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There seems to be a longstanding feud/disagreement between the listowners of those two groups. Heads up!<br><br>
Am I the only one on AIM for chat?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>whoMe</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15159650"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There seems to be a longstanding feud/disagreement between the listowners of those two groups. Heads up!<br><br>
Am I the only one on AIM for chat?</div>
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I used to have every messenger client (which is why I started using Trillian and now Pidgin) but I've forgotten my ICQ# and password and my AIM password. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> So now I'm just on MSN and Yahoo.
 

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I have an old AIM account from college. Don't know if it's "still good". (Do those things expire?)<br><br>
What's up with the disagreement? Are the protocols just opposite? or the philosophy? Hmm. Lots of reading to do. And I just remembered that I'm leading tomorrow's morning LLL meeting. I had to look at the schedule to even see what the topic is. So, add that to my to-do list.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>menomena</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15159664"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I have an old AIM account from college. Don't know if it's "still good". (Do those things expire?)<br><br>
What's up with the disagreement? Are the protocols just opposite? or the philosophy? Hmm. Lots of reading to do. And I just remembered that I'm leading tomorrow's morning LLL meeting. I had to look at the schedule to even see what the topic is. So, add that to my to-do list.</div>
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AFAIK, they never expire. I revived mine from middle/high school after college with no issues. The password just worked.<br><br>
They're pretty opposite, and... it's been a while. Catherine (vitK) takes a 'throw a million nutrients at it' approach, and doesn't have much science schooling. Susan (low oxalates) seems to have more of a science background and focuses more on dietary restriction. I've read more on the vitK group, but that was a looong time ago. Lately I've been lurking more on one of susan's groups.<br><br>
I'm kind of wondering if they don't address similar but different issues? Both take the approach of reducing oxalates in the gut, so the body can use the gut as a dumping ground for them. But I haven't really read up enough on either to suggest anything intelligent...
 

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I have yahoo im if anyone wants to reach me. lol.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>menomena</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15159362"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Just by happenstance, I came across an old post on the Trying Low Oxalates group about Vit K. The impression I got was that Vit K supplementation wasn't a good idea if you're having oxalate issues. It was by the list owner and she cited several studies. I am also on the Vit K group so I will read their evidence and see if I can't make heads nor tails of it. Then I will fire off emails to the respective owners and see if I can get some clarification.</div>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>whoMe</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15159650"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There seems to be a longstanding feud/disagreement between the listowners of those two groups. Heads up!</div>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>menomena</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15159664"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">What's up with the disagreement? Are the protocols just opposite? or the philosophy? Hmm. Lots of reading to do. And I just remembered that I'm leading tomorrow's morning LLL meeting. I had to look at the schedule to even see what the topic is. So, add that to my to-do list.</div>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>whoMe</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15159753"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">They're pretty opposite, and... it's been a while. Catherine (vitK) takes a 'throw a million nutrients at it' approach, and doesn't have much science schooling. Susan (low oxalates) seems to have more of a science background and focuses more on dietary restriction. I've read more on the vitK group, but that was a looong time ago. Lately I've been lurking more on one of susan's groups.<br><br>
I'm kind of wondering if they don't address similar but different issues? Both take the approach of reducing oxalates in the gut, so the body can use the gut as a dumping ground for them. But I haven't really read up enough on either to suggest anything intelligent...</div>
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My suspicion is that they may be addressing different issues - some kids just don't process dietary oxalates well. Other kids are actually producing oxalates internally (not in the gut, in the soft tissues, I think) as a consequence of messed up cellular processing. They're definitely at war though. The primary reason I've seen is the dispute over calcium supplementation. LOD argues you should supp lots of calcium to bind oxalates. VitK argues that supping lots of calcium will just make a problem with calcium disregulation that much worse (and FWIW, her science made sense to me).<br><br>
I suspect the best approach varies for different kids. I don't think we have a big oxalates issue, but DS clearly has huge problems with calcium disregulation - so for me, figuring out the vitK connection has been HUGE (can I tell you how awesome the past few days have been?). But he is really sensitive to calcium supps, so I never would have tried the ca supps the LOD calls for. Some people do really well on lots of calcium, and don't appear to have a calcium regulation issue (and may well have oxalates issues for another reason). For them, the LOD would seem to make a lot more sense.
 

