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<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm</a><br><br>
"Pope Benedict's plans to revive the Latin Mass, which includes prayers for the conversion of Jews, is causing concern among Catholic and Jewish groups about relations between their faiths.<br><br>
Religious commentators predict that Pope Benedict will issue authorisation for wider use of the Mass - known as the Tridentine Mass - soon.<br><br>
The Mass was celebrated for hundreds of years before being replaced by a liturgy celebrated in local languages, as part of reforms instigated after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s..."<br><br>
I would hope he would at least leave out the conversion of Jews prayers.... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> I will say as somebody who switched to a religion where a lot of the rituals are performed in a language that I do not understand very well... I think this is a bad move. Even if I did study Latin for a few years. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>umsami</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7966709"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm</a><br><br>
"Pope Benedict's plans to revive the Latin Mass, which includes prayers for the conversion of Jews, is causing concern among Catholic and Jewish groups about relations between their faiths.<br><br>
Religious commentators predict that Pope Benedict will issue authorisation for wider use of the Mass - known as the Tridentine Mass - soon.<br><br>
The Mass was celebrated for hundreds of years before being replaced by a liturgy celebrated in local languages, as part of reforms instigated after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s..."<br><br>
I would hope he would at least leave out the conversion of Jews prayers.... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> I will say as somebody who switched to a religion where a lot of the rituals are performed in a language that I do not understand very well... I think this is a bad move. Even if I did study Latin for a few years. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"></div>
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I have to admit that I don't understand why that prayer is controversial. Don't Catholics (and most Christians) believe that without faith in Jesus you will go to hell (or at least purgatory or something)? So isn't it brotherly and loving and all that crap to pray for the conversion of jews?<br><br>
I understand of course that it's the height of arrogance to do so, but that (to me) is just religion...
 

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I don't think that parish (bound) priests learn Latin any more as a rule. I think that Benedict is mostly aiming at people who are already using this Mass anyway. But the Tridentine Latin Mass isn't some kind of package in any case. The Pope can cut from it whatever he wants. The local priest can cut these sorts of prayers from it as well.<br><br>
On the other hand, we have in the US all of these "end of times" Protestant groups that support Israel because they think that support of Israel falls in line with their beliefs about the "second coming"; beliefs that contain within them a mass conversion of most Jews and the utter destruction of all the ones that don't convert. These groups seem to be met with open arms (the good kind of arms) by the Israeli government anyway.<br><br>
So all of this seems rather flexible to me in practice.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SirPentor</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7967664"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I have to admit that I don't understand why that prayer is controversial. Don't Catholics (and most Christians) believe that without faith in Jesus you will go to hell (or at least purgatory or something)? So isn't it brotherly and loving and all that crap to pray for the conversion of jews?</div>
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Yes, but I believe they've made it a bit more complicated than that. For instance, I think the official belief is that Ghandi wouldn't go to hell because he was Catholic and just didn't know.<br><br>
Hopefully someone who knows more will post about that.
 

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We have a pre vatican 2 latin mass Catholic Church by my home. Fro mwhat I have read, people travel from pretty far to attend and it is a tiny place. The priests there are not recognized by the vatican, etc. It is a major split, so this is interesting.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SirPentor</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7967664"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Don't Catholics (and most Christians) believe that without faith in Jesus you will go to hell (or at least purgatory or something)?</div>
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I found the info on this... if someone is "invincibly ignorant", they can be saved even though they are not Catholics.<br><br><a href="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp" target="_blank">http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">A person who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and his Church through no fault of his own (or, by extension, through his merely venial fault) can be saved-if he otherwise does what is required for salvation, according to the level of opportunity, enlightenment, and grace God gives him (CCC 847, 1260).</td>
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A man should know what is required for salvation even if he has no knowledge of the Catholic Church because :<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">no one is presumed to be ignorant of the principles of moral law since these are written on the heart of every man (CCC 1860).</td>
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Former Catholic here...<br><br>
Many of the answers to the "don't Catholics believe....?" questions on this thread have answers that contradict what I learned in Catholic Sunday school and from my parents.<br><br>
As for the OP maybe they are trying to lure Mel Gibson back.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Momtwice</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7968778"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">As for the OP maybe they are trying to lure Mel Gibson back.</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/biglaugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="laugh">:
 

