[Snuggles]

Hello all.. I've been lurking here at GD for a while and am generally new to the concept of 'Gentle Discipline'. I have seen some join this forum who wish to move from an authoritarian role to a role that is more respectful of their children. I think I have the opposite problem... and am in very grave danger of being much too permissive.<br><br>
My daughter is 2.5 years old. I think about discipline a large part of every day... about strategies to deal with certain behaviours, issues etc. I have been through the booklist here and have read 'How to talk...' which is now raggedy. I just can't seem to find solutions to fit my child. Certain approaches will work for a while before she's on to me and adapts and raises the bar. As soon as I attempt to acknowledge her feelings she gets annoyed... like she's saying 'I know this trick and I'm tired of it.' I'm exhausted with the ongoing failure.<br><br>
I'm struggling to break this down into managable chunks for the purpose of this post...<br><br>
Perhaps an example...<br><br>
Ciara will react to any new scenario with a 'no' or contrary position. Even if it ought to be something favourable to her. I might ask her if she would like to go to the playground, and before the word 'playground' is out of my mouth she is saying 'No'... and will change her position to 'Yes' once she has fully heard me.<br><br>
If I give her choices, she will pick something that is not a choice. 'Beans or Risotto Balls for lunch, Ciara?' She will say 'Scrambled Eggs'... I say, 'ok Scrambled Eggs, good choice'.. she will say 'Beans'. I give her a last opportunity to make a choice of the now three options... she'll invent a fourth option and it ends by me choosing for her and her in tears and refusing to eat. So, I look at what happened and tell myself that I should never have allowed Scrambled Eggs into the picture... next time I'll stand firm on the two choices and tell her she can have scrambled eggs another day... but more tears. She can cry for ages... it's not real crying but I sympathise with her and hug her none-the-less. The reason I say it's not real crying is because I have seen her switch from total 'devestated' crying to joy that her auntie has walked through the door in milliseconds. She also asks me to bring her to the mirror so she can see herself being sad!<br><br>
DH will come in to give her a good-night kiss when she's going to bed and she will give me a great big kiss instead all-the-while looking at her poor confused dad.<br><br>
I am trying to think back over the past years to understand how we might have influenced this in her. I honestly cannot say that we have modelled it. But, perahps I'm missing something.<br><br>
Has anyone been there? I'm looking for a starting point... for enlightment... for anything. I find it hard to think on my feet when issues arise. When something happens once I will build a strategy to deal with it when it reoccurs....<br><br>
I dunno where I'm going with this. I spend much of my time confused as all hell and feeling incompetent and utterly controlled by a two-year-old.

 

[sunnmama]

Snuggles--<br>
Sooo-oo much of what you've described is just part of being 2, and she will outgrow all on her own. The "no" to everything--even positive things!--is a classic example. Ditto for the indecision (she probably is frustrated because *she doesn't know what she wants), and the withholding of kisses from dad. She will outgrow it--you just need to some strategies to survive the frustration of *right now*!<br><br>
When my dd would do the kiss-thing, I would say "Oh, you don't want Daddy's kiss? I'll take it!!!" And then she would rush in to get between daddy and me so that I wouldn't get her kiss. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
As for the indecision, you could try comforting her and helping her understand her frustration ("It is hard to decide what to eat sometimes."). Could she be over-hungry when this occurs? Maybe she needs a snack a bit earlier?<br><br>
My dd did not have a really big "No" stage (which makes my dd odd, cause this one is classic). I think she was too busy tantruming at that age to just say "no" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> . So no ideas there. But, rest assured, these behaviors are normal, normal, normal (and frustrating, frustrating, frustrating). Hope that you get lots more ideas!

 

[Snuggles]

Thank-you Sunmama... I took your suggestion and stole Ciara's kiss from her Dad. She was most unimpressed! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
I think I need to settle myself into things easily. I've probably become quite intense in the discipline arena all of a sudden which is hard for both Ciara and I to take. At times I get so frustrated because I am disappointed that raising my daughter doesn't come as naturally as expected. I read all the wonderful threads on this board and many of you seem to have wonderfully instinctive solutions to problems that excrutiate me.<br><br>
So, deep breaths all round... thank-you again for the reassurance.<br><br>
Take Care.

