[RowansDad]

Defense Science Board report here (caution s-l-o-w loading):
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/2...munication.pdf

Who are these guys:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht..._Science_Board

NYTimes piece (via Houston Chronicle) here:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printsto...nation/2920229

Other coverage:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1129/dailyUpdate.html

'Highlights' from the report:

"American direct intervention in the Muslim world has paradoxically elevated the stature of, and support for, radical Islamists, while diminishing support for the United States to single digits in some Arab societies."

"Muslims do not 'hate our freedoms', but rather, they hate our policies. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the long-standing, even increasing support, for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf states.

"Thus when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy. Moreover, saying that 'freedom is the future of the Middle East' is seen as patronizing … in the eyes of Muslims, the American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. US actions appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim self-determination."

"We face a war on terrorism, intensified conflict with Islam, and insurgency in Iraq. Worldwide anger and discontent are directed at America's tarnished credibility and ways the US pursues its goals. There is a consensus that America's power to persuade is in a state of crisis."

Now, doesn't that make you fell like Dubya Inc. has a handle on all this!

 

[RachelGS]

Yep. Saying they hate our freedoms is just simple-minded.

 

[Marg of Arabia]

This is all part of the strange practice of strengthening the enemy. You know Bush and Co. must be doing this on purpose. I still haven't decided on the motive...anyone have some guesses?

 

[member]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marg of Arabia This is all part of the strange practice of strengthening the enemy. You know Bush and Co. must be doing this on purpose. I still haven't decided on the motive...anyone have some guesses?

To provoke an attack, have war, invite the neighbors and take control of... well, everything but more importantly the oil? Simplistic, but that's what I got at 8:30 AM on a Tuesday.

RD, thank you so much for all of your posts. You make it easier for this weary student to search out information. I appreciate that.

 

[Marg of Arabia]

Quote:

To provoke an attack, have war, invite the neighbors and take control of... well, everything but more importantly the oil? Simplistic, but that's what I got at 8:30 AM on a Tuesday.

 

[RowansDad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selu Gigage RD, thank you so much for all of your posts. You make it easier for this weary student to search out information. I appreciate that.

You are very welcome.

More from the report:

"Finally, Muslims see Americans as strangely narcissistic - namely, that the war is all about us. As the Muslims see it, everything about the war is - for Americans - really no more than an extension of American domestic politics and its great game. This perception is of course necessarily heightened by election-year atmospherics, but nonetheless sustains their impression that when Americans talk to Muslims they are really just talking to themselves."

Bingo.

 

[ChasingPeace]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marg of Arabia This is all part of the strange practice of strengthening the enemy. You know Bush and Co. must be doing this on purpose. I still haven't decided on the motive...anyone have some guesses?

Either 1) to attempt to bring about Armaggedon, 2) or to keep the US in a state of perpetual war as in Orwell's "1984" (which I'm convinced is Karl Rove's bible) so that we won't notice or object to what's really going on.

What disturbs me most about this report is that many of us have been saying these things for years. Why don't people get it?

 

[Galatea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasingPeace Either 1) to attempt to bring about Armaggedon, 2) or to keep the US in a state of perpetual war as in Orwell's "1984" (which I'm convinced is Karl Rove's bible) so that we won't notice or object to what's really going on. What disturbs me most about this report is that many of us have been saying these things for years. Why don't people get it?

I agree with you on #2.

Also, why they don't get it is the $64,000 question. :LOL

 

[Jenmom]

I don't think the Islamic world as whole hates our freedoms. However, there are individuals and groups who do not want freedom for all. It's a fact.

http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyt...ry.asp?id=7075

they bomb their own children because they hate US policy? Is that your claim? The story linked above is just the tip of the iceburg compared to the first-hand accounts I've heard.

 

[ChasingPeace]

Jenmom, I think that awful reactionary incidents like the one you cite are different from attacks against the US. I think the rise in pseudo-Islamic militant fundamentalism in general is a reaction to the perception of colonialism, cultural or physical, in the Middle East. However, once people buy into the militant fundamentalist ideology, it leads them to take actions consistent with that ideology (like oppress women and engage in violence against those who are seen as a threat to their vision of a society pleasing to God). It's an extremely dangerous mindset, b/c once religious fervor is in the mix...well, we've seen what happens. I (and many others) believe the most effective way to deal with it is to address the conditions which lead Muslim men and women to be sucked into that ideology and those conditions are primarily US policies.

 

[Jenmom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChasingPeace <snip>I (and many others) believe the most effective way to deal with it is to address the conditions which lead Muslim men and women to be sucked into that ideology and those conditions are primarily US policies.

So you are saying that the presence of US soldiers *caused* the oppression of women in Muslim culture? There really aren't any US soldiers, to speak of in Egypt. However, when I visited there I was told by Egyptians how Christian women are tattooed at birth so that they aren't forced to wear a veil, so that they aren't attacked on the street for not wearing one. The most popular singer in Egypt has been barred from entering due to her "racy" videos http://www.albawaba.com/en/entertainment/178211 US policies may make a convienent excuse but buying into it smacks of enabling, of saying "well, I understand, my country is BAD, I don't blame you for reacting by bombing a school full of girls." I can't agree with that mindset, there are too many past and present examples that have little to do with the US and it's government policies.

 

[RowansDad]

Jenmom, have you read the report?

 

[ChasingPeace]

Jenmom, the roots of this go much farther back than the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pseudo-Islamic militant fundamentalism as a movement has been on the rise since at least the 70s. I think you may be reading my point too narrowly. I'm not saying you can look at each and every individual incident of religiously-based violence in the Middle East and draw a direct line to US policies. I'm saying that what motivates "recruits" to pseudo-Islamic militant fundamentalism as a movement is outrage over US policies.

Here's an interesting article by Karen Armstrong about fundamentalism in the 3 Abrahamic faiths:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/88/story_8849_1.html

As far as the oppression of women goes in Middle Eastern cultures, unfortunately it's nothing new (actually it's nothing new in any culture). But I
suspect it's become worse with the rise in fundamentalism. Similarly, in the US, with the rise in Christian fundamentalism, many would argue (myself included) women's rights have been increasingly threatened.

 

[Jenmom]

I whole-heartedly agree with the report wrt strategic communications (which is what the report is really about). I think this is one area in which the US is making major mistakes. However, one thing which the report almost completely ignores is the anger in many other countries (and not just Muslim countries) over the cultural influx. They speak of Western influence in the USSR and contrast it with our influence in Muslim nations. However, in Muslim nations the anger at the cultural influx is as great as the anger at US military and diplomatic policy. You can make the general claim that "they do not hate our freedoms" but many individuals and groups *do*. They do *not* want a free-flow of ideas. They do not want Western culture influencing their young. They do *not* want their women educated. This is partially a reaction to US policy but it is also partially in reaction to the influx of Western culture.