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Discussion Starter #1
We had DS's posterior tongue clipped almost 8 weeks ago. I am still experiencing classic tongue-tie symptoms: nipple compression, shallow latch, losing suction, chucking sound, etc. I visited another LC on Wednesday, and she pointed out all the irregularities with DS's tongue. She basically said that it didn't look right. My gut tells me that he needs his tongue clipped again. Maybe it wasn't clipped enough to begin with? Maybe it healed over? I don't know what happened, but I don't believe this is a problem with him "learning how to nurse". The CST LC said she's done all she can for us, so that's not an option right now. DH has been using his figure to encourage DS's tissue to stretch under his tongue, and since he started doing that a few days ago, the nursing pain has decreased a tiny bit. Because of this and based on what I can see of his tongue, I don't think he is physically capable of nursing correctly yet.<br><br>
Has anyone had experience with this? Any advice or stories out there?<br><br>
PLEASE!?!?!?!
 

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I don't have any experience with a clipped tongue re-tying, so to speak, but my DD had her type 4 clipped a month ago. Afterwards, did whoever did have you do stretching exercises under the tongue? I was told that it could kind of heal back tight again-maybe not as tight as before but not normal.<br><br>
I think when i was researching it on here, there were a few mommies who said it didn't work or not completely, so maybe they'll be along shortly to help you out.<br><br>
I'm sorry this has happened....I don't know what would be worse- having to have it done again, or just having him never learn to use his tongue despite having it done. My DD doesn't seem to be getting as better as I had hoped either, but I feel like I haven't been doing what I should have to help her learn- no one told me to do anything.<br><br>
Good luck!
 

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I didn't have DS's posterior tie reclipped (we had to drive 3 hours each way to have it done) but I should have. He never learned to nurse correctly and I never nursed without pain. The person I used did not know that much about posterior ties.<br><br>
I say try again. I have regrets, esp since DS has stopped nursing. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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I had my son's posterior tongue tie clipped when he was 8 weeks old, but he didn't nurse "right" until about 20 weeks. There was significant improvement right away, though. It was just painful/uncomfortable until around the 20w mark. I don't think he had the same symptoms as he had before the clipping, though.<br><br>
How does he nurse with a nipple shield, if you've tried that?
 

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Sometimes the tie is more severe than can be fixed by a "clip." Possibly needed might be a lingual frenectomy done by an ENT specialist. It might be good to go for a consult.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the ideas so far!<br><br>
Nipple shield- He has never accepted one. I've tried several different kinds, but he hates them all. Lately when I've tried them, he's been using them as teethers. Ouch.<br><br>
loraxc- I'm sorry that your nursing experience didn't end up going the way you wanted it to. This tongue-tie thing is harder than I could have ever imagined. Our problem is that we have to fly back to NYC. It's a long trip and lots of money. We've spent so much money on this whole thing, and as much as I don't want to spend anymore, we'll spend as much as we need to for bfing to work. I don't know whether I should keep fighting this battle or start to try to come to terms with bfing just not being possible. I can't deal with this pain too much longer.<br><br>
I feel like I need to go with my mommy intuition, but I'm trying to get a sanity check here too. I'm convinced DS is still tongue-tied. Is it cruel to get his tongue clipped again? What if it doesn't work? Am I being selfish? I want to bf him so badly, but this pain is unbearable. DS LOVES bb, and I can't imagine taking it away from him. Plus, I would have to pump anyway because DS has severe food allergies, and we need to give him breastmilk.<br><br>
This just stinks. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><br><br>
Thanks.
 

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I'm sorry to hear you're still having pain.<br>
We had my son's posterior tie clipped 5 months ago by a dentist in Dayton. Maybe he could do an evaluation for you? He's not too far.<br>
Do a Google search for Dr. Greg Notestine. He does a lot of clipping but his website doesn't even mention it.<br><br><br>
Anyway, my son STILL can't stick out his tongue, but he can nurse without me losing skin. :)<br><br>
I emailed Dr. Palmer a while ago, and he said that sometimes a touch up is needed later. But the important thing is to get your baby nursing because it helps with proper palate formation.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>kayjay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/13509530"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I'm sorry to hear you're still having pain.<br>
We had my son's posterior tie clipped 5 months ago by a dentist in Dayton. Maybe he could do an evaluation for you? He's not too far.<br>
Do a Google search for Dr. Greg Notestine. He does a lot of clipping but his website doesn't even mention it.<br><br><br>
Anyway, my son STILL can't stick out his tongue, but he can nurse without me losing skin. :)<br><br>
I emailed Dr. Palmer a while ago, and he said that sometimes a touch up is needed later. But the important thing is to get your baby nursing because it helps with proper palate formation.</div>
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Thank you sooo much!!! I'll call him today! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Here's one more recommendation. If I were going to give the ENT profession another chance and not have to travel, I'd see Dr. Michael Rudder locally.<br><br>
He was recommended to me by Dr. Ballard a few months back; she said he was the one "Cincinnati ENT (originally from Australia) who truly appreciates the benefits of frenotomy in the breastfeeding dyad."<br><br>
I never saw him because nursing starting going well after the first clip.<br><br>
(I don't have a sig yet but it looks like our little ones were born the same week).
 