 

[Embee]

Snuggles,<br><br>
Indeed, there was nothing in your post that we haven't dealt with either. Few of us escape the follies of the 2 year old (or in my case, 3 1/2 year old <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">). DH and I have just really made sure to remind ourselves that DS is working through power issues. That having his own, and experiementing with it is totally normal. As for all the contrary behavior, we just take it in stride and keep our senses of humor. We try to empower DS as much as possible, but of course not at the cost of our own integrity or his safety... not always easy!<br><br>
I've found that my best way of coping with all of it, is to just be creative in the moment. Some days it's easier than others--like when I'm tired for instance. We've had a similar nighttime scene btw. DS snuggles up on my lap to nurse and in the old days, DH would say, "hug or kiss goonight." DS would give an answer, they say their goodnights and be done with it. Anymore, DS will tell DH before climbing up on my lap, "no hug and no kiss!" It's playful of course and DH plays along... "Well, how CAN I say goodnight to you?" DS will usually make up some silly nonsensical string of words for DH to repeat. Which DH dutifully does and they say their goodnights.<br><br>
Sorry for the ramble, but I'm just trying to point out that so much of it right now, is just to be easy going, play along whenever you can and hang in there. The food choices can be tough. DS is also one to have a hard time with decisions. I usually offer him oatmeal or cold cereal for b-fast. He'll choose toast. And then oatmeal, etc. I'll usually stop, say playfully something like, "I'm going to make you b-fast one time today and I want you to enjoy your meal! So really think it over and let me know when you've made your final choice." Somehow giving him the TIME not to have to choose on the spot is really helpful. Yes, he's muddling choices around in his head, but for him this works and usualyl quite quickly. What I've learned about DS is that he HATES to be put on the spot. He gets that deer in headlights, totally spaced out look. When he knows he has time to decide, it helps somehow.<br><br>
And please don't feel bad about mothering not coming as natural. Truly, I imagine there are more people like us (because I'm one too! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">), than the reverse when it comes to discipline and growing up. I read books. Sometime too many! But it realls has helped me shape my philosophy. BUT, whenever it seems I've figured it all out, DS changes and I have to start over and find out what's going to work. I'm finally starting to understand that this is what it's all about: learning, growing WITH your kid as they learn and grow... it's not easy somedays!<br><br>
The best to you!

 

[chiedza]

Snuggles, I find myself struggling with many of the same things! I had one thought, though, about the food issue.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Snuggles</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If I give her choices, she will pick something that is not a choice. 'Beans or Risotto Balls for lunch, Ciara?' She will say 'Scrambled Eggs'... I say, 'ok Scrambled Eggs, good choice'.. she will say 'Beans'. I give her a last opportunity to make a choice of the now three options... she'll invent a fourth option and it ends by me choosing for her and her in tears and refusing to eat. So, I look at what happened and tell myself that I should never have allowed Scrambled Eggs into the picture... next time I'll stand firm on the two choices and tell her she can have scrambled eggs another day... but more tears.</div>
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Perhaps try offering a choice about a different aspect of the meal. Like, would you like your beans on the blue plate or the yellow plate? I.e. something that's not as much work for you to change if she chooses something you hadn't anticipated.

 

[LoveBeads]

VERY typical behavior for a 2-year old. I don't think you sound permissive, I think you sound fine!

 

[Snuggles]

Embee, Chiedza, LoveBeads<br><br>
Thank-you for you replies and reassurance... After reading your reply, Embee, I noticed that I was constantly hovering over Ciara which has gotta be overwhelming. One of our battles has been getting dressed. She can dress herself... but again the choosing-of-clothes battle plays much like the food battle. This-morning, she knew it was Library day (which she LOVES). I told her I would be ready to take her to the library when she is dressed, motioned towards her clothes on the bed and went about my business. My jaw made an audible thump on the table when she tottered up to me 10-minutes later all rugged up and ready to go! This may sound silly... but this is unprecedented behaviour in recent months! Ah, the little pleasures...<br><br>
Take Care.

