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I cross-posted this on N&CE... not sure where is more appropriate as it's news... yet religious related. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6585247.stm</a><br><br>
"Pope Benedict's plans to revive the Latin Mass, which includes prayers for the conversion of Jews, is causing concern among Catholic and Jewish groups about relations between their faiths.<br><br>
Religious commentators predict that Pope Benedict will issue authorisation for wider use of the Mass - known as the Tridentine Mass - soon.<br><br>
The Mass was celebrated for hundreds of years before being replaced by a liturgy celebrated in local languages, as part of reforms instigated after the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s..."<br><br>
I would hope he would at least leave out the conversion of Jews prayers.... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> I will say as somebody who switched to a religion where a lot of the rituals are performed in a language that I do not understand very well... I think this is a bad move. Even if I did study Latin for a few years. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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I wonder what the thinking is about leaving in the conversion prayers (I have a problem with calling for conversion to Roman Catholicism--or any religion--from any other religion. But if the prayers are calling for just the conversion of Jews, that's even more troubling). I was raised post-Vatican II Roman Catholic, and don't have a problem generally with reviving Latin Mass. I've attended it several times, and it is very beautiful. I think people who want to worship in that way should be permitted and able to do so. People I've talked to who feel strongly about Latin Mass usually say that there is a reverence for the Holy Eucharist in it that was lost in the liturgical reforms of Vatican II.
 

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I've been to the Tridentine mass, I'm glad he is making the decision to expand it's availability as it is it's over an hour drive to the closest one to me and they only have it once a week.<br><br>
I agree with the problems with calls to conversion, guess we will have to wait and see what happens with that.
 

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I'm excited about it. I've never been present at a tridentine mass, but this will make it a lot easier. As for the conversion prayers, well, better to pray for someone's conversion than for someone's destruction. Hey, maybe my life has turned out the way it did because someone prayed for my conversion. I'm so glad!
 

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I happen to believe that trying to change someone's religion through action or thought is an absolutely reprehensible act. Walking up and punching someone in the face would be more moral in my book.<br><br>
I just can't fathom that they are going to start doing this again. I guess I'm holding out hope that they will be using a modified version.
 

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I just noticed that this got moved to spirituality. Wasn't this in News earlier? I guess it's a support thread now.
 

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Yeah, but how does one offer support for a news item? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"><br><br>
Calling for a move to religious studies....
 

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I think it is a good idea. I always thought using the language of the community was wrong, that using Latin in all Masses, across the world, united Catholics the world over, the same way Hebrew used in all services united Jews, and Greek unites the Orthodox.<br><br>
As for the conversion prayer, that is a basic tenet of all of Christiandom.<br><br>
JMHO.
 

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Oh, I actually think that's cool about the latin mass generally! Perhaps they'll remove the part about conversion.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>applejuice</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7976330"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">As for the conversion prayer, that is a basic tenet of all of Christiandom.<br><br>
JMHO.</div>
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I have never heard a conversion prayer at any Mass I've been too. Around Easter, however, there is a prayer for the Jewish people, but it certainly doesn't sound like a conversion prayer to me.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>applejuice</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7976330"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think it is a good idea. I always thought using the language of the community was wrong, that using Latin in all Masses, across the world, united Catholics the world over, the same way Hebrew used in all services united Jews, and Greek unites the Orthodox.<br></div>
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Greek isn't the universal language in Orthodox Churches, only in the Greek Orthodox. Russian Orthodox uses that language ect.
 

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Fr. Z has posted commentary on the BBC's article about the upcoming Motu Proprio here:<br><br><a href="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/04/the-bbc-twists-the-tridentine-issue/" target="_blank">http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/04/the-b...dentine-issue/</a><br><br>
I like the BBC but, frankly, I don't think the secular media does a very good job covering issues related to religion--any religion.<br><br>
I, too, am looking forward to the universal indult. I like the smells and bells and appreciate a more reverent mass. I am also looking forward to the new ICEL translation of the novus ordo.
 

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I only attend the Latin Tridentine Mass. We have prayers after every low Mass. They are 3 Hail Marys, the Hail Holy Queen and the St. Michael Prayer. They are said for unification and protection. I can't recall ever hearing "conversion prayers" for the Jews except for the aforementioned Easter Vigil prayers, but there are also prayers for every one. If any one is interested, I could explain the thinking behind praying for someone's conversion. However, this isn't the right forum, so let me know if you want to discuss this in Religious Studies.<br><br>
Oh, and I think having the Latin Mass more freely available would be a wonderful thing. There was a time when you could attend Mass anywhere in the world and it was the same. Of course, there are the other Rites with their own liturgies which are SO beautiful. But, you could find the Latin Mass anywhere in the world. I think that would be nice.<br><br>
We have prayer books (missals) that are in Latin and English so you can follow along and understand what is being said. You don't have to be a Latin scholar or left in the dark. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Arduinna</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7977848"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Greek isn't the universal language in Orthodox Churches, only in the Greek Orthodox. Russian Orthodox uses that language ect.</div>
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That is what I meant, i.e., "Greek Orthodox", as I work in one.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Irishmommy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7976787"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I have never heard a conversion prayer at any Mass I've been too. Around Easter, however, there is a prayer for the Jewish people, but it certainly doesn't sound like a conversion prayer to me.</div>
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The desire and prayer for all of mankind to be converted to Christiandom is a basic tenet of most Christian Churches. I am old enough to recall the Roman Catholic Trinedine (sp) Latin Mass as a regular Sunday occasion and attended eight years of Roman Catholic School and I recall this as a truth, although Vatican II changed the tone of much of it.<br><br>
I have taken my children to a local Church that has the Latin Mass each Sunday to show them what it was like so that I can share part of my background, knowledge and history with them. The local SF Mission has a Latin Mass on the first and fifth Sundays of the month.
 