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Well, the nurse just called back and said that the breath test will in fact show upper-GI bacterial overgrowth that the stool test won't show so they still want us to do it. I scheduled it for next Tuesday. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/guilty.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="guilty"> And to make it worse, they only schedule them at 9am, which means that DD will have to go without food or water from the night before to at least noon that day. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> Obviously, I will be waking her up after she goes to bed to have a snack. sigh.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15161213"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well, the nurse just called back and said that the breath test will in fact show upper-GI bacterial overgrowth that the stool test won't show so they still want us to do it. I scheduled it for next Tuesday. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/guilty.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="guilty"> And to make it worse, they only schedule them at 9am, which means that DD will have to go without food or water from the night before to at least noon that day. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> Obviously, I will be waking her up after she goes to bed to have a snack. sigh.</div>
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why til at least noon?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>JacquelineR</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15161393"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">why til at least noon?</div>
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It's a 3-hour test.
 

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Interesting. I'm finally starting to read some of the K2 files in the yahoo group, and she (Catherine?) is saying that they body is making excess oxalates to bind calcium. So until you can get the calcium regulated, you will continue making oxalates, making a LOD completely useless. (I know, I know... you probably already told me that Deb, but mind my is just starting to actually absorb some of the info. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue">)<br><br>
I just bought some bananas tonight and we'll start eating them tomorrow and see what happens. We were eating bananas at the same time as supping DD with calcium, so I wasn't sure exactly which one was making her crazy. But if the bananas don't make her crazy (or <i>as</i> crazy I guess), then that would be a big clue that she's not managing calcium properly, no?<br><br>
Then I just need to find a safe K2....
 

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do they know the mechanism by which the body produces oxalates to bind the calcium?
 

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She's saying they're produced by the liver, or by infectious fungi in the digestive track.<br><br>
It's in this paper- <a href="http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IP2WS37tpAxdaDe78K1juxc9__3U9l94Tqg7KB6X6MnqMvXwBkIfB2nK4PIJK9qd2TJF3XP26Z02IBzTaqslwiPSWuNG/K2Paper.pdf" target="_blank">http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IP2WS37...NG/K2Paper.pdf</a><br><br>
Also, that's oxalic acid is highly corrosive, pH in the range of 1.4-1.6. Is that why they talk about baking soda baths? Need to keep reading...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166201"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Interesting. I'm finally starting to read some of the K2 files in the yahoo group, and she (Catherine?) is saying that they body is making excess oxalates to bind calcium. So until you can get the calcium regulated, you will continue making oxalates, making a LOD completely useless. (I know, I know... you probably already told me that Deb, but mind my is just starting to actually absorb some of the info. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue">)<br><br>
I just bought some bananas tonight and we'll start eating them tomorrow and see what happens. We were eating bananas at the same time as supping DD with calcium, so I wasn't sure exactly which one was making her crazy. But if the bananas don't make her crazy (or <i>as</i> crazy I guess), then that would be a big clue that she's not managing calcium properly, no?<br><br>
Then I just need to find a safe K2....</div>
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Glad you're reading there, I think it might be relevant for you. The definite sense I got is that dietary oxalates is not the main cause, so you don't need to worry about that much - you need to get the calcium under control. I think maybe DS actually doesn't make oxalates to control the calcium, he just goes nuts instead, sigh... but calcium is the root of the problem.<br><br>
I think you already have pretty good evidence that the calcium was making her nuts - didn't the night hitting stuff go away when you stopped supping calcium?<br><br>
And yeah, try the bananas again - we eat lots of them!<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166499"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">She's saying they're produced by the liver, or by infectious fungi in the digestive track.<br><br>
It's in this paper- <a href="http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IP2WS37tpAxdaDe78K1juxc9__3U9l94Tqg7KB6X6MnqMvXwBkIfB2nK4PIJK9qd2TJF3XP26Z02IBzTaqslwiPSWuNG/K2Paper.pdf" target="_blank">http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IP2WS37...NG/K2Paper.pdf</a><br><br>
Also, that's oxalic acid is highly corrosive, pH in the range of 1.4-1.6. Is that why they talk about baking soda baths? Need to keep reading...</div>
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I think so. The deal is your blood needs the alkalinity to pull acid from the cells. I tested DS' pee pH, and it was normal, which kind of confirms my sense that he has calcium dysregulation, but not oxalic acid issues. Most kids on the list have pee pH higher than 7.0, which is not good (indicates their body can't get rid of acid in the cells). So the first several steps of the protocol, including the baking soda baths, are to help with that issue. Then you add mag, D, K2, A, etc, I think to attack the calcium more directly. We were already doing all of that except for the K2, so I just added that, but I think the approach has merit for kids that seem to react badly to calcium.
 

