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Discussion Starter #1
OK. That is less than 0.01%, but why get a vaccine against a disease if there is a chance of getting the disease? Why bother with the risk of the vaccine if one will suffer the risk of the disease too? The cases are in the older age groups.

 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
The flu shot is notorious for causing GBS. Look at VAERS reports.

That is NOT a coincidence. 45 years ago 60 minutes interviews a woman and her husband who got GBS after the swine flu vaccine. She died of cancer in 2012 and her husband blamed the flu shot for that.

If the drug companies would be honest about their dangerous product, more people would trust them.

See the interchange between Rand and Fauci, both medical doctors. Both know from their careers that vaccines can cause reactions, yet Fauci keeps dancing around that fact. So fewer and fewer people trust them.
 

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OK. That is less than 0.01%, but why get a vaccine against a disease if there is a chance of getting the disease? Why bother with the risk of the vaccine if one will suffer the risk of the disease too? The cases are in the older age groups.

People do it to reduce the chance of getting the disease. That link says, “Large-scale clinical studies found that COVID-19 vaccines reduced the risk of contracting the disease in vaccinated individuals by up to 95%, compared with those who were not vaccinated.” People generally prefer to have a smaller chance of getting a disease, even if it they can’t have a zero chance.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
"People do it to reduce the chance of getting the disease. "

OK, however the vaccine is recommended for EVERYBODY, including those unfortunate enough to have had the disease. So how is that a smaller chance? People who have had the disease, recovered and need to take the risk of the vaccine? Where is the science in that? If that is experimental, let us know.

There is NO such thing as a ZERO risk of getting the disease, as the 100 in the article attests to .

Do not forget that this vaccine is not approved by the FDA as GRAS. This vaccine is EUA for the next two years, so anyone getting the vaccine is participating in an immense experiment. In the meantime, let us know that the science is still out there - we do not know if the virus imparts longterm immunity or any immunity at all; we do not know if the vaccine imparts long term, short term,or any immunity at all but govt wants to require proof of vaccination for access.

People need to make their own decisions based on the best available information. We live with the decisions we make for ourselves, so let us make that decision.
 
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There is growing evidence that people - especially those who had an asymptomatic or mild infection the first time- can get COVID again and that it tends to be a more severe case the second time around. See this study from the CDC that looked at two separate outbreaks 3 months apart at a nursing facility that showed that out of the 12 residents who were infected in the first outbreak and still lived at the facility, 5 got infected again. Three of those 5 who got reinfected had asymptomatic infections the first time:

A CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report published Friday had similar findings, and further suggested that some patients could develop more severe cases of Covid-19 upon reinfection than they experienced the first time were infected with the novel coronavirus.

For the report, researchers looked at two separate outbreaks that occurred three months apart at a skilled nursing facility in Kentucky. The first outbreak at the facility occurred in July 2020, with a total of 20 of the facilities' 115 residents and five of the facilities' 143 health care providers testing positive for the coronavirus. In total, eight of the residents were hospitalized for Covid-19 and five died. None of the health care providers were hospitalized or died as a result of the outbreak.

According to the researchers, the facility continued to conduct regular testing of its providers and residents over the next three months. From Sept. 1 to Oct. 29 of last year, the facility conducted 928 diagnostic tests for its providers and residents, and all of those tests came back negative.

But on Oct. 30, 2020, the facility reported to the Kentucky Department for Public Health that two of its residents were experiencing symptoms of Covid-19 and had tested positive for the coronavirus. Ultimately, between Oct. 30 and Dec. 7, 2020, a total of 85 residents and 43 health care providers at the facility tested positive.

According to the researchers, among 12 of the residents who tested positive during the first outbreak and were still living at the facility in October, five—ranging in age from 67 to 99—tested positive again during the second outbreak.

Three of the five residents had asymptomatic infections during the first outbreak, but all residents experienced symptoms of Covid-19 during the second infection. One required hospitalization and later died, the researchers noted.

Further, according to the researchers, the two residents who had symptomatic cases of Covid-19 during the first outbreak experienced more severe symptoms during their second infection.
The researchers said their findings were "noteworthy" because they suggest that people with asymptomatic cases of Covid-19 during their first infections "do not produce a sufficiently robust immune response to prevent infection" again.

Further, the researchers added that their findings "suggest the possibility that disease can be more severe during a second infection" (O'Reilly, Axios, 2/25; Higgins-Dunn, CNBC, 2/25; Walker, MedPage Today, 2/25; Harvey et. al., JAMA Internal Medicine, 2/24; Cavanaugh et. al., Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 2/26).
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Those people who are in facilities are immune - compromised to begin with. Laying in the same building breathing the same air and getting sick AGAIN, of course, is predictable. The Greeks have a name for it - nosocomial. Who needs two studies from the CDC to demonstrate that fact?
The first people I knew who were sick with covid19 were nurses in such "facilities".

