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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My husband and I have had major disagreements about this. I feel that children should be picked up under their arms, and he thinks there is nothing wrong with pulling her up by one arm around the wrist (but gently). I remember (somewhere) that putting stress on one arm (on a toddler or small child) can cause a dislocation in the shoulder or elbow? Has anyone heard of this and if so where?? In the past, I asked and asked him not to do that but he doesnt listen to me, and yesterday someone actually came to me privately and asked if he was abusive. Verbally with me maybe but I would never tolerate him doing ANYTHING to my children. I do know he does some irresponsible things with them eg. letting 3 1/2 year old look at toys at store unsupervised (1 time before i laced into him), arguing with car seats (according to him I am too paranoid) , trying to let them go outside in backyard (no fence) unsupervised (I follow them out and keep an eye on them)....all of which i have put my foot down and caused major arguments about my "over protectiveness". Does anyone have any info how to properly pick up a child and why so I can show him?? Mods, I apologize if this is in the wrong section but I thought since this is a medical/injury issue that this was the proper place for it.
 

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I think what you are thinking of is Nursemaid's elbow, it is what happens when a child's elbow is subluxated from being pulled or lifted by the arm. My son has had this happen a few times and it was not pleasant. I ended putting a warning on his shirts for almost 6 months to keep people from lifting him by his arm. It won't happen to every child, my other 4 have never had any issues, but when it does happen it can be a very traumatic event for both the child and the adult in the situation. We ended up bringing him to the ER the first two times that it happened and it was not a success. Seamus was very emotionally scarred by the ER trip and I was not happy with the treatment he received.<br>
Once a child's arm has been subluxated it is more likely to happen again, at least until the child is around 7 or 8 years old, when the ridge at the edge of the bone where the tendon lies grows and then prevents the tendon from slipping over the edge of the bone.
 

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My DD has a broken elbow right now (from a fall). When we saw her dr before the xray, he asked me if anyone pulled on her arm as she fell and explained to me that an adult pulling on a child's arm can cause problems, lead to nurses elbow. I would continue lifting the way you do by the underarm and avoid pulling on the arm.
 

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A few years back my BL dislocated his son's elbow by playing with him where he picks him up by the hands.<br>
At the ER both parents and child were all questioned separately by CFS, the police were brought in...not a good situation for all, most notably the boy with the damaged elbow.<br><br>
We head that warning and pick up under arms, also no pulling by the hand or arm.
 

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One of my boys is prone to this. The first time it happened was when he was about 6 months old and he rolled over, but his arm got stuck (I watched it happen...I had no idea he could hurt himself by rolling!) and his elbow poped out. We took him to the ER because we had no idea what happened. It has since happened several times (mostly when playing with his bro's...what are you going to do), but I know how to pop it back in now, for instant relief and no Dr.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MaxMommy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11604765"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">A few years back my BL dislocated his son's elbow by playing with him where he picks him up by the hands.<br>
At the ER both parents and child were all questioned separately by CFS, the police were brought in...not a good situation for all, most notably the boy with the damaged elbow.<br><br>
We head that warning and pick up under arms, also no pulling by the hand or arm.</div>
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Yes that is what I am concerned about. I always pick up my daughters under the arms but to convince my husband of that???? I think I learned that at the new moms group when I had my first daughter and it just seems instinctive to me kwim (the proper way to pick them up i mean). I know he is not rough but I cant seem to get him to understand it is risky and not the correct way to pick up a child. I mean someone actually came to me privately and asked me if he was abusive because of the way he picked her up. He was moving her from his left side to his right side but still.......I cant get him to understand it can cause damage. He seems to think if it has been ok so far that there is nothing wrong. But then we are talking about a guy who i almost divorced over the car seat issue.....i refused to put the kids in the car unless they were restrained properly and he thought i was crazy. He is arabic and apparently they dont use car seats in his country, and they seem to do things differently there with regards to children. I cant get him to realize that maybe it is ok over there but here it is not ok and we are very safety conscious. I am so frustrated...you have no idea how embarrassed i was when i was asked if he was abusive....i ended up saying no not abusive but irresponsible and stubborn yes<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="banghead"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hammer.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hammer">. I am thinking of asking the doctor privately (without hubby knowing) to talk to him about proper lifting.
