[Hokulele]

So DD is 3.5 yrs old. I know, three is hard. But this has been escalating and escalating. I don't think what she's doing is necessarily bad behaviour, it is an inability to handle her own strong emotions.

DD had issues at a lunch today with a bunch of moms and kids. Things escalated, she was screaming out of control, I had the baby slung against my chest so I couldn't hold DD very well to calm her. All I could do is get us out of the restaurant as fast as I could. As we left (DD screaming the whole time) the entire restaurant clapped and yelled stuff at us like "Finally!"

My mother visited a couple days ago and told me that DD is "just like me" meaning difficult and naughty. Yet in the same conversation told me that DD's "behavioural issues" are because I am a bad mom. (Thanks!)

What gets DD going is a problem with letting go. We can't throw anything out, we can't let the water out of the bathtub, we can't flush the toilet without tears and stress over losing whatever it is we are getting rid of. DH and I have taken to removing the trash, flushing, draining after DD is asleep at night because it just isn't worth the awful emotions she experiences.

Today's restaurant experience started with her thinking I hadn't gotten enough sauce from her plate into the to-go box, kept asking me to scrape more up, didn't want to leave even a speck. Then one of her friends and his mom got up to leave and she just lost it. Didn't want them to leave until she'd said goodbye, didn't want to say goodbye because then they'd leave.

I'm just so upset. I know onlookers were thinking I should punish her, but what she was feeling was real and intense was was no way meant to manipulate me, she was protecting herself.

Please, as anyone ever been up against this? Does anyone have any advice? I just can't go on like this, I can't let this happen to DD anymore.

 

[Daphneduck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokulele So DD is 3.5 yrs old. I know, three is hard. But this has been escalating and escalating. I don't think what she's doing is necessarily bad behaviour, it is an inability to handle her own strong emotions. DD had issues at a lunch today with a bunch of moms and kids. Things escalated, she was screaming out of control, I had the baby slung against my chest so I couldn't hold DD very well to calm her. All I could do is get us out of the restaurant as fast as I could. As we left (DD screaming the whole time) the entire restaurant clapped and yelled stuff at us like "Finally!" My mother visited a couple days ago and told me that DD is "just like me" meaning difficult and naughty. Yet in the same conversation told me that DD's "behavioural issues" are because I am a bad mom. (Thanks!) What gets DD going is a problem with letting go. We can't throw anything out, we can't let the water out of the bathtub, we can't flush the toilet without tears and stress over losing whatever it is we are getting rid of. DH and I have taken to removing the trash, flushing, draining after DD is asleep at night because it just isn't worth the awful emotions she experiences. Today's restaurant experience started with her thinking I hadn't gotten enough sauce from her plate into the to-go box, kept asking me to scrape more up, didn't want to leave even a speck. Then one of her friends and his mom got up to leave and she just lost it. Didn't want them to leave until she'd said goodbye, didn't want to say goodbye because then they'd leave. I'm just so upset. I know onlookers were thinking I should punish her, but what she was feeling was real and intense was was no way meant to manipulate me, she was protecting herself. Please, as anyone ever been up against this? Does anyone have any advice? I just can't go on like this, I can't let this happen to DD anymore.

Boldis mine. I am horrified that adults would act this way! I am embarrassed for them and sad for you and your DD. I'm so sorry, Mama.

I don't have any advice, I just could not read that and not respond. Hugs to you and your DD. I am sure that you will get some great advice. I have not dealt with these particular problems, but I know that many have and you are definitely not alone.

 

[Hokulele]

Oh, thank you. Just an understanding ear (computer screen) helps enormously. I'm still in tears over it, it was so awful.

 

[RunAround]

You have one of those spirited children on your hands! The good news is that spirited children can become creative, courageous, delightful adults. The bad news is that you might feel you won't survive to see it!

Please try not to let the utter and complete rudeness of those strangers get to you...too much.

Have you read The Spirited Child and the Happiest Toddler on the Block? Those were useful in helping me get inside my oldest son's head a bit.

I have a guideline for coaching my kids that might not work for others. While I want my kids to stretch and grow, I also hope they have more successes than failures. Soooo...I tend to avoid public situations where good behavior is unlikely. This means restaurants. We don't do restaurants with the exception of a quick casual (no waitstaff!!) restaurant a few times a year. We don't do things after nap/dark, especially things where my kids can't be...kids. Pretty much, we manage the boys like they are potential gremlins. (Remember the movie? Anyone? Bueller?)

As far as your daughter's reluctance to let go, maybe you could find more areas where she can take control of herself and her circumstances? I have no concrete ideas here (sorry!