 

[WithHannahsHeart]

It really sounds like you are headed in the right direction! I do not get into the food battle with dd; it is one that reallllly pushes my buttons. For example, if i pour her a bowl of cereal that SHE picked out, complete with the milk, then she refuses, i don't let her go round and round with me about other choices. I try to stay gentle and calm, but continue to tell her that mama has made this for her and that this was her final choice. If she really wants to eat, she generally ends up eating it - i don't make her eat it, i just refuse to fix three different things, all of which will be rejected. I cannot afford to waste food like that. For MY child, not going round and round on choices (though i certainly do offer them to her, usually two things), but taking a firm stand if it seems she wants to battle on it, or even letting it go and making no choices for a while (not eating til she's ready to make up her mind, in other words, though she is NOT denied food) does work. If it's about clothing, i really do try to let her wear what she wants as often as possible. If it's that she won't wear ANY clothes, i tell her that we can't go do xyz until she's dressed, then go about what i'm doing til she figures out that she can't go to the park naked <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">.<br><br>
Calmness throughout really helps.

 

[Mizelenius]

I think everything sounds normal, too . . .but just curious . . .how does your DD react when you don't give a choice but say "We're going to the park now!" Does she still yell "no"?

 

[Snuggles]

Hi Mizelenius,<br><br>
The reason I began giving Ciara choices was because she was becoming increasingly frustrated with unilateral decisions made by me and seemed ready to be involved in the decision-making...<br><br>
To answer your question, If Ciara was naked and I said to her "We are going to the park now" I should think that I might have the same sort of success as I had yesterday with the library scenario. What I haven't discovered yet is how she will feel about getting dressed when we are going somewhere she regards with indifference. Am I essentially bribing her to get dressed with the prize of a trip to the park or library?

 

[Aura_Kitten]

mmm 2 years old, isn't it fun? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"><br><br>
i'm sorry you're going through that... but it's totally normal. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
this stood out to me:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If I give her choices, she will pick something that is not a choice. 'Beans or Risotto Balls for lunch, Ciara?' She will say 'Scrambled Eggs'... I say, 'ok Scrambled Eggs, good choice'.. she will say 'Beans'. I give her a last opportunity to make a choice of the now three options... she'll invent a fourth option and it ends by me choosing for her and her in tears and refusing to eat. So, I look at what happened and tell myself that I should never have allowed Scrambled Eggs into the picture... next time I'll stand firm on the two choices and tell her she can have scrambled eggs another day... but more tears. She can cry for ages... it's not real crying but I sympathise with her and hug her none-the-less. The reason I say it's not real crying is because I have seen her switch from total 'devestated' crying to joy that her auntie has walked through the door in milliseconds. She also asks me to bring her to the mirror so she can see herself being sad!</td>
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you're right: you do need to limit choices. but i also see another problem: you are also allowing her to dwell on the choice she cannot have. instead of explaining she can have her other option another day, simply gently remind her, "no, you can either have ______ or _______ those are your options." repeat this as many times as necessary, always keeping your tone even and calm. eventually she'll realize you're giving her two choices, and she can either choose one, or choose none (and in the case of food, go hungry). i found that when my son would continue to argue about what he wanted v. the choices i was presenting him with, he wasn't really that hungry. one time, i asked him what he wanted for lunch, ______ or _____ and he suggested something else, and we went in circles about it for literally like twenty minutes, and i finally stopped and asked him, "michael, are you actually hungry?" he thought for a minute and said, "no." and walked away.<br><br>
when my son first learned to make himself "cry" i would remind him gently, "mama can see that you're not really crying. crying isn't going to get you what you want. go ahead and let out your tantrum, and then we'll talk." and i'd turn mostly away from him and "ignore" him while he wailed and wailed... and finally he realized that crying wasn't going to work to get him what he wanted, so he'd stop. then when he was more calm i'd hug him. i just had to teach him that he wasn't going to keep getting attention for trying to use fake emotions. if a child learns that they keep getting attention for their fake tears, they'll keep using it to manipulate you.<br><br>
also, the last bit about wanting to see herself sad ~ my son still does that sometimes (he's almost 4). it's annoying... but also in a way it teaches them about their own expressions and emotions. when my son first started doing that i had no idea how to deal with it, then finally i ended up just telling him, "go ahead. go watch yourself cry." and he'd stand in front of the mirror for what seemed like forever and wail, bring forth tears, rub his eyes, and carry on... and then finally stop and get distracted by something else (or start talking to his reflection). <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shrug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shrug"> kids can be weird like that.<br><br>
eta ~ i also just realized the inherent difference in the choices you are presenting her with (beans v. risotto balls) and the choice she suggested (scrambled eggs). have you considered that maybe she just really doesn't like or can't stand to eat either of the things you're presenting her with? i'm a firm believer that kids will develop tastes based on what they are presented with on a daily basis... but i also know that kids' tastes are very different than adults', and also that 2 years old is around the time children really start rejecting foods based on colors / textures / other reasons that adults can't fathom. you might consider what kinds of foods she really likes to eat, and what kinds of food you're always offering her... and then perhaps you can change what you regularly offer her so she can have something equally nutritious that's still something she likes.