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I am thinking of asking the doctor privately (without hubby knowing) to talk to him about proper lifting.</td>
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Why do you have to ask the doctor without your husband's knowledge? Are you afraid of him?<br><br>
You don't need to ask a doctor if it is the wrong way to lift a child. You just got several answers, with examples, that it IS wrong.<br><br>
Sorry, lady, but if I ever saw my husband picking up our child in what IS an unsafe manner, you can bet your bottom dollar he would <span style="text-decoration:underline;">never</span> do <span style="text-decoration:underline;">that</span> again, not after I laid into him about it (and my lawyer did the same).<br><br>
I don't care if he's Arabic, American or Martian. It is NOT okay to lift a child by the wrist, the country of origin of the parent doesn't matter. Putting a child's body at risk doesn't recognize borders or nationality.<br><br>
TELL him to STOP this NOW.<br><br>
As far as the carseats, tell him it is the LAW. It is not being paranoid or over-protective.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">In the past, I asked and asked him not to do that but he doesnt listen to me, and yesterday someone actually came to me privately and asked if he was abusive. Verbally with me maybe but I would never tolerate him doing ANYTHING to my children.</td>
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Sounds like you ARE in an abusive situation (abuse doesn't have to be physical). He is putting your children at risk for harm with his actions. If he is continuing to handle the child in such a manner AFTER you told him not to, you <span style="text-decoration:underline;">are</span> tolerating this type of physical roughness.
 

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VeronicaLynn- my husband is also Arabic and we have a lot of differences in childrearing.<br>
As far as the arm pulling, you just have to be firm in your explaining to him why it is so crucial for him to follow it and remind them that mothers know best (that will strike a familiar chord as it is a theme in Arab countries).<br>
And, you have to understand that in most Arab countries there are more children in the family than there are spots for them to sit in the car, so of course car seats cannot fit too. It's a slow process to evolve to car seats (I ran into the problem when I took my dd across seas) but it can be done. Hang in there and stick to your convictions!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br>
HUGS!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>grahamsmom98</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11609057"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Why do you have to ask the doctor without your husband's knowledge? Are you afraid of him?<br><br>
Ugh, no but if he thinks the advice is coming from me he will be stubborn and refuse to listen....which is a common problem with arabic men.probably wont listen to the doctor.<br><br><br><br>
"Sorry, lady, but if I ever saw my husband picking up our child in what IS an unsafe manner, you can bet your bottom dollar he would never do that again, not after I laid into him about it (and my lawyer did the same)."<br><br><br>
Sorry, lady, I meant picking up in a STUPID MANNER not abusive. Please read the prior post very carefully next time.<br><br>
I don't care if he's Arabic, American or Martian. It is NOT okay to lift a child by the wrist, the country of origin of the parent doesn't matter. Putting a child's body at risk doesn't recognize borders or nationality.<br><br>
As others who are married to arabic persons ( I cannot speak for other nationalities) have mentioned: what is acceptable and normal in one country is not in another. It doesnt mean the person is abusive....just IGNORANT. There are many countries who do not use car seats.......it doesnt mean they are abusive, it means they dont have the regulations for it for whatever reason so to them it is weird......until they are shown how much safer it it is.<br><br>
TELL him to STOP this NOW.<br><br><br>
That is the point my dear.......sometimes arabic men DONT listen to their wives.....a well known irritating thing but they WILL listen to everyone else under the sun.<br><br>
As far as the carseats, tell him it is the LAW. It is not being paranoid or over-protective.<br><br>
The car seat is not the issue......we dont go in the car unless the car seat is being used.<br><br><br><br>
Sounds like you ARE in an abusive situation (abuse doesn't have to be physical). He is putting your children at risk for harm with his actions. If he is continuing to handle the child in such a manner AFTER you told him not to, you are tolerating this type of physical roughness.</div>
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With yelling at me in private yes.....physical no. The kids no.....what they have been is subjected to fatherly stupidness, misinformation, and stubborness. You want some examples????? Interestingly, a couple of friends of mine who are married to Canadians encountered the same issues.....<br><br>
1. Wanting them to play in park unsupervised......no not happening.<br><br>
2. Let older one look at toys in store while he shops.....nope not happening either.<br><br>
3. Losing one at the mall because he is not paying attention......easy to solve....they dont go to the mall without mama.<br><br>
I will repeat...all of which I noticed has happened with my friends husbands and seems to be more a case of irresponsibility and stupidity than anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShwarmaQueen</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11609184"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">VeronicaLynn- my husband is also Arabic and we have a lot of differences in childrearing.<br>