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on topic -<br><br>
I was reading something last night that was talking about a return to tradition and how people are really embracing that. including Latin and something called Eucharist Adoration (?) I think it is great.<br><br>
i don't know about the conversion prayer. I guess it depends on exactly what it is saying.<br><br>
and off topic . . .<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>applejuice</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7976330"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Greek unites the Orthodox.</div>
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Greek isn't the universal language in Orthodox Churches, only in the Greek Orthodox. Russian Orthodox uses that language ect.</td>
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">That is what I meant, i.e., "Greek Orthodox", as I work in one.</td>
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Actually even a lot of Greek Orthodox churches are predominately to entirely English. The language of the liturgy is one of the things that widened the gap between the Christian West (Catholics) and the Christian East (Orthodox). Orthodox has always been keen on using the language of the people while traditionally the Catholic church stuck with Latin (In those days . . the West (Rome) spoke Latin and the East (Byzantium) spoke Greek.) I go to a Greek church and depending on the priests that day its anywhere from entirely in Greek to entirely in English. (one of the reasons we don't have a priest is because Father speaks limited English and feels strongly that the Liturgy should be predominately in English and he simply can't do it.) the OCA (originally Russian Orthodox) is almost always English. The reason Greek is so prevalent in the US still is that the Greek Archdiocese is far and away the largest and simply brought their faith with them. The Russian Church was started by missionaries so it was important to them to start churches and translate scripture into the local language - as is the tradition for Orthodox missions work. (the difference of "bringing it with" and "bringing it to" another culture).<br><br>
a good book that goes into all of the reasons for the different languages, and what part language played in the Great Schism is <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FOrthodox-Church-New-Timothy-Ware%2Fdp%2F0140146563%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_sr_1%2F002-4769125-7546420%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1177795979%26sr%3D8-1" target="_blank">The Orthodox Church</a> by Timothy Killistos Ware.<br><br>
All that said I really like it when Liturgy is in Greek.<br><br>
sorry to go off topic. back to your regularly scheduled program . . . . .
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>applejuice</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7979539"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">The desire and prayer for all of mankind to be converted to Christiandom is a basic tenet of most Christian Churches. I am old enough to recall the Roman Catholic Trinedine (sp) Latin Mass as a regular Sunday occasion and attended eight years of Roman Catholic School and I recall this as a truth, although Vatican II changed the tone of much of it.<br><br>
I have taken my children to a local Church that has the Latin Mass each Sunday to show them what it was like so that I can share part of my background, knowledge and history with them. The local SF Mission has a Latin Mass on the first and fifth Sundays of the month.</div>
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13 years of Catholic education here (by nuns mostly), and I have never heard a prayer for people to convert. Though I don't remember Latin mass (I think they stopped before I was born, actually) so that might be the difference.
 

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There's a longer article at the National Catholic reporter: <a href="http://ncrcafe.org/node/1041" target="_blank">http://ncrcafe.org/node/1041</a><br><br>
[...]<br>
Servite Fr. John Pawlikowski, an American, wrote to Kasper on March 29 on behalf of the executive body of the International Council of Christians and Jews. Pawlikowski, an expert in Catholic/Jewish relations at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, told Kasper that although the phrase "perfidious Jews" was lifted from the pre-Vatican II Mass by Pope John XXIII, the older Mass still contains other prayers for Jews, Muslims and other Christians that Pawlikowski called "profoundly demeaning."<br><br>
[...]<br><br>
For example, the Good Friday litrugy contains a prayer "For the conversion of the Jews," which reads: "Let us pray also for the Jews, that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. … Almighty and everlasting God, You do not refuse Your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of Your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness."<br><br>
[...]<br><br>
"The pre-conciliar Roman Missal is inseparably connected to the old lectionary," it states. "In its sequence of about 60 diverse formularies for the celebration of Mass for Sundays and holy days, there is no reading from the Old Testament for each Sunday, except in only three cases … This is blatant Marcionism, which devalues the first part of the two-part Christian Bible -- namely the Bible of Israel -- to insignificance."<br>
[...]
 

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Thanks. I found it in my old Sunday Missal from 1957.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Sol_Solved</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7983037"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">"The pre-conciliar Roman Missal is inseparably connected to the old lectionary," it states. "In its sequence of about 60 diverse formularies for the celebration of Mass for Sundays and holy days, there is no reading from the Old Testament for each Sunday, except in only three cases … This is blatant Marcionism, which devalues the first part of the two-part Christian Bible -- namely the Bible of Israel -- to insignificance."<br>
[...]</div>
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I am just throwing this out there as I am not terribly familiar with the Roman Catholic hours (things like Matins and Vespers) because I am Byzantine Catholic. But, in the Byzantine Liturgy there is no Old Testament reading ever, just a New Testament Reading and the Gospel, that is because our Old Testament readings are in the Vespers which technically are celebrated everyday (most churches don't have the manpower to do this, but it would definitely be done in monasteries and such and the faithful could do it at home). So, it may look like in our Tradition that we ignore the Old Testament when in fact we don't. Again, I am not disputing what that article is saying, but perhaps before Vatican II the Roman Church did the same. I think one could find out easily enough by doing a search.<br><br>
Beth
 
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