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Discussion Starter #1
<p>Has anyone traveled through airports that have the new TSA scanners?  I have been doing a lot of reading on this and am very conflicted.  I understand that the TSA agents are going to pull people at random from the metal detection scanners and into the body scanners.  The images that those body scanners project are VERY revealing and border on pornography as ALL your junk is visible.  In addition, that is extra radiation that your body does not need.  On the flip side, if you decline the scan, you will be patted down in a completely new way - with the palms of the hands and cupped and groped to make sure you are not hiding anything - yes, including cupping a man's stuff and up to the underside of the breast.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, radiation shot or physically violated?  I don't like either option.  I certainly do not approve of either option for my children.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's some casual reading material:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Naked+scanners+airports+dangerous+scientists/3819955/story.html" target="_blank">http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Naked+scanners+airports+dangerous+scientists/3819955/story.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>and</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/these-events-took-place-roughly-between.html" target="_blank">http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/these-events-took-place-roughly-between.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know there are issues of safety right now.  But really, being physically violated is acceptable?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Has anyone gone through these yet?  With your children?  Would you let your child go?  Which option would you choose?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The TSA website says that if we decline both the scan and body pat-down (ha!) that we will be escorted from the airport.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think this whole thing is outrageous.</p>
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<p>P.S. This is my first time on the new forum format.  Still figuring out all the new stuff.  <span><img alt="thumb.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="width:23px;height:18px;"></span></p>
 

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<p>I went through oakland airport recently and they do have the new scanners.  I was a little worried about it but they weren't sending anyone at all through them.  I'd rather be patted down by a woman than seen on the x-rays by a man.</p>
<p>(They asked me to submit to a pat down at LAX coming home, just my lower half, I presume because I was wearing a big flowy skirt.  (LAX didn't even have the scanners)  It's not the first time I've been patted down at the airport.  Honestly, yes, it's annoying and intrusive, but it's not that big a deal.  It's not "groping".)</p>
 

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For those interested, here's some more reading on this subject from another board I frequent: <a href="http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1138014-complete-list-airports-whole-body-imaging-advanced-imaging-technology-scanner.html" target="_blank">http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1138014-complete-list-airports-whole-body-imaging-advanced-imaging-technology-scanner.html</a><br><br>
The above includes a list of airports utilizing the technology.
 

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<p>Of course they are saying that there's no risk and it's the same amount of radiation you get from 2 minutes on an airplane. Which may be true, but then they say a lot of things- HFCS is great! Smoking too! Let's cover ourselves in DDT! This medication is shown to have no side effects! etc. <img alt="orngtongue.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif"></p>
<p> </p>
<p>We are flying over Christmas and I plan on declining the scan for me and my kids. Let them frisk us. I used to go to clubs in NYC and we would get the full treatment to get in- crotch, between and under breasts, it's not so bad- and it's done by a female. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
 

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<p>i hate to be an alarmist, but those pat downs aren't just feeling under your breasts.  from first hand accounts i have read, if you decline the scanner they check, under your clothes, touching buttocks,labia, perineum area.  if they check your kids you are expected to hold your children so they can touch them this way.  maybe i would be able to handle being frisked like this, but i would not ever hold my child down so they could do this.  it kind of defeats the purpose of all my work trying to PREVENT them from being molested.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>read this woman's account here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>there is also video out there showing a little girl being frisked by security. the parents are holding her as the security gaurd is reaching under her dress and the whole itme the girl is screaming "stop touching me!!".  yeah....i don't think we'll be flyiing for a while.</p>
 

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<p>We recently flew and were planning on declining the body scans, but we ended up just going through a metal detector anyways.  DH's a rad tech student and can't be exposed to excessive radiation as it is, besides the health concerns.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I wouldn't allow my kids to go through one. I'd take a pat down over a full body scan.</p>
 