As far as the arm pulling, you just have to be firm in your explaining to him why it is so crucial for him to follow it and remind them that mothers know best (that will strike a familiar chord as it is a theme in Arab countries).<br>
And, you have to understand that in most Arab countries there are more children in the family than there are spots for them to sit in the car, so of course car seats cannot fit too. It's a slow process to evolve to car seats (I ran into the problem when I took my dd across seas) but it can be done. Hang in there and stick to your convictions!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br>
HUGS!</div>
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SwarmaQueen, I dont know if it is an iraqi thing but these men dont seem to listen to their wives but will listen to others. The only way I have gotten through to him is by doing physical things like refusing to allow the children to get into the car without a car seat so now that isnt an issue but boy was he ticked. Or running outside without hijab if he left them at the park alone. I have tried the mother knows best talk but we are talking about a guy who (i recently found out) refused to let me pick up my first child for a looong time....I had a c/s and I thought for years he had been so caring and I find out no, he thought he knew best<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="banghead"> (and he tried to teach me how to breastfeed....his technique was horrible). I know they do things differently there and I asked him about it.....it is or was normal to let small children wander the neighborhood because everyone knew everyone which is where he gets this let the kids out unsupervised comes from. I am guessing the holding by one arm thing was done in his family????? He is not doing it in anger at all....just seems to think he has to move her from his left side to his right side by lifting that way and I havent been able to get through to him. And he refused to read other posts here. He wont read any articles so I thought maybe he might listen to a doctor talk about the risks and he would be more open to it if he doesnt think he is being attacked. It is like playing chess with these men....they are so different than north american I find. I know he loves them and he was devastated what someone thought but he still is thinking he knows best. Btw, I like your screen name...I have been craving chicken swarmas like crazy with this pregnancy<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Eat">:
 

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Arggh! DHs can be soo frustrating! You are right about them letting kids wander freely, but my DH's security came crashing down when I pointed out all the missing children posters in Walmart, news headlines, and Amber Alert Freeway signs. I've tried to make it very real to him the horrible torture that happens to those kidnapped children and basically painted the fear of reality for him very vividly. Just keep trying and don't take ur eyes off of those babies! Try the doctor route for the arm thing, although maybe u should make sure he's going to say what you want him too! By the way, my grandmother's shoulder was pulled out of socket by someone "spinning" her, but I might add that she was over 30 lbs by 1 year, so I'm sure that had something to do w/ it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShwarmaQueen</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11616379"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Arggh! DHs can be soo frustrating! You are right about them letting kids wander freely, but my DH's security came crashing down when I pointed out all the missing children posters in Walmart, news headlines, and Amber Alert Freeway signs. I've tried to make it very real to him the horrible torture that happens to those kidnapped children and basically painted the fear of reality for him very vividly. Just keep trying and don't take ur eyes off of those babies! Try the doctor route for the arm thing, although maybe u should make sure he's going to say what you want him too! By the way, my grandmother's shoulder was pulled out of socket by someone "spinning" her, but I might add that she was over 30 lbs by 1 year, so I'm sure that had something to do w/ it.</div>
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When I tried to show him the posters in Walmart, stories etc...he yells at me and doesnt want to hear it<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hammer.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hammer"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="banghead"> . I did remind him of a little girl (10 months old) who was raped somewhere in Africa but then he said that was there not here....Yes, I would speak to the doctor first and tell him the problem and ensure he does say what I expect him to say. Thankfully, he never spins the kids like that. It is just if she is on his left side he will lift her by the one arm and move her slowly to the other side. My issue is that no matter how gentle he is being, it can still cause stress to the joints kwim....?...and apparently doesnt look too good to other people observing it. And with kids being kidnapped....his usual answer is what are the chances? One in a million???? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="banghead"> I used to believe him that I was overprotective but I have talked to many mothers and when I asked them, they said they would do the same safety choices. I even have asked some of his friends wives who are also Iraqi and they have the same concerns that I do....He tried to make it sound as if only Canadians are paranoid.