). It might not reduce the situations you're living with, but over time it might build her confidence that her world isn't totally out of control.

 

[churndash]

The people in the restaurant were rude, shame on them.

My youngest daughter is also a very emotional child. She feels things very intensely. I tell her she has a big heart, and she feels things in a big way. When she's happy, she's soooo happy, when she's sad, she's sooooo sad.

I did the same things you do - wait until she's asleep to throw things away, take her out of the bath before draining it, etc.

I don't know what to tell you, except that I'm sure you're not a bad parent. I'm no expert, but it sounds like she's anxious about something. How is she coping with the new sibling? Does she feel like she's "lost" your attention somehow, with her sister's arrival? Has anything else unusual happened to the family routine?

With my daughter, it helped to give her a certain amount of things to "hoard" and a place to put them. "You can keep all the paper scraps you can fit in this shoebox, the rest we throw away." Or I would take digital pictures of her drawings so she could still look at them. If people leaving are what causes her anxiety, just lots of hugs and assurances that they will come back. My daughter cried everytime her grandma visited and then left, so I'd have grandma call from the airport, call when the plane landed, etc.

I agree that it's not a behavior problem. It's learning how to cope with strong feelings.

Another thing that did work for me was to remain calm (even though I often wanted to cry just as much as she was crying!!") Kids pick up on our feelings. Maybe trying to be matter of fact and light hearted "Yes it is sad when we say goodbye to our friends. But we can think about seeing them again soon, and how much fun that will be!"

 

[mamatoady]

FWIW, when my dd was 3.5 she was afraid of the wind. She would freak out if the sun unbrella was lightly blowing in the wind (thought it would blow away), if she looked out the window and a piece of paper was going with the breeze. Once the neighbors trash blew over and it was all flying across the yard and she started screaming at me to go and get it. We had tried to put her in soccer that summer and had to take her out because she started crying about the coaches papers blowing under his clip board. If something fell out of the truck when we got in she would freak thinking the wind would take it away.

It was a phase...a long one that lasted an entire summer. We kept our cool, talked about the wind and what it is and that sometimes things blow away and it's ok. We talked about how frustrated she was and how sad it is to lose things we like (like a balloon that got away)...and we just basically acknowledged her fears as they came up and let her feel sad or upset if she needed to. Sometimes forknowledge of what might occur and talking about it first was helpful. It can be difficult, but for example, talk to dd about the tub being drained after the bath and that it's ok because it goes outside to the ground and the grass just loves it...if she still gets upset, that's ok too, just love her through it.

sooo, you aren't the only one going through things like this. Getting a grasp on this world can be hard for little ones.

Sarah

 

[BoringTales]

How long was she causing a disturbance in the restaurant before you took her out?

 

[Porcelain Interior]

Try not to take people too personally. I'm sure we can all imagine a time before we had kids- or maybe even now and how hard it is to listen to kids having tantrums. It has to be one of the most difficult types of noise to deal with. Especially when it's someone else's kid. Though I have the tendency to thank my lucky stars and smile gently at the mom because I know she isn't the cause and is doing her best.

Most humans react by just wanting the noise to stop. So if you allowed her to continue on and on inside the restaurant I can see why people clapped- they shouldn't have done it (I think it's extremely immature and rude), but I can understand why they were relieved. I personally get very anxious and annoyed when I'm in an eating establishment and a child is throwing a tantrum and it continues on and on (say after 15 min without letting up) and they aren't removed. I cannot stand the noise. I'm sure many people are this way. If you had a tantrum your own child would probably want to run from the noise.

You sound like a very sweet person trying to do the best you can. In the future maybe prepare ahead of time for things like this- and begin helping her to understand that if she becomes loud or behaves inappropriately in public she has to go home/to the car. Don't continue trying to reason with a screaming child. It's just time to leave once they lose it. Maybe it will only take one or two times. And I don't think she needs to be punished, but learn the consequences. When you freak out you can't stay in the restaurant. Or when you freak out people don't want to be in the same room with you. It's very natural and I think she'll learn quickly to regulate her emotions. By quickly I mean a year or so.

It's a phase, and it won't last forever.

I think you are a great mom, and that you need to seperate people's reaction to the noise your child was making and not personalize it.

 

[BCFD]

My oldest dd has a HUGE fear of alarms (door alarms, smoke alarms, etc.) and the wind freaks her out, too. Last night we were at a restaurant eating with friends (between us we had 6 kids (ages 6, 4, 3, 2, 2, 3 mo.) and the kids started getting rambunctious and running around. One of them tried to open the emergency exit and when I said, "Lets stay away from that door because a loud alarm will sound" dd *LOST* it. Her baby sister (2) went over to the door and she screamed so loud that a hush fell over the restaurant!