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I was thinking about you guys after I read this stuff nessa. From what I'm reading about the calcium disregulation, it sounds like if you have it a LOD will make symptoms a LOT worse. So if you guys are seeing positive results from doing the LOD then I would assume you don't have the calcium issues (which would, according to this stuff, indicate a K deficiency.)<br><br>
BUT- I do think this stuff makes sense about high oxalate levels not being caused by diet. I'm sure a high oxalate diet doesn't help, but it makes sense to me that that large of an imbalance (at least in our case- I don't remember if you said what your girls oxalic acid numbers were) wouldn't come from a dietary source alone.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamafish9</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166545"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Glad you're reading there, I think it might be relevant for you. The definite sense I got is that dietary oxalates is not the main cause, so you don't need to worry about that much - you need to get the calcium under control. I think maybe DS actually doesn't make oxalates to control the calcium, he just goes nuts instead, sigh... but calcium is the root of the problem.<br><br>
I think you already have pretty good evidence that the calcium was making her nuts - didn't the night hitting stuff go away when you stopped supping calcium?<br><br>
And yeah, try the bananas again - we eat lots of them!<br><br><br><br>
I think so. The deal is your blood needs the alkalinity to pull acid from the cells. I tested DS' pee pH, and it was normal, which kind of confirms my sense that he has calcium dysregulation, but not oxalic acid issues. Most kids on the list have pee pH higher than 7.0, which is not good (indicates their body can't get rid of acid in the cells). So the first several steps of the protocol, including the baking soda baths, are to help with that issue. Then you add mag, D, K2, A, etc, I think to attack the calcium more directly. We were already doing all of that except for the K2, so I just added that, but I think the approach has merit for kids that seem to react badly to calcium.</div>
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No, the hitting didn't stop... but it's not quite as bad. Her crazies during that time were mostly getting really ramped up in the evening and not being able to settle down.<br><br>
Oh yeah- that reminds me I want to get out my pH strips and check her urine in the morning. Will be interesting to see if she's off there and if we can make any changes to it.<br><br>
Is there somewhere that talks more in detail about each step of the protocol, like the baking soda baths? I saw the main protocol document which lists each thing, but I'm curious if there's more info on each step anywhere that I haven't seen.
 