 

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It might help to have his mom, aunt, or other older female whom he respects give him a stern warning too. Like maybe if you were all hanging out together you might slip it into a conversation, like "Oh can you believe what he does...explain...tell him it's not good for them..." But just make it light and not harsh or embarassing. I usally use the "Ask your mom" approach bc she always sides w/ me!
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>MaxMommy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11604765"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">A few years back my BL dislocated his son's elbow by playing with him where he picks him up by the hands.<br>
At the ER both parents and child were all questioned separately by CFS, the police were brought in...not a good situation for all, most notably the boy with the damaged elbow.<br><br>
We head that warning and pick up under arms, also no pulling by the hand or arm.</div>
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Eek, I didn't know this was so serious. DS loves when he holds our hands and swings...like when we're walking, he takes a couple steps then jumps and swings, hanging onto our hands. You all probably know what I'm talking about...I've seen lots of little kids do this. I will make sure to tell DH right when he gets home from work not to let him do this anymore, I didn't think there was any harm in it! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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this is a great thread. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/joy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="joy">:<br><br>
i work in childcare and there was a little boy (he is 2.5 yo) who threw a tantrum when i told him he needed to eat his snack in the kitchen and that i was going to put his little bag of pretzels on the table in there for him to eat when he wanted to. so i took them (nicely...) and he then proceeded to start telling me NO really nastily and threw a hard toy car which hit my dd in the arm hard. i had been holding my son on my hip and he is an infant so i couldn't just set him down (not sitting up quite yet by himself) and so i leaned down where this boy was sitting and gently...let me tell you GENTLY...took him by his forearm and was attempting to lead him away from the 2 dc he was sitting by. they were in an enclosed area surrounded by mats that were the walls to a "house" they constructed. he was swingin' and ready to beat the living crap out of anyone who came in his way of his eruption...so as i'm doing this, the mom happened to peek in the window that is in the door (i work in a gym) and sees this going on. she freaks out and comes in, asking what was going on...talks to her son not me...about what was happening. lord. i felt about yo high and felt awful and guilty when i wasn't even guilty of hurting or harming him. i didn't want him hurting any other child and was trying to get him to chill out in another area away from them. i wasn't dragging him. i wasn't even holding him hard. i was more like guiding him in one direction w/out pulling on his arm. to his mother it looked awful. anyway...needless to say...i will NEVER hold a child by their arm again. i am only picking them up under their arms and hope to god they don't swing at me or hurt me or another child during their fit.<br><br>
a few days later........this same boy was playing w/ that same car and he'd set it down. my dd picked it up eventually and when he saw she was playing w/ it he freaked out...started throwing another fit. she gave the car back (as i wanted to avoid any fits w/ this guy) and said she was sorry for having the car (even though she wasn't to blame at all for anything except what he thinks is his his his) and she went to hug him and he screams at her YOU ARE NOT MY BROTHER!!! GET AWAY FROM ME!!! it was awful. his mom says he is just a strong willed child but omg...i feel like i walk on eggshells w/ him now...afraid to upset him. anyway........................yeah.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ShwarmaQueen</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11625988"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">It might help to have his mom, aunt, or other older female whom he respects give him a stern warning too. Like maybe if you were all hanging out together you might slip it into a conversation, like "Oh can you believe what he does...explain...tell him it's not good for them..." But just make it light and not harsh or embarassing. I usally use the "Ask your mom" approach bc she always sides w/ me!</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"> Boy are you on the same wavelength.....I tried this yesterday. He doesnt have any family here and I dont speak arabic so I cant talk to them on the phone about this but I did try to ask his friends and his friends wives about this and they thought I was nuts.....so that didnt work. There is one friend of his who is Iraqi and also a doctor but I am not sure if they are still in contact but I will look into that. It is so frustrating with this. He will listen to everyone else even his friends wives but listen to his own wife? No way. The funny thing is the wives all complain about the same thing too about husbands not listening to them but listening to everyone else. If this wasnt so serious this would be funny.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>doublyblessed</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11631682"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">this is a great thread. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/joy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="joy">:<br><br>