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<p>No, I won't let my kids get patted down, so if we get pulled over to go through the full body scan, so be it. It is amazing that we find this acceptable in the name of secuirity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Of course, if they are still doing it randomly, then they really are just profiling, like they have in the past- So yes, I do have concerns about this. My husband showed me a kids coloring book to help teach the kids what to expect and that it is ok. <span><img alt="splat.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/splat.gif"></span></p>
 

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Discussion Starter #8
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Magelet</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16050885"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>I went through oakland airport recently and they do have the new scanners.  I was a little worried about it but they weren't sending anyone at all through them.  I'd rather be patted down by a woman than seen on the x-rays by a man.</p>
<p>(They asked me to submit to a pat down at LAX coming home, just my lower half, I presume because I was wearing a big flowy skirt.  (LAX didn't even have the scanners)  It's not the first time I've been patted down at the airport.  Honestly, yes, it's annoying and intrusive, but it's not that big a deal.  It's not "groping".)</p>
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<p><br>
Everything that I've read online from personal accounts says that what the TSA agents do IS groping.  I'm sorry, but if someone cups my husband's stuff and then wants to separate the goodies to see if he stashed something between his twig and berries, that's not acceptable!  Or if some female TSA officer wants to stick her hands INSIDE my bra, that's not acceptable either!  There are numerous personal accounts of that stuff happening.  Somehow, kids 12 and under are exempt from one but not the other but I'm not sure which.  Neither is an acceptable option.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><br><span>Quote:</span></p>
<div class="quote-container">
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ms. Sisko</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16050886"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br>
For those interested, here's some more reading on this subject from another board I frequent: <a href="http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1138014-complete-list-airports-whole-body-imaging-advanced-imaging-technology-scanner.html" target="_blank">http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travel-safety-security/1138014-complete-list-airports-whole-body-imaging-advanced-imaging-technology-scanner.html</a><br><br>
The above includes a list of airports utilizing the technology.</div>
</div>
<br><p>What is the millimeter wave scan referenced in the first post.  I see that there is 6 pages of discussion so I haven't read through the whole thing.</p>
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>mouso</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16051178"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>Of course they are saying that there's no risk and it's the same amount of radiation you get from 2 minutes on an airplane. Which may be true, but then they say a lot of things- HFCS is great! Smoking too! Let's cover ourselves in DDT! This medication is shown to have no side effects! etc. <img alt="orngtongue.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif"></p>
<p> </p>
<p>We are flying over Christmas and I plan on declining the scan for me and my kids. Let them frisk us. I used to go to clubs in NYC and we would get the full treatment to get in- crotch, between and under breasts, it's not so bad- and it's done by a female. </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<p><br><br>
I don't know about not being so bad...  Will they buy you a steak and lobster dinner first and then call you in the morning???  <span><img alt="ROTFLMAO.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/ROTFLMAO.gif" style="width:39px;height:15px;"></span></p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>raelize</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052367"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>i hate to be an alarmist, but those pat downs aren't just feeling under your breasts.  from first hand accounts i have read, if you decline the scanner they check, under your clothes, touching buttocks,labia, perineum area.  if they check your kids you are expected to hold your children so they can touch them this way.  maybe i would be able to handle being frisked like this, but i would not ever hold my child down so they could do this.  it kind of defeats the purpose of all my work trying to PREVENT them from being molested.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>read this woman's account here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>there is also video out there showing a little girl being frisked by security. the parents are holding her as the security gaurd is reaching under her dress and the whole itme the girl is screaming "stop touching me!!".  yeah....i don't think we'll be flyiing for a while.</p>
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<p><br>
Oh, I'm not saying that the pat-downs are nothing, but they don't feel under your clothes on your skin. I read that post and it seems they felt inside her waistband of her pants and then her groin and breast area OVER her pants/shirt. They didn't go in her pants and under her shirt to feel her labia and breasts. That doesn't mean that these don't feel invasive/intrusive to many, though. The first time I had a search like that done I was like, wow, that was sure a thorough search!</p>
<p>I would be interested in reading those other first-hand accounts where they did go under the clothes, though, so I can reevaluate my plan if it really is happening. </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>We have to fly this season, already something I don't look forward to, now I'm really dreading it! <img alt="irked.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/irked.gif"></span></p>
 