 

[Snuggles]

Hi klothos,<br><br>
Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">you are also allowing her to dwell on the choice she cannot have. instead of explaining she can have her other option another day, simply gently remind her, "no, you can either have ______ or _______ those are your options</td>
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Yes, you are right. Reminding her that she can have the third option another day opens the door to another avenue for debate:<br><br>
Me: 'Beans or Risotto Balls?'<br>
C: 'Scrambled Eggs'<br>
Me: 'You can have scrambled eggs another day, Beans or Risotto Balls?'<br>
C: 'Not another day, now mamma'<br>
Me: 'How about scrambled eggs tomorrow?'<br>
C: 'Ciara wants scrambled eggs now mamma'<br><br>
...and suddenly we're not talking about the original choices any more. It's like debating with DH. It blows my mind how far from the original topic we get in every disagreement. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent"><br><br>
She does, however, LOVE beans and risotto balls. She will often fetch the beans herself and give them to me if she feels like a snack.<br><br><br><br><br>
Choosing to ignore her tears is always a tough one. When she is 'fake' crying she will ask for a cuddle. I cannot bring myself to refuse her a hug, ever. In any struggle where she feels she is at the 'losing' end of the battle, she will break the ice by demanding something totally out of left field, like a hug... so that she feels that while she may have lost the battle, she ultimately won the war. Sometimes she asks to nurse. I am torn about this, because I don't want nursing or cuddles to become an area of struggle or currency. They are like home to her. A place where she grounds herself, regathers her self to face the other issues. After she cuddles or nurses she willingly makes a choice of the two options. I do feel I've been taken in, however.<br><br>
Whaddaya think? How might you handle the request for cuddles etc.?

 

[Aura_Kitten]

this may sound harsh, but i just tell my son, "when you're done tantruming / whining / fake crying, then i'll give you cuddles (etc)."<br><br>
i don't know about your daughter, but with my son, even if i give him hugs / cuddles he assumes that his misbehaviour is working to get what he wants (duh, it *is* ~ he keeps on getting extra attention). so as long as i keep giving in to requests for hugs, cuddles, kisses... he'd keep on fake crying (or in the case of tantrums, prolong the tantrum). something that should have only lasted moments stretches out for over an hour if i let it.

 

[Dragonfly]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Snuggles</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Choosing to ignore her tears is always a tough one. When she is 'fake' crying she will ask for a cuddle. I cannot bring myself to refuse her a hug, ever. In any struggle where she feels she is at the 'losing' end of the battle, she will break the ice by demanding something totally out of left field, like a hug... so that she feels that while she may have lost the battle, she ultimately won the war. Sometimes she asks to nurse. I am torn about this, because I don't want nursing or cuddles to become an area of struggle or currency. They are like home to her. A place where she grounds herself, regathers her self to face the other issues. After she cuddles or nurses she willingly makes a choice of the two options. I do feel I've been taken in, however.<br><br>
Whaddaya think? How might you handle the request for cuddles etc.?</div>
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If you read back over your last paragraph, I think you answered your own question. Perhaps she needs that moment of cuddling or nursing to center herself. It's not necessarily a "manipulative" strategy. It's a way for her to ground herself in order to get to a place where she can make the decision you're asking her to make. The outcome is that she makes the choice within the boundaries you've set, right? So, it's not as though she's nursing or cuddling and then choosing scrambled eggs again.<br><br>
I always give in to requests for cuddles or nursing. I still stand firm on the choices, of course, but there's no reason to deny him what he needs in that respect.<br><br>
Look at it this way: There's a reason that she wants to make this third choice. She's finding her own voice. It's okay to sympathize with her need while still setting the limit - you're not giving in, you're just letting her know that she's understood. That's what everyone wants, right?<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

