[angela&avery]

Ok, so when my kids do something that i dont like, Im no longer losing it but Im at a loss for what to do/ say. Im angry, and Im standing there... and...

Like when dd took out a bunch of dvd's and had them open and one in the cd player or when i took a shower and got out to find that ds (5) somehow manages to dump his cereal on the OTHER side of the table from where he was sitting and into the chair.... Im like.. "what happened" his answer "autumn made me...." so i say "but what happened"... he says " I was moving my bowl". ok..... "why".... no answer.....so I just say, "well you need to clean it up..."

cross posted in the childhood years (by accident)

 

[angela&avery]

oh and since i didnt lose it with the whole dvd situation (which has been a recurring problem), within just a few minutes of me being in another room ( i was getting myself ready and she WAS getting dressed or so I thought) she decided to put a ton of stuff in her fish tank.

I feel like she is looking for a reaction.

 

[captain optimism]

Wow! I am so impressed that you have just stopped yelling! I decided from the beginning that i wouldn't yell...and you know what, i sometimes lose my cool and do anyway! Not often, but I still feel bad. So start out by giving yourself some credit for doing something really challenging.

My son is younger than yours and he has suddenly begun to do crazy things whenever we aren't in the same room together. You know, like unwinding toilet paper rolls, dumping food on himself--that sort of thing. It does sometimes feel like he's trying to get a reaction! Though sometimes also I think he's just experimenting more boldly than before. My guy is too little to answer the question "why did you do that?" I say "Why did you do that?" and he says, "yeah."

i think it's okay to say "I am upset about the cereal all over the table" even if you aren't yelling and blowing your stack. My direction is generally "We're going to clean this up." Sometimes we do have conflict about that, but okay, whatever, make a mess, clean it up. Mommy can live through the conflict without getting upset!

With the DVDs, if they are too irresistible, put them out of her reach. Lock them in a cabinet. DVDs are interesting even if she doesn't want a reaction! They have data on them and they are inherently pretty and shiny even if you can't get the movie to play.

I'm also kind of caught up in interpreting which behaviors he did by accident, which he did to see what it would be like, and which were an experiment to see what i would do! So to the extent i can, i try not to have a big reaction. If he did it by accident, a big reaction is unfair. if he did it as an experiment, a big reaction will provoke more experimentation in that direction!

 

[ShaggyDaddy]

I think that if you would normally yell, you should really express those exact same feelings in a conversational way. For me holding the anger in is worse than yelling.

Ask yourself why the behavior makes you mad, then tell your child (age apropriate of course) why.

"Oh man, it bothers me when you play with the DVDs because I'm worried they will get scratched then we won't be able to watch the movies we like"

I find putting a fine head on the source for the anger really helps minimize its effect on me. Sometimes I am a little too dollar oriented, but sometimes it really helps me to say in my head "Oh man, you are totally wasting $.05 worth of toilet paper" Helps me remember that a nickle is not worth fighting over. On the other hand it also helps me say "Dude, I am not going to let you ruin $100 worth of DVDs"

I am not saying I quantify all of my son's destruction or playing or anything, but it is a really useful tool if I am on the fence in a "pick your battles" "Diffuse the situation" moment.

I am a big fan of natural consequences and the part I love the most (at least in the way I understand/practice it) is that it really doesn't matter if the behavior was an accident or on purpose. Since the "milk is spilled" either way, "it was an accident" doesn't become a CYA catch all excuse. And since you are not really "punishing" them either way, it is not overly harsh to treat willful behavior the same as accidental behavior. Especially because I believe a child's social clumsiness is very simmilar to his physical clumsiness.

 

[Magella]

You know, if I'm at a complete loss as to what to do or say I'll just opt for doing/saying nothing for a bit. It's okay to do that. It gives me some space to center myself and take a fresh look at things and figure out what the best response is likely to be.

I wonder, if you think she's looking for a reaction, why do you think she might be doing that? I don't think kids look for reactions just for the sake of looking for reactions, I think that if a child were really looking for a reaction that might be a sign that the child is looking for some connection, some attention. Or it could be that they're learning, trying to figure out what their parents think of this or that or *why* their parents say this or that. So I think if you have some sense as to why she might be looking for a reaction (if indeed that is the case), you'll have some insight as to how to best handle it in a proactive way.

Also, consider that your children's reasons for what they do might actually be different from what you think their reasons are. So it can be a big help to take a step back and look at the situation from a new perspective. And it can help to separate your feelings/needs/assumptions/desires/expectations/etc. out from your observation of what's happening--to recognize what's yours and not let it color your observations. KWIM? That doesn't mean ignore your own needs and feelings, just recognize that your stuff is your stuff and might have nothing to do with what they did and their stuff. Does that make sense? This helps me see more clearly what's going on so I can respond more effectively. I have to remind myself of this a thousand times a day.