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I *think* the deal on lowering oxalates in the diet is to create a gradient so that endogenous oxalates can be dumped into the gut for excretion. Not that they're necessarily the source of the issue.<br><br>
Keep talking about the rest of the stuff... I fit in here somewhere, I just don't know where yet <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166499"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">She's saying they're produced by the liver, or by infectious fungi in the digestive track. It's in this paper- <a href="http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IP2WS37tpAxdaDe78K1juxc9__3U9l94Tqg7KB6X6MnqMvXwBkIfB2nK4PIJK9qd2TJF3XP26Z02IBzTaqslwiPSWuNG/K2Paper.pdf" target="_blank">http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IP2WS37...NG/K2Paper.pdf</a></div>
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unless our stool test was wrong, she doesn't have any infectious fungi in her digestive tract. i'll check out that paper, thanks. I want to know what the raw materials are and how the liver converts them in oxalates... ETA: That link didn't work...<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamafish9</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166545"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">tested DS' pee pH, and it was normal, which kind of confirms my sense that he has calcium dysregulation, but not oxalic acid issues. Most kids on the list have pee pH higher than 7.0, which is not good (indicates their body can't get rid of acid in the cells).</div>
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I need to read more about this. Also we had pH strips around the house from the BED. I may have given them to my Dad (he's just hitting the two year mark of treatment for Stage IV Colon Cancer w/lots of met to liver). That would be an interesting data point.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166552"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I was thinking about you guys after I read this stuff nessa. From what I'm reading about the calcium disregulation, it sounds like if you have it a LOD will make symptoms a LOT worse. So if you guys are seeing positive results from doing the LOD then I would assume you don't have the calcium issues (which would, according to this stuff, indicate a K deficiency.)</div>
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You're saying, if you have Ca disregulation and then you go on a LOD you will get much worse? We have definitely seem a major improvement. We are getting all of the dumping signs as well - like visible (oxalate) crystals in poop, etc.<br><br>
Are you saying having issues while LOD would indicated Ca issues which would indicate Vit K deficiency?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">BUT- I do think this stuff makes sense about high oxalate levels not being caused by diet. I'm sure a high oxalate diet doesn't help, but it makes sense to me that that large of an imbalance (at least in our case- I don't remember if you said what your girls oxalic acid numbers were) wouldn't come from a dietary source alone.</div>
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I don't necessarily think the high oxalate levels are *caused* by diet. I'm not actually sure what high levels in the stool would mean. I don't have those numbers for us. But I don't see how eating a diet high in oxalates would not be a concern for people with high oxalates? If you already have too much, why would you purposely consume lots more?<br><br>
As I understand it, most people can eat oxalates with little to no issue, unless it is in crazy high amounts. A mostly intact gut with hungry little intestinal bacteria will break them down and excrete them w/little issue. But, if you have a fragile/leaky gut and your little hungry bacteria are in diminished numbers or non-existant, so you're not breaking them down and excreting them properly, then they are going to build up in your tissues.<br><br>
ETA: so there is a connection between not enough calcium and leaky gut. and between leaky gut and oxalates. See this article: <a href="http://lowoxalate.info/papers/mechanisms.html" target="_blank">http://lowoxalate.info/papers/mechanisms.html</a><br><br>
Which leads me to:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>whoMe</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166574"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I *think* the deal on lowering oxalates in the diet is to create a gradient so that endogenous oxalates can be dumped into the gut for excretion. Not that they're necessarily the source of the issue.</div>
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Yes. This is my understanding as well.<br><br>
I guess, my issue is, I'm just not seeing why you couldn't address the Vit K issue while also being on a LOD?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>changingseasons</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166561"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Is there somewhere that talks more in detail about each step of the protocol, like the baking soda baths? I saw the main protocol document which lists each thing, but I'm curious if there's more info on each step anywhere that I haven't seen.</div>
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Not that I've found, which is frustrating. I think Catherine used to spend lots of time on the forum answering questions, but she's in school or something now, and AWOL. You can get bits and pieces reading the forum, but it's definitely not the easiest thing to figure out.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>menomena</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166967"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">You're saying, if you have Ca disregulation and then you go on a LOD you will get much worse? We have definitely seem a major improvement. We are getting all of the dumping signs as well - like visible (oxalate) crystals in poop, etc.<br><br>