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<p>I've been through several the 'enhanced' pat-downs. I've flown quite a bit, and it was definitely different than any patdown I've been through before, and did leave me feeling a bit violated, but was nothing like what the posters online are describing. It was all over the clothing, but they definitely did run their hands over your entire breast and groin area.</p>
 

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<p>What if you are wearing a pad during the pat down?</p>
 
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Discussion Starter #12
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Aeress</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052386"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>No, I won't let my kids get patted down, so if we get pulled over to go through the full body scan, so be it. It is amazing that we find this acceptable in the name of secuirity.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Of course, if they are still doing it randomly, then they really are just profiling, like they have in the past- So yes, I do have concerns about this. My husband showed me a kids coloring book to help teach the kids what to expect and that it is ok. <span><img alt="splat.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/splat.gif"></span></p>
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Where is this book?  Do you have a link???  I'd like to see it..</p>
<p> </p>
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Aeress</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052576"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>What if you are wearing a pad during the pat down?</p>
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<p><br><br>
Great question!!!  So what about a baby's diaper???  If we get pulled out of the metal detector line and redirected to the porno/violate line, what are they going to do to check the baby's diaper???  While it is a bonus that our DD likely won't remember an experience like this a couple weeks from now, it doesn't make it acceptable.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One of my biggest concerns is for our 11 yo DS.  He may have to fly to see his bio-father over the first half of winter break.  If his father books that ticket, I don't have a choice but to either send him or face a court action.  Those TSA agents at the start of the scan line don't know his age.  What if they decide to redirect us?  I don't want to subject our 11 yo to this.  TSA doesn't have all the kinks worked out yet.  They don't exactly hire the most intelligent people to run "security" if they're paying barely above minimum wage.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Arggghghhh!  This is so maddening!</p>
 

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<p>I am realllllly against them both and I am not a modest person by any means. Just the sound of it feels violating (I have not flown in years)... the simple answer (and the option a lot of people will now take, I am sure) is "well, just don't fly", and with the travel industry struggling as it has been, I hope it cripples them enough that it leads them to see how bad of an idea this is....</p>
 
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<p>The thing that frustrates me is reading stuff like this (from <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40234326/ns/travel-news/" target="_blank">this</a> link):</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Some travelers complain that the new inspections target sensitive body areas. Pistole says he understands those privacy concerns, but says the government must provide the best possible security for air travelers."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>That rationale could be used to justify anything. I can just see in a few years, the above quote will be the same except that the phrase "new inspections" would be replaced by "cavity searches." But don't worry, it's just the government keeping us safe. You want to be SAFE don't you?!?!?!1!1? Refusing to submit is un-American, dontchaknow -- that's how the terrorists win. Blugh. </p>
 

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<p>i think that it was under clothes, over underwear.  but then, the author, Dave Barry was searched this way and i don't remember if it was under underwear, but it was definately under clothes.  they wear gloves when they do this. i don't think they would worry about wearing gloves if they were going over clothes.<br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>mouso</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052502"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>raelize</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052367"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>i hate to be an alarmist, but those pat downs aren't just feeling under your breasts.  from first hand accounts i have read, if you decline the scanner they check, under your clothes, touching buttocks,labia, perineum area.  if they check your kids you are expected to hold your children so they can touch them this way.  maybe i would be able to handle being frisked like this, but i would not ever hold my child down so they could do this.  it kind of defeats the purpose of all my work trying to PREVENT them from being molested.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>read this woman's account here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>there is also video out there showing a little girl being frisked by security. the parents are holding her as the security gaurd is reaching under her dress and the whole itme the girl is screaming "stop touching me!!".  yeah....i don't think we'll be flyiing for a while.</p>
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<p><br>
Oh, I'm not saying that the pat-downs are nothing, but they don't feel under your clothes on your skin. I read that post and it seems they felt inside her waistband of her pants and then her groin and breast area OVER her pants/shirt. They didn't go in her pants and under her shirt to feel her labia and breasts. That doesn't mean that these don't feel invasive/intrusive to many, though. The first time I had a search like that done I was like, wow, that was sure a thorough search!</p>
<p>I would be interested in reading those other first-hand accounts where they did go under the clothes, though, so I can reevaluate my plan if it really is happening. </p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>We have to fly this season, already something I don't look forward to, now I'm really dreading it! <img alt="irked.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/irked.gif"></span></p>
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<br><br>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>raelize</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052367"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><p>read this woman's account here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/</a></p>
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 </p>
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<p>She kept saying "vagina area".  Did the TSA do a cavity search, or does this woman just not have the word <em>vulva</em> in her vocabulary?  Or is she just trying to incite a very specific emotional response from her readers?  Because I <em>have</em> been sexually assaulted, and I can't imagine how a pat-down could compare to that...</p>
 