However the 100/1.2M people in WA state who got covid post vaccination is the subject here. Do not change the subject.

Why are people who got the vaccine for immunity and protection against the disease, getting the disease? That is the question.
 

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You asked above why someone who had already had COVID would get the vaccine. The nursing facility was just one example. Reinfection is not something that is only happening to elderly or immunocompromised people. Evidence is starting to show that people who had asymptomatic or mild infections don't appear to mount as strong of an immune response to the virus and are at risk of contracting it again and even getting a more severe case the second time.

"Why are people who got the vaccine for immunity and protection against the disease, getting the disease? That is the question."

Because the vaccine is not 100 percent effective nor has it ever claimed to be? It significantly reduces the risk of infection and hospitalization/death and not by a negligible amount. This is the nirvana fallacy - that if something is not 100 percent effective, it is useless. That is simply not true. It's like asking: why do people wear helmets and seatbelts if they can't prevent 100% of brain damage and deaths?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Ah, the Nirvana Fallacy - now it has a name! Cute! The vaccine is not useless for the shareholders. (You do not know what Nirvana is, do you?)

You can sue the seatbelt and helmut manufacturer if you use their product and they fail to perform. Can you sue the vaccine manufacturer? We have been down this well-worn road before. Have you learned nothing?

Are people being kept out of airplanes, trains, buses, theatres, markets, churches, or schools because they do not wear seatbelts or helmuts?

The vaccine is EUA, not approved to be safe or effective, for two years. No one really knows how long the immunity will last if at all, if the vaccine recipient can transfer the disease to someone else, or if the recipient will get ill from the vaccine or get the disease. Who knows? The vaccine has only been available for barely five months. That is NOT a very long time - if you got the vaccine, you are a lab rat. Doctors are saying that the technology that made this vaccine has been around for ten years, so why is it rolled out now? Why was this vaccine not used before?
 

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Go ahead and try refusing to wear a seatbelt on a plane and let me know how that goes.

I can't believe anti-vaxxers are still peddling the lie that you can't sue vaccine manufacturers. Explain what this is then. I'll wait. Baum Hedlund Files Merck Gardasil Lawsuit on Behalf of Young Man

For the lurkers, you can sue vaccine manufacturers, you just have to go through the vaccine court first. If you lose or don't agree with the settlement, you are free to sue them directly. In fact, RFK has filed at least 6 lawsuits against Merck, the most recent of which within the last few months. Eagle Scout Sues Merck, Alleges Gardasil HPV Vaccine Destroyed His Life • Children's Health Defense
 

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More good news from vaccine land Johnson & Johnson Vaccine Site Shut Down After 11 People Suffer Reactions, 2 Hospitalized • Children's Health Defense

The first J&J COVID vaccine was administered in the U.S. on March 2. The latest CDC data on adverse reactions to COVID vaccines shows that as of March 26, of the 50,861 adverse reactions reported to VAERS for Pfizer, Moderna and J&J COVID vaccines, 2,797 adverse reactions, including 29 deaths, were attributed to the J&J vaccine.


Between March 2 and March 26, VAERS data showed 518 reports of anaphylactic reactions to J&J’s COVID vaccine, which is distributed under the company’s Janssen subsidiary. There were also seven cases of Bell’s Palsy reported during the same period.
 
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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Go ahead and try refusing to wear a seatbelt on a plane and let me know how that goes.
What are you complaining about? I said that one can sue the seatbelt manufacturers if their product fails to perform as promised, but not the vaccine manufacturers. Yes, you can sue the seatbelt, helmut, carseat, and even gun manufacturers if their product does not perform as promised.

As for suing the vaccine manufacturers directly, RFK Jr is an environmental attorney suing on behalf of others who can afford his prices. Federal vaccine court uses different rules of evidence and there is little to NO discovery done, which was done prior to 1986. Often the SOL have tolled on the damage done by vaccinations by the time the federal court has heard the case so going the regular way is often impossible. Please read the real world experience of a parent sharing the experiences of himself and other parents in federal vaccine court - new edition is out June 15. The Vaccine Court: The Dark Truth of America's Vaccine Injury Compensation Program: Rohde, Wayne, Kennedy, Robert Jr. F.: 9781510758377: Amazon.com: Books

Keep in mind that the main federal medical responder in federal vaccine court in the Poling case was Hannah's God-father. It is one big happy family there. Do you think you will have the same political pull as the Poling family?

Or you may want to read the experience of the Bruesewitz family in Bruesewitz v Wyeth. They sued in federal court also - their daughter's injury was removed from the table of injuries just a month before they filed. They lost. They did the civil trial routine as teacozy advises, and the case was settled AGAINST them when their daughter was 19-20 years old; that is hardly justice. That is cruel.