...<br><br>
I guess, my issue is, I'm just not seeing why you couldn't address the Vit K issue while also being on a LOD?</div>
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I think the LOD would only make things worse IF you are doing the calcium supps the LOD calls for. That's the part of the LOD diet that the vitK people object to. And yeah, if you supp lots of calcium and have a calcium regulation issue, things will get worse.<br><br>
In terms of just eating low oxalates, I don't think the vitK people think that's bad, just that it misses the issue (so temporary bandaid, vs. fixing the problem).
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>menomena</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/15166967"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">unless our stool test was wrong, she doesn't have any infectious fungi in her digestive tract. i'll check out that paper, thanks. I want to know what the raw materials are and how the liver converts them in oxalates... ETA: That link didn't work...<br><br><span style="color:#800080;">You probably have to be signed up for the Yahoo group to access it. DD didn't have any fungi in her stool test either.</span><br><br>
I need to read more about this. Also we had pH strips around the house from the BED. I may have given them to my Dad (he's just hitting the two year mark of treatment for Stage IV Colon Cancer w/lots of met to liver). That would be an interesting data point.<br><br><span style="color:#800080;">I tested our urine this morning, and both DD and I were about 6.4, which seems perfectly normal. I was kind of expecting hers to be more acidic if she's got that much oxalic acid in her urine (which she does, according to the GP urine test.) <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"></span><br><br>
You're saying, if you have Ca disregulation and then you go on a LOD you will get much worse? We have definitely seem a major improvement. We are getting all of the dumping signs as well - like visible (oxalate) crystals in poop, etc.<br><br><span style="color:#800080;">Yes- that's how I'm reading it. Because you won't have as many oxalates floating around to bind with the rogue calcium. Although I guess your body could always produce the excess that your diet lacks... So maybe just an initial flare in behavioral symptoms until your body kicks in and starts producing more?<br><br>
I'm a little confused about the whole "dumping" thing. Why, if you're consuming less oxalates, would your body be getting rid of *more*? I would think the less you consume, the less that will be excreted.<br></span><br>
Are you saying having issues while LOD would indicated Ca issues which would indicate Vit K deficiency?<br><br><span style="color:#800080;">I <i>think</i> so?? Not completely positive about that one. I'm sure it could signal other things as well, but that's the thing she focuses on in this paper.</span><br><br>
I don't necessarily think the high oxalate levels are *caused* by diet. I'm not actually sure what high levels in the stool would mean. I don't have those numbers for us. But I don't see how eating a diet high in oxalates would not be a concern for people with high oxalates? If you already have too much, why would you purposely consume lots more?<br><br><span style="color:#800080;">But the point she's making is that your body is producing all these oxalates because it NEEDS them to bind the calcium, so that the calcium doesn't do damage. So I guess LOD isn't necessarily bad, except that if you have the calcium regulation issues you're basically making them worse by going LOD.</span><br><br>
As I understand it, most people can eat oxalates with little to no issue, unless it is in crazy high amounts. A mostly intact gut with hungry little intestinal bacteria will break them down and excrete them w/little issue. But, if you have a fragile/leaky gut and your little hungry bacteria are in diminished numbers or non-existant, so you're not breaking them down and excreting them properly, then they are going to build up in your tissues.<br><br>
ETA: so there is a connection between not enough calcium and leaky gut. and between leaky gut and oxalates. See this article: <a href="http://lowoxalate.info/papers/mechanisms.html" target="_blank">http://lowoxalate.info/papers/mechanisms.html</a><br><br><span style="color:#800080;">Yeah- she talks about that too. Basically that you *can't* close a leaky gut without fixing the calcium issues.</span><br><br>
Which leads me to:<br><br><br><br>
Yes. This is my understanding as well.<br><br>
I guess, my issue is, I'm just not seeing why you couldn't address the Vit K issue while also being on a LOD?</div>
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<span style="color:#800080;">The other part of it is that when you start dumping oxalates, if you haven't already addressed deficient gut bacteria (lacto strains specifically I think, and one in particular that I don't remember the name of), then the oxalates won't get broken down and will just continue floating around your body wreaking havoc. So the whole K protocol thing is supposed to address a bunch of things at the same time. I think. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"></span>
 

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oxalobacter formigenes - that's the name. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
So the other part of the oxalate issue is that, from what I've read, you should have no problems getting rid of excess oxalates if your gut bacteria is good, as the bacteria will break the oxalates down.<br><br>
So I guess that's another angle you could go rather than the LOD too (not that you're looking for another angle...) The K group lady recommends VSL#3.
 
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