I think that the two's aren't terrible, I think that the worst age so far has been from about five to six. With both my older two boys, that has been the age with the most tantrums and frustrations. I think they are walking that line between wanting to be grown up and independent but yet they often aren't developmentally ready for the independence they crave. They also still want to be our babies at times. It seems to make for a lot of inner, as well as outer, conflict for them. My guess is that as both of your kids move out of this stage, things will begin to get a little easier.<br><br>
I would suggest that you surf around here a bit and read. There will be ideas ranging from time out to total non-coersive parening. While you won't likely totally agree with most things you read, you will learn and can take bits and pieces that sound reasonable and add them to your parenting bag. There are many posters here that I don't totally agree with, and many threads that have made me leave this forum for a while because I get so totally frustrated, but I always find myself coming back. Even those who I don't totally agree with have wonderful things to say and I can still learn from their experiences. They help keep me in check on my bad days.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"><br><br>
BTW, there is also a Catholic moms thread in spirituality you might want to check out.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>theirmomjayne</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hey!<br><br>
I read "Secret to Parenting" and have to say I was disappointed. Seems to me he just wants parents to ignore the problems. I was especially taken aback ad the mother whose daughter refused to help bring in the groceries.....yet when the daughter asked the mother to get something for HER, the mother complied.<br><br>
I've found that having a stricter schedule or routine has helped us immensely. Less time for idleness and getting into trouble!<br><br>
Thanks,<br>
Jayne</div>
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I'm sorry the book wasn't a good fit for you - there are lots of other great advice here on the boards and other books on the sticky list that you'd probably find more in tune with your needs - keep on trying until you find your fit!!
 

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Hi and welcome! And please give your DH a big hug from all of us!<br><br>
I wanted to tell you that even though everything you hear from us will sound non-intuitive, in a very short time you will be doing it naturally and easily. Gentle discipline is a mindset and it's easy to get frustrated because you have to think creatively. Gentle discipline has made me into a very flexible and creative person.<br><br>
I think you've gotten great ideas. The most important thing to remember is that there are always choices and different ways of doing things. If you there is not a choice about getting into the car (you must go!) then remember there are choices about *how* to get into the car. It's not about *if*, it's about *how*.<br><br>
Instead of asking myself "how can I get her to "obey?", I always ask myself "how can I get her to cooperate?". The language is a very powerful and important thing because it creates a distinction between me being the all-powerful force and me being her partner in creating an adult.<br><br>
Another thing that is important to remember is that parenting should be a long-term goal. Instead of thinking about the day-to-day, think about the kind of adult that you want your child to be. If you have sons, do you want them to be domineering and controlling or do you want them to be cooperative and gentle? If you have daughters, do you want them to be submissive or do you want them to be determined?<br><br>
Anyway, just wanted to pop in with some completely impractical advice! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> Seriously though, sometimes when I think about the philosophy behind GD it is a great reminder of why I do what I do.
 
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