I just wanted to offer you my support and tell you that I can understand. Shame on those people for clapping and shame on your mother!!!!!

 

[BoringTales]

I think its entirely inappropriate to have a crying tantruming child in a restaurant for longer than 3ish minutes. Once its clear its going to continue you need to remove yourself from the situation.

I think clapping and saying things to you was HIGHLY immature and I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm just wondering how long one would have to be in a restaurant causing a disturbance for that to happen.

My 2 cents? What she was feeling is normal, but how she was expressing those feelings is not socially acceptable and needs to be corrected. It takes time and patience and consistancy, but its doable.

Or, this could just be one of those 'stages' and you may need to change your habits a bit for a while to suit your child's needs. Eating out might not be an option for a while. Start encouraging appropraite 'restaurant' behavior at the dinner table and tell her you are practicing.

We are currently on hiatus from eating out. Not only for financial reasons, but because its more work than its worth at the moment. We have an almost 5 year old, a 3.5 year old, and a 1.5 year old. I'm not paying $10+ for my dinner and then not even be able to eat it hot!

When we eat dinner I encourage them to display the same behavior I'd expect in a restaurant. Stay seated, use quiet normal voices (no yelling or screeching), use manners, be polite, sit at the table until we are finished eating, keep the food where it belongs, etc, etc. It isn't always successful, but slowly they are catching on!

 

[karika]

Maybe staying home for now is a good idea while you try to get to the bottom of what is going on for your dd. I have noticed dd1 has fits after ingesting certain things. Some of the worst are after a happy meal with a hamburger. i dont buy them anymore. other things Like food coloring, sugar, chocolate create fits too. I still buy these things as I am mostly into consensual living (I just found out it has a name a few weeks ago) and I let her make many of her own decisions. i also like to eat it, so i dont like to tell her no when i am eating it. I just advise her of the consequences and how it reacts with her.

I also wonder if our children are more in touch with their past life (or lives) because we are AP and so they are so content in this life they can deal with issues from the last lives. Maybe this is a leftover issue for your dd that you can help her work through. I am racking my brain for ways to help her be okay with the letting go... but not coming up with much. I use a lot of words to communicate what is happening all the time. dd1 did need to be out of the tub before draing too and she always needed to have the objects in there with her put up on the sides first for fear they would go down the drain. maybe there is an activity with sand and some containers that could illustrate something going from one place to the next. i will keep thinking of this.

i also think the scene at the rest was rude. someone could have offered to help you instead of just seeking to have you gone. camilla is now sleeping on my chest and typing is difficult. i like pp. i think it is wonderful you are meeting your dd's emotions so thoughtfully. and i bet some of it is underlying feelings of loss due to the new baby, i know dd1 has had some problems adjusting to my new baby.

 

[philomom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoringTales How long was she causing a disturbance in the restaurant before you took her out?

I'd ask the same thing. One or two small outbursts might be okay... but continuing to fuss and carry on is disrespectful to others.

 

[nextcommercial]

I have never had issues like that, so I don't understand what she's feeling/thinking.

But, how long was she disruptive before you left? And what kind of restaraunt was it that people were visibly relieved to see her go? And, why didn't someone physically help you? If I were there, I would have at least held the little one while you took care of dd#1.

It's always best to leave right away during a restaurant meltdown. Even if it's just for a few minutes while she regroups and has a few moments to settle down. Staying only upsets others, which upsets you, which your kids catch on to and they get more upset. It's just no fun for anyone.

At least you are understanding of her feelings. It doesn't sound like you lost your temper, and it sounds to me like you are doing everything right. Your dd may just have a hard time with those transitions. I know my dd would have meltdowns if you tore, or cut her food. Like if you opened her eggroll to let it cool down, it was now "Broken" and she was heartbroken. (a loud heartbroken)

I'm sorry that happened. I can't imagine how that felt for you when strangers were clapping. (of course i'm imagining a standing ovation, and it probably wasn't that bad.. right?)

 

[BoringTales]

The more I think about this the more it is bothering me. I can't imagine how upset I'd be if that happened to me!

Please, don't let this or your mom's comment bother you too much. Just chalk it up to a learning experience. Next time, take your daughters out of the restaurant (or where ever there is a captive audience that is paying to be there) when the melt-down first starts happening. You know your daughter. You know when it'll be a bit of protesting and when its going to turn into a scream fest.