i work in childcare and there was a little boy (he is 2.5 yo) who threw a tantrum when i told him he needed to eat his snack in the kitchen and that i was going to put his little bag of pretzels on the table in there for him to eat when he wanted to. so i took them (nicely...) and he then proceeded to start telling me NO really nastily and threw a hard toy car which hit my dd in the arm hard. i had been holding my son on my hip and he is an infant so i couldn't just set him down (not sitting up quite yet by himself) and so i leaned down where this boy was sitting and gently...let me tell you GENTLY...took him by his forearm and was attempting to lead him away from the 2 dc he was sitting by. they were in an enclosed area surrounded by mats that were the walls to a "house" they constructed. he was swingin' and ready to beat the living crap out of anyone who came in his way of his eruption...so as i'm doing this, the mom happened to peek in the window that is in the door (i work in a gym) and sees this going on. she freaks out and comes in, asking what was going on...talks to her son not me...about what was happening. lord. i felt about yo high and felt awful and guilty when i wasn't even guilty of hurting or harming him. i didn't want him hurting any other child and was trying to get him to chill out in another area away from them. i wasn't dragging him. i wasn't even holding him hard. i was more like guiding him in one direction w/out pulling on his arm. to his mother it looked awful. anyway...needless to say...i will NEVER hold a child by their arm again. i am only picking them up under their arms and hope to god they don't swing at me or hurt me or another child during their fit.<br><br>
a few days later........this same boy was playing w/ that same car and he'd set it down. my dd picked it up eventually and when he saw she was playing w/ it he freaked out...started throwing another fit. she gave the car back (as i wanted to avoid any fits w/ this guy) and said she was sorry for having the car (even though she wasn't to blame at all for anything except what he thinks is his his his) and she went to hug him and he screams at her YOU ARE NOT MY BROTHER!!! GET AWAY FROM ME!!! it was awful. his mom says he is just a strong willed child but omg...i feel like i walk on eggshells w/ him now...afraid to upset him. anyway........................yeah.</div>
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I guess that is the thing....how it looks to others. My husband was very gentle too but to others it must not look too good. It never looks too good to me either. In my husbands case, the person asking also noticed he didnt run to my dd2 right away when she fell and they thought because of that....you guessed it....abuse! I dont automatically run to her right away either. It depends on how hard she fell, if she is hurt, how she is crying etc...If I see she is truly distressed and not just complaining I run right to her....well waddle......I am almost 8 months pregnant now but often after we say "oh you fell? Are you ok?", she will stop and get up and be ok. But others dont know her temperment like we do. I used to be the type who walked just behind my children when they were learning to walk, hands outstretched waiting for them to fall. I had a child development worker who came to visit once a week laughing at me because she said dd is going to lose her balance and as long as she is not fallng from a high place, or there is anything that can hurt her when she loses her balance (we have carpet) to leave her alone and let her learn. She said you cant stop them from falling; that is how they will learn to balance etc. To be honest, I still have a hard time with that.<br>
That is a hard issue with the 2 1/2 year old. I know at that age they will strike out at others and if you are holding a baby.....yeah you want to get them out of striking distance. You never know what others may think....especially a protective mother lol.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>veronicalynne</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11632470"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"> Boy are you on the same wavelength.....I tried this yesterday. He doesnt have any family here and I dont speak arabic so I cant talk to them on the phone about this</div>
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I don't speak arabic either...but I have managed to make some older women allies (sp) whom he respects and who speak English. That is frustrating that the other wives didnt agree w/ you, it just further strengthens his side! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"> You have to find other Iraqi men married to Canadian/American wives to match you!
 
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