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The official Novus Ordo Mass (post-SVC) is in Latin - why wouldn't *that* be the "Latin Mass" he's trying to revive? Tridentine doesn't make sense - that was put to bed decades ago.<br><br>
For what it's worth, I attended a Latin Novus Ordo Mass last Friday and it was gorgeous. The Latin portions were strictly prayers and some songs, most was in English (the readings from Scripture, the homily, the Eucharistic prayers, etc.) and the priest faced the congregation instead of the altar. The Pater Nostre, Agnus Dei, Gloria and the rest were so beautiful and had so much meaning to this Catholic. And the incense and formal acolyte service! It brought tears to my eyes. And there were *no* conversion prayers.<br><br>
From what I understand the official Catholic stance is that all moral paths lead to God, Catholicism is just the best path. Which is a stance most major religions/denoms take, (about their own, not Catholicism <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> )
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>suzywan</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7969364"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">From what I understand the official Catholic stance is that all moral paths lead to God, Catholicism is just the best path. Which is a stance most major religions/denoms take, (about their own, not Catholicism <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> )</div>
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Sure, not Catholocism, but belief in Christ, right (see Mom2Pheonix's post above about that). The prayer isn't that Lutherans will become Catholics. It's that Jews will. I would assume Muslims apply as well.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>suzywan</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7969364"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">The official Novus Ordo Mass (post-SVC) is in Latin - why wouldn't *that* be the "Latin Mass" he's trying to revive? Tridentine doesn't make sense - that was put to bed decades ago.</div>
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It makes tons of sense. His decision is not based on any particular merits of the Tridentine alone. He's just trying to bring the SSPX folks back into the fold, that's all. It's not as if Mass in the vernacular will be disappearing, but parishes will now be free to add an extra Tridentine to their schedule if they want to meet the needs of the people who would have otherwise gone to SSPX Masses.
 

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Seeing as I rarely bring the catechism to work I'll have to answer with what I have been personally taught in my 30 years of being Catholic.<br><br>
All good people eventually get to heaven. 99.99% of us go to purgatory first. Hell exists, but may or may not be empty. God loves the lambs and the goats. We are all God's children.<br><br>
I have never once been led in a conversion prayer except in grade school and it was referencing those poor Soviet athiests. We never prayed to convert Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddists, or Shintoists.<br><br>
Basically, God's will is a mystery - only He can call us to His Kingdom. Or Hers, if you prefer <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Well, I guess if it's to lure those folks back into the fold, as you say, it does make sense. But the tenets of V2 still stand, so old order beliefs about Jews and such are still verboten. I would think, anyway. I certainly hope so <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:
 

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To be perfectly honest, I would probably attend church more consistently if I had access to a Latin Mass every week. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Mom2Phoenix</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7968597"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I found the info on this... if someone is "invincibly ignorant", they can be saved even though they are not Catholics.</div>
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For some reason the phrase "invincibly ignorant" strikes me as both powerful and really, really funny. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/bag.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Bag">:
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Penelope</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7969758"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">For some reason the phrase "invincibly ignorant" strikes me as both powerful and really, really funny. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/bag.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Bag">:</div>
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Totally. Makes me think of my little brother.
 

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Current Catholic thinking on whether various non-Catholic religious groups can attain salvation or not is contained in a Vatican document called <i>Dominus Iesus</i>, which was issued in 2000.<br><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus</a><br><br>
As far as the prayer for the conversion of the Jews goes: Because this decision to revive the Tridentine was made almost solely due to the SSPX issue -- a political decision, at its core -- cutting a section out of the Tridentine is just not feasible. It's either all or nothing. The Lefebvrites originally split from the Church because they disproved of any changes at all being made to centuries-old rituals, not just because they think Latin rolls off the tongue nicely. If they see what they consider to be tampering, they will not consider these Tridentine Masses to be authentic, and the Pope's gesture will be in vain. Possibly, it will even make the breach worse.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>suzywan</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7969364"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">From what I understand the official Catholic stance is that all moral paths lead to God, Catholicism is just the best path. Which is a stance most major religions/denoms take, (about their own, not Catholicism <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> )</div>
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That is surprising - concidering how catholic church has treated/still treating indigenous people and their faiths.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><br><br>
I wonder how many priests really know about this?<br><br>
(I wonder if Lutherans and Orthodox nowadays believe this way too?)
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Commentators say the change is unlikely to go far enough to win back the "hardcore" followers of Archbishop Lefebvre.<br><br><br>
But they say the Pope is hoping that if the Church is seen to be meeting the Lefebvreites half way, more and more may choose to return to the Church over time.</td>
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Why the Pope would pander to those people is so beyond me. But hopefully, he will just meet them halfway - bring back the Latin Mass and skip the anti-Semetic bullshit.
 
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