 

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokulele DH and I have taken to removing the trash, flushing, draining after DD is asleep at night because it just isn't worth the awful emotions she experiences.

That's what we did, too, for a good year (DD is 4.25 now and is a little more flexible). We still have incidents - like when I took the base off her toddler car seat to turn it into the booster seat - my mistake and I couldn't get it back because the garbage truck had already taken it away - the meltdowns recurred for over a week and were pretty intense. Same when I removed her potty chair which she hadn't used in over 6 months and I didn't even know she remembered it (it had been in the shed).

When I need to throw something away of hers (clothes, toys, or whatever) I put them in a box for 6 months or so to make she isn't going to miss them before hiding them in the bottom of the trash can outside.

We don't go to restaurants as they are too stressful for her. I'm sure we will be able to go when she gets a bit older.

It will get better. I'm appalled by the reaction of the other people in the restaurant. How horrible of them.

 

[nextcommercial]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokulele My mother visited a couple days ago and told me that DD is "just like me" meaning difficult and naughty. Yet in the same conversation told me that DD's "behavioural issues" are because I am a bad mom. (Thanks!) .

Eh.. ignore that stuff. Moms only remember what's convenient to them at the time. That's what they do, and we will probably be the same way when our kids have kids.

 

[labdogs42]

You might be right about not going out in public for a while. I know we kind of had to step back from outings for a while when DS was about 3-3.75. he got really upset over tiny things, had major meltdowns, etc. Turns out, I think a lot of it had to do with potty learning. I think the whole process of learning to use the potty coupled with the uncertainty of where the potty was in a new place, fear of the too loud public potty, etc, just threw him for a loop for a long time. Now that he is four and seems to have completely mastered the potty, he is a changed little man! We can go out to dinner again and go places with much more regularity. I think 3.5 is a tough age. Wait a few months and see how it goes. And hugs to you. That sounds like a rough day!

Jessica

 

[vivvysue]

what an experience for you and your dd both

maybe talking about letting things go ahead of time, how people leaving will come back, that the water goes back to the ocean etc might help.. you know before your dd is faced with actually being in the situation.. perhaps with her dolls or toys sort of like play therapy, acting those type of situations out when she is calm and feels in control of herself and the situation might help when she is faced with it later on and you are out.

i am so sorry that the adults acted that way, even if they were feeling anxious about your dd's behaviour it was rude and unsympathetic to say the least. i remember being in a similar situation when my ds was about that age and i had a nursling in a sling on a greyhound bus

i was so thankful a college aged girl offered to take him in the seat ahead of me. she put his head and hers under a repozo and they chatted and talked until he felt calm... i was soooooo thankful for her help and understanding and my son seemed to respond to her sympathy and caring so much more than the angry people he had been disturbing earlier... i always remember it when i see moms with lo's not having the best days, and because of it these days i usually offer to help in some way

it wont last forver mama, of that you can be absolutley sure

v

 

[Greenmama2AJ]

I really agree with reading the book recommendations for Spirited Child and Happiest Toddler.
It seems your child has issues with transitions. Tantrums over flushing and taking out the trash signal "spirited" and high needs to me. Those books have excellent advice on transitions.

Children on the Aspergers continuum also hate transitions. While people might imply that if you just "taught them manners" they'd get over it, for some children (and adults) 'change' and 'loss' are really devastating. I teach and I've had Aspergers students who would totally flip out if they had unexpected change, even if it was positive! I might say "you know that test, I'm moving it to next week" and they'd be in tears all day over it!
If your child has some Asperger like characteristics they can still be intelligent (very often they are are) funny, popular and sweet individuals. But they need us to manage certain situations carefully, so that those situations dont cause our children distress.

Its hard because many parents dont understand the struggles you go through. But read those books and it will all make sense!! Goodluck

 

[mamazee]

3.5 is a hard age.

She'll outgrow the tantrums. Tantrums are hard, but kids learn through them. I personally wouldn't tiptoe too much around her - she's learning that things aren't always going to work out just how she likes, and that's a hard lesson. I'd empathize and, when she's ready, hold her and reassure her that you love her, but live your life.

As far as the restaurant goes, having a child who tantrumed like that, I'd suggest having an escape plan ready before even stepping into any restaurant. As in, "If she blows up at the restaurant, I'll quick get her outside and you get the food packed up and pay." It'll happen again. Just be ready ahead of time - I've been there where I've struggled to get things under control in the restaurant and partially just stood there like a deer in the headlights. It's understandable to not be ready to deal with it, but next time have a plan so it won't turn out like that.