Any you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with "I'm feeling pretty frustrated because I see cereal all over the floor. I'd like you to help me clean it up."

And sometimes, though it's hard for me to remember at times, there's really no need to get into "what happened" or "why"--all that's needed is "oh, it spilled. Let's clean it up, you get the sponge and I'll get the broom." KWIM?

And as captain optimism said, a lot of the time kids do things to learn-to see what will happen, to figure out how things work, to explore their world. And I also agree that being very proactive helps. Do put away those DVDs if they're irresistible. Or sit with her and let her explore them safely, show her how to handle them so they don't get scratched--and maybe then it'll be out of her system. Proactive is much, much easier than responding once there's already a problem. I have to remind myself of that every day too.

 

[angela&avery]

one of the problems I have run into was that we live in a very small apartment and we dont have a whole lot of places up and away to put things. Most of the time this isnt a problem anymore. A recurring incident is the dvd thing which happens once in a while.. then the fish tank thing. When we got to the fish tank thing I felt like, becuase I hadnt gotten upset at the other thing, she was testing to see if I would if she did that too.. The fish tank is something we had a problem with at one time that we havent had a problem with in a while.

Oh and I do still yell, just not crazy yelling and not yelling for five minutes about nothing in particular..... Im not losing it anymore. I havent been able to completely stop, but I am gaining control. My problem is what to do with the anger... which many of you have mentioned answers to. I just dont always know what to do, whats natural, how to get the point across without yelling...

I guess i need to work on understanding that the anger is more about me and that the kids arent doing anything wrong.....

I like how somebody mentioned that it doesnt matter what the reason is behind the mess, cleaning it up needs to happen and asking that of them is the next step.

ok guys, so what tricks do you have for not losing it when siblings fight (i have asked this before, sledg has answered before).. lately my biggest problem is in the car........

 

[Magella]

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela&avery When we got to the fish tank thing I felt like, becuase I hadnt gotten upset at the other thing, she was testing to see if I would if she did that too..

Oh, that makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela&avery Oh and I do still yell, just not crazy yelling and not yelling for five minutes about nothing in particular..... Im not losing it anymore. I havent been able to completely stop, but I am gaining control. My problem is what to do with the anger... which many of you have mentioned answers to. I just dont always know what to do, whats natural, how to get the point across without yelling...

I've had to just keep practicing ways of communicating that aren't yelling, that are honest and full expressions of what I'm feeling, that aren't threatening, and that are simple enough for my kids to understand. And none of it has felt natural at first, that comes with practice and can take quite awhile. And for me, it keeps evolving and I do keep taking backwards steps more regularly than I'd like. I think that's normal. Despite the backwards steps, I'm pretty proud of how far I've come. Personally, I like Non Violent Communication. This is a method that has helped me a lot, both in terms of how I communicate and in terms of how I understand my own and others' behaviors. It feels totally unnatural at first, but as someone (Gandhi?) said: "do not confuse that which is natural with that which is habitual." Habits are comfortable, so change feels unnatural-but that doesn't mean that what we're changing to is unnatural, it's just not habitual yet.

Also, just spending time learning to get centered, be mindful, relax helps a lot. That can carry over into the more stressful, challenging times. Fill the tank before you need the fuel, so it's not empty when you need it. KWIM?

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela&avery I guess i need to work on understanding that the anger is more about me and that the kids arent doing anything wrong.....

This is where NVC was particularly helpful to me. Helped me understand that my anger is much more about me and my own needs, thoughts, assumptions, values, etc. than about my kids. Their behaviors are often the trigger, but not really the cause. Hitting is a big trigger for me. I'd say that hitting is wrong, sure, but of course that's not like some universal law without exceptions (yk, is it wrong to hit in self-defense? there are gray areas). What's important in understanding my anger about hitting is that I value being gentle with others, I have a need for everyone in my family to be safe, I value resolving conflicts without hitting, I value living in a peaceful home. So when I see one of my kids hit the other, I feel angry because my need for safety isn't met and because the action I'm seeing does not match what I value. When I'm understanding this, I'm not blaming my child and am free to look for ways of helping my child learn to meet her needs in other ways. And I'm less angry and less likely to yell.

Then, too, I get less angry when I see that my kids' behaviors arise from their own needs, that they're not doing [whatever] just to annoy me or to be bad or because they're selfish but because they are trying to get their own needs met and lack the skill at that time to attempt to meet their needs in a better way. I heard a psychologist saying that we all lose some of our ability to think and problem solve when we're frustrated. He illustrated by saying it's as if we lose 15 IQ points when frustrated, and some of us adults and kids lose like 30. I regularly lose much more than that, and so I can understand how my kids can be such wonderful problem-solvers when they're happy and calm but seem to revert to having no skills when they're upset/frustrated/angry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela&avery ok guys, so what tricks do you have for not losing it when siblings fight (i have asked this before, sledg has answered before).. lately my biggest problem is in the car........