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In response to Mama_of_1:<br><br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner</a><br><br>
Both the MMW scanner and the backscatter x-ray scanners are whole body imaging devices. I am the farthest thing from an expert on the actual technology employed but some do debate one being safer than the other. The above link has samples of the images the machine produces.<br><br>
I would rather get naked in the middle of the airport and have it filmed for all posterity to behold than go through an "enhanced" pat down or a WBI contraption. At least then everyone would be able to see what was going on. I have yet to be pulled from the line but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>blessedwithboys</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052831"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>raelize</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1279838/new-tsa-security-regulations#post_16052367"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><p>read this woman's account here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/</a></p>
<p> <br>
 </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>She kept saying "vagina area".  Did the TSA do a cavity search, or does this woman just not have the word <em>vulva</em> in her vocabulary?  Or is she just trying to incite a very specific emotional response from her readers?  Because I <em>have</em> been sexually assaulted, and I can't imagine how a pat-down could compare to that...</p>
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<p><br>
I have also been sexually assaulted. And I can definitely imagine how a pat-down could compare to that. I can also imagine having a traumatic reaction to being groped, resulting in becoming either a crying, blubbery mess - even to the point of going into shock, or screaming and reacting violently against my assailant. With the high number of sexual assault survivors in this country, these "pat-downs" are irresponsible and damaging, to say the least.</p>
 

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<p>I will not be flying out of any airport where this is happening.  This is completely outrageous.  I hope enough people don't just meekly submit to this, that the airlines are forced to stop doing it.  I hope the airlines go bankrupt.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I'm so mad that so many people are just going along with this.  If you're willing to consent to this, where do you draw the line?  What if they start doing cavity searches?  Would you be okay with that?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know some people have no choice but to fly, and that's a horrible position to be in; in that case I would choose the body scan.  I will not be groped by some stranger, and there is no way in hell I'll hold my kid down while they're sexually assaulted.  How awful.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I wouldn't be okay with any of this even if it made us safer, but it doesn't.  It's ridiculous.  Do you think if a terrorist had an explosive small enough to hide in their underwear, or between their breasts, they wouldn't just put it in a body cavity?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ugh I'm so mad about this.</p>
 
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<p>I read the whole Dave Barry interview twice and at no time does he mention taking off his pants or it being under his pants. I'm not trying to get into an argument but feel like there is a lot of misinformation out there and am trying to figure out the reality. I get on a plane with my family in a month and would like to prepared, not scared of vague accusations.</p>
<p>So far what I can see is that while a search like that involves firm placement of hands by a same sex person into the groin area, which many find invasive,  there is no clothing removal. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, does anyone have links to where there is an actual statement by someone that they were searched by groping inside their pants and under their shirt? Because I'm pretty certain there would be a much larger uproar if TSA employees were fishing around inside people's pants. </p>
<p>I'm by no means defending any of this- just want to know the facts.</p>
<p>The PP who has had several of these searches at airports who posted above has pretty much described the kind of extremely thorough searches that I've had before. But those do not involve going under clothes.</p>
<p> </p>
 
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