 

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There is growing evidence that people - especially those who had an asymptomatic or mild infection the first time- can get COVID again and that it tends to be a more severe case the second time around. See this study from the CDC that looked at two separate outbreaks 3 months apart at a nursing facility that showed that out of the 12 residents who were infected in the first outbreak and still lived at the facility, 5 got infected again. Three of those 5 who got reinfected had asymptomatic infections the first time:
And vaccines can't cause the same problem? It happened in the past with vaccines for coronavirus when they used the vaccine on ferrets.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
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Discussion Starter #16
Vaers reports - Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)

Remember 1-10% of all reactions are reported per Harvard and other sources.

deaths 2342
severe allergic rxn 3145
hospitalizations 4972
urgent care 8975
office visits 8744
anaphylaxis 412
bell's palsy 460
heart attacks 502
miscarriages 84
 
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Vaers reports - Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)

Remember 1-10% of all reactions are reported per Harvard and other sources.

deaths 2342
severe allergic rxn 3145
hospitalizations 4972
urgent care 8975
office visits 8744
anaphylaxis 412
bell's palsy 460
heart attacks 502
miscarriages 84
I've been wondering if medical staff are more conscious of the need to report, these being experimental vaccines that are still included in study protocols or reluctant to report because they fear that injury reports will undermine the vaccine program.
 

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Interesting case study from Germany. Patients in a care facility got COVID from someone on the mobile vaccination team (or possibly an employee of the facility). Nine patients of 26 infected died. Three residents who refused the vaccine tested positive but "showed a mild course of the disease". Comments I've seen about this tended to focus on the fact that the patients hadn't received the second dose of the vaccine and also to point out that any vaccine can be expected to be less effective on the elderly.

SARS-CoV-2 outbreak in a long-term care facility after vaccination with BNT162b2
The median age of all residents was 88 years and 61/76 (80%) were female. The vaccination itself was not associated with any serious adverse events in this cohort. Serial PCR testings identified SARS-CoV-2 infections in 26/76 (34%) residents. Positive cases were detected 7 days (1), 14 days (10), 20 days (12) and 23 days (3) after the first vaccination (Figure 1). Only 3/26 (12%) residents were symptomatic at the time of diagnosis while 12/26 (46%) positively tested residents developed symptoms in the further course. Overall case fatality rate was 9/26 (35%). Of note, 5 of the 9 patients with fatal outcome were diagnosed on day 20 after vaccination. All three residents who refused to receive a BNT162b2 vaccination were tested positive, but showed mild courses of the disease.
 

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Interesting case study from Germany. Patients in a care facility got COVID from someone on the mobile vaccination team (or possibly an employee of the facility). Nine patients of 26 infected died. Three residents who refused the vaccine tested positive but "showed a mild course of the disease". Comments I've seen about this tended to focus on the fact that the patients hadn't received the second dose of the vaccine and also to point out that any vaccine can be expected to be less effective on the elderly.

SARS-CoV-2 outbreak in a long-term care facility after vaccination with BNT162b2
Quite interesting. Teacozy has linked to articles/studies that people who experience mild cases of Covid with a first infection, can experience more severe cases if reinfected. Is it possible that the first dose of the BNT162b2 (mRNA) vaccine acted as a mild initial infection, resulting in severe symptoms with a natural 2nd infection prior to receiving the 2nd vaccine dose? This is also the reason given for the 2nd dose of mRNA vaccines having stronger side-effects.
Why Your 2nd Dose of COVID Vaccine Is Likely to Feel Worse
That's because the second dose is amplifying the lessons of the first dose, which taught your body how to recognize the coronavirus as an enemy...
I have a friend in her 20s who was infected with Covid after receiving her first Moderna vaccine. She was severely ill and bedridden for 5 days. Perhaps more ill than one would expect for someone of her age and general good health, but who knows? Unless one could view an alternate timeline where she was infected prior to receiving her 1st dose, and then compare the course of the 2 illnesses, it's all conjecture. (But, it's interesting conjecture!)

There are other instances of vaccines inducing greater pathology with subsequent viral infection. Most of the research has been with chronic viral infections, such as HIV, and is not necessarily indicative of what we should expect with Covid vaccines. Although, there is increasing evidence that in some individuals Covid infection may be chronic (Long Covid).
Vaccination Alters the Balance between Protective Immunity, Exhaustion, Escape, and Death in Chronic Infections
Research into the design and testing of vaccines against chronic infections should be aware of the possibility of the generation of vaccine-induced pathology.
 

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Interesting case study from Germany. Patients in a care facility got COVID from someone on the mobile vaccination team (or possibly an employee of the facility). Nine patients of 26 infected died. Three residents who refused the vaccine tested positive but "showed a mild course of the disease". Comments I've seen about this tended to focus on the fact that the patients hadn't received the second dose of the vaccine and also to point out that any vaccine can be expected to be less effective on the elderly.

SARS-CoV-2 outbreak in a long-term care facility after vaccination with BNT162b2
There are several interesting coincidences present in that account. But I doubt anyone will follow up on these coincidences.
 
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