I have? Was it really wise and profound?

I am in sibling-fighting h*ll right now. I could use wise and profound. What keeps me from losing it is getting involved as little as possible in their fights, taking a lot of deep breaths, being aware of which of my own stuff is contributing to my anger (you know, if it's just too frickin' loud and my ears hurt and I'm overwhelmed I need to be aware of that-then I can have them go argue somewhere else or turn off the radio or something. If I'm needing some harmony then I need to work with them on their problem-solving skills, and I need to keep them busy and at least somewhat separate). Ignoring it is good, letting it roll right off and not letting it bug me. In the car, if fighting is a recurrent problem, everyone gets separated far enough that there can be no aggression (we have a van, so this is possible). Otherwise, if it gets too loud I pull over (as long as it's safe to do so) until they're quiet-can't drive safely if they're being too loud.

Hope you're having a good day.

 

[angela&avery]

once again, thank you sledg. I really appreciate the time you take to answer my questions. Knowing that you have a hard time too really helps me to not feel so alone. What is NVC? i forget

.

Oh and I have considered putting one of them in the front seat. I have an suv, so I dont have lots of seating options. I havent done this yet, but Ive considered it (no airbags). My oldest is 5 so while he is he bigger he isnt as big as he really should be..

I guess one of my biggest triggers is the fighting. My brother and I fought and I always wanted for my ds to not be so jealous (my brother was sooo jealous when I was born) so I have always tried to make sure that his cup was full even after dd was born. I guess thats why its so frusterating. I have to say though, that they do really get along and enjoy each other at times too, which I dont ever remember about my relationship with my brother until we were teenagers. As kids I felt like he hated me, and I dont feel like that is the case with my two.

I feel like its a cause and effect for both of them.. If i do this, he/she will holler and get upset. (and maybe get moms attention bc she cant stand it either).

The noise level is a HUGE trigger for me with the fighting and as we live in a small apartment, its hard to get away from it sometimes..... (my dd has a very loud voice and is very dramatic). I have seriously considered using my Ipod in the car.

we are working on getting a house, so I think that would help too. A safe place outside to send ds would be great, and an Upstairs bedroom for seperation too... we are also hoping for basement playroom possibilities.

as far as ignoring, how far do you go? My dd is not quite three and is very rough and hurts when she gets angry sometimes, and when she does ds does it back. HOw far do I let this go? They are both grabby sometimes too, ds tends to grab things from dd. The problem is I dont always know who did it, so I end up taking away the toy and then I have to hear it from both

:

im telling ya, they slept over grammies last night and I went to get them this morning, they are soooooooo tired and cranky.....7

 

[Magella]

shhhhh...I'm hiding from my kids. We're having a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

So NVC is Non Violent Communication.

I once bought ear plugs to dampen the noise (not just the fighting, but the absurdly high volume of their voices). Unfortunately then my own voice was too loud. Can't win.

WRT the fighting, I don't know if ignore is quite the right word. When they're reasonably calm and it seems like they can handle it themselves reasonably well, if asked I just say "i think you can work it out with your sibling." Then I pay attention but do my best to not let it bug me. I don't ignore when there's any sign that aggression is coming. Usually I can tell: my oldest is likely to hit whenever she gets pi$$ed, my middle one almost never hits, my 2.5 year old might hit because she's 2.5. So I kind of have a feel, and if I'm on my game I'll get close when I sense it coming. My oldest has some issues, and she's strong so I don't think I can let any aggression go-no grabbing, no yelling, no nothing. This is my frustration. I don't want to get involved, but the potential for someone getting hurt once anything like grabbing or screaming has begun (or has been attempted) is usually too high to just let them work it out. No, I don't think anyone's ever in any danger of a visit to the emergency room but my littler ones deserve to not be hit. Even if it's my 2.5 year old hitting, well she can't hurt them but I think she needs to learn another way and needs my help to do that. They get along really well much of the time, though, which is nice. Mostly we sort of survive the fighting, and talk later if necessary.

Now I'm going to resume my horrid day. Soon all will be well, we're going for a car ride to dh's work, I'll drop two off there to have fun and cure their bad moods, and then I'll bring the oldest to martial arts class where she will be miraculously cured (for the evening and early morning) of any bad mood, aggression, inflexibility and explosiveness. It's like magic, she loves it and I'm looking forward to it.