My DD when through a change in reaction to my discipline strategies when she was 2.5 so I have a few things to add. First, it sounds like you're doing a great job and your child sounds totally normal.<br><br>
DC did the 'no' first thing and is now saying 'yes' first to everything. I really don't think it has anything to do with discipline though ~ seems more language orientated to me.<br><br>
I don't know about the kissing thing but DC will not ever give affection if she doesn't feel like it and she definitely prefers to instigate it herself.<br><br>
The choices thing is what really got problematic for us during this age. I have actually reevaluated the choices strategy because of some issues I have with it. I think giving choices to a young child gives them the impression that they have 100% control over the choice. When the child develops a little more they realize that you're controlling the choice. When DC realized this I think she felt betrayed. I don't think it's a coincidence that this was the time that she changed from getting pissed when she couldn't have something to being 'devastated' like you described your DC. I just think they are beginning to understand that they aren't in control and that's a tough realization. Our solution was to allow DC some more control in other places in our life.<br><br>
The only other advice I have is to take an extra few moments to think about a situation before you react if things aren't coming naturally for you at this (or any) stage. That's what I have to do. I do not believe in "natural" parenting instincts and I think the whole idea of them undermines us. I've read and reread and have to constantly think about parenting. I probably misuse the word 'natural' when I really mean easy. Some things come easy some don't ~ for all of us!<br><br>
I agree with Dragonfly about the cuddles issue. You are not "giving in" by allowing cuddles or nursing unless that is what the battle is over, which I'm sure it never will be. Yes, your child may want a distraction. Maybe the goal is to get you to "give in" but as long as you don't - what's the problem. Besides, it's far more likely that your child just wants to move on. For us, a request for a hug is usually the indication that <i>DC</i> has given up and wants to reconnect or needs comfort because of the disappointment.<br><br>
One last thought, DC sometimes makes herself cry but asking for things she knows she can't have or by doing something she knows will upset me. This is an odd thing but it helps immensely to recognize it if that is part of what's going on. Is there any chance of this happening?

 

[Aura_Kitten]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">For us, a request for a hug is usually the indication that DC has given up and wants to reconnect or needs comfort because of the disappointment.</td>
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wow, you guys have really cool kids. :LOL

 

[srain]

When my husband or I find ourselves getting really annoyed or our son getting upset, we try to diffuse the situation with humor so we don't get into a nasty cycle and flip out. We say to our son, "oh, you want to play the Contradiction Game? Our dog has brown fur." That's his cue to say "No, the dog is green!" and we go on with that for a while. By the time we're done, we can usually get back on track and be respectful to each other.

 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>klothos</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">wow, you guys have really cool kids. :LOL</div>
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Yea, she's cool. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">

 

[hipumpkins]

We use humor a lot. DD is not quite 2 yet so perhaps my reply is premature. However, every morning I ask DD, "what do you want for breakfast? and she always says, "hot dogs!!" and I laugh and luagh and say, "You can not have hot dogs for breakfast you are very silly" What do you want for breakfast?" and she says, "I pream(ice cream)"<br>
"I say, "Oh you are silly. ice cream is not for breakfast...is cereal for breakifast?" then she will say , "cereal" sometimes she says, eggs but she knows those are breakfast foods.<br>
So maybe if your DD thorws in that 3rd option just laugh and laugh and say, "I don't t6hink mommy offered scrambled eggs...you are very silly"

 

[moma justice]

my sister's dd turned 2 last week and i just spent 2 weeks with her in the 2 year old world...wow<br>
it is sooo much harder than i thought!<br>
but your child sounds just like my sis's dd, she loves the word no right now and is doing some rejecting things with her dad....<br>
my sis did one cool trick that seemed to work great most of the time that i will share:<br>
when hannah was doing the no thing or demanding other chioces that were not exceptable (like going otuside to play after dark etc) then my sis would tell her what to say.,...<br>
it seemed like hannah would become obssesed with saying one statemnet over and over and she even forgot what and why she was saying it....so my sis would gently guide her back to sanity and the situation at hand by saying "hannah, say: i am tired mommy, i am ready for bed." or "hannah, say: yes mommy i want to eat beans" and almost everytime hannah would repeat after my sister and then pretty much happily do the thing that my sister wanted her to do in the first place.<br>
good luck<br>
s