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I hope you're able to find someone locally! I also went to NY to have my son's tongue tie clipped, so I'm guessing we saw the same person. For me, it was a 4-hour drive and I have family there, so it wasn't bad. Since tongue tie is hereditary and my husband has a posterior tie, there's a 50-50 chance that this next baby will have it, too. Already planning the trip to NY...though I'd love to find someone local. Last time, I saw three peds and one ENT here and they all said he was fine. NY was my only option.
 

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I do second the nipple shield suggestion--I would not have survived without them.
 

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If it makes you feel any better, I had my son's tongue tie clipped twice. After the first time (at 4 weeks), I still felt like his tongue was pretty restricted. Also, there wasn't really an improvement in his latch, although I knew getting it clipped wasn't necessarily going to be the miracle answer I was looking for. Two weeks later (at 6 weeks) I took him in for a "second opinion", this time with a Pediatric ENT Surgeon, and she agreed that a tiny bit more could be clipped. She clipped 1-2 more milimeters. Although his latch isn't perfect, we're continuing to work on it.<br><br>
Go with your gut. It can't hurt just to get another opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>kayjay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/13510742"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Here's one more recommendation. If I were going to give the ENT profession another chance and not have to travel, I'd see Dr. Michael Rudder locally.<br><br>
He was recommended to me by Dr. Ballard a few months back; she said he was the one "Cincinnati ENT (originally from Australia) who truly appreciates the benefits of frenotomy in the breastfeeding dyad."<br><br>
I never saw him because nursing starting going well after the first clip.<br><br>
(I don't have a sig yet but it looks like our little ones were born the same week).</div>
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Thanks so much!! I just made an appointment with Dr. Rutter. It's next Thursday (april 16th). I sure hope he can help. I'm always worried that even though many ENTs understand classic tongue-tie, most don't seem to know anything about a posterior tongue-tie. Breastfeeding is soooo painful right now. I don't want to quit, I just want it to stop hurting. DS will be a couple days shy of 7 months old. I hope we can figure this out. I'm always so hopeful.
 

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I hope it works out!! I remember all too well that feeling of desperately wanting to BF but not sure it was going to work out in the end. Everyone around me kept telling me to give up, but it was something I wanted so badly! I hope you can have a happy ending and nurse (pain-free) for a long, long time! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Please post back how it goes. I'd be very interested because we may need to "touch up" sometime ourselves.<br>
Fortunately nursing isn't painful now, but not sure about speech.
 

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One option I haven't seen posted yet, have you tried working with an occupational or physical therapist that works with breastfeeding issues? DS's posterior tie was clipped at 5.5 weeks and while there was a small immediate improvement, a couple of weeks later nursing was still a nightmare. The LC I had been working with recommended an OT and now, 3 visits and 4 weeks later he's improved greatly. DS had to be be re-taught how to suck correctly and had to work on building up the muscles that hadn't been used effectively while he was tongue-tied in order to improve though, so the exercises that the OT gave us were what made the difference.<br><br>
My DD had this same issue, although we never figured it out until DS came along. Nursing her was always uncomfortable, but it got steadily better as she got older. She still nurses at 2.5 years, and recently when we did finally figure out what was going on, she improved dramatically and immediately when I asked her to stick her tongue out as far as she could while latching and then "suck like a sippy cup" while nursing. When your DS is old enough to understand, you could try those with him as well.<br><br>
I commend you on making it this far with your DS - don't give up, you can do it!
 

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Good point about seeing an OT.<br><br>
Another thought is you could contact Dr. Hazelbaker in Columbus. <a href="http://lactspeak.com/speakers/AlisonHazelbaker" target="_blank">http://lactspeak.com/speakers/AlisonHazelbaker</a><br><br>
She developed the Hazelbaker assessment tool for Lingual Frenulum Function.<br><br>
Maybe you could see her or she'd have a recommendation.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I wanted to post a quick update. We saw Dr. Rutter last week, and he was super friendly and supportive. However, all that happened at the appointment was that we were referred to the speech/language department for a video swallow study. He told us there are a couple S/L therapists who specialize in infant suck/swallow problems. He said it could take a couple months to notice improvement. The first available appointment is May 12th. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"><br><br>
Now the vent...<br>
I'm really struggling here. I'm just exhausted. DS nurses all the time, and I assume it's because he nurses so poorly. And it really hurts everytime. I'm tired. All along the way I've been told "do ____ and it will improve"... I never thought it would be 7+ months of bfing torture. I don't know what else to do now though. DS will NOT take a bottle, sippy cup, or regular cup, especially from me! But I'm the one who's home with him all day, so how else can I feed him? So I'm stuck in this bfing hell for now, and I just have any optimism left in me to believe that this his nursing will ever get better. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mecry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crying"> All this on top of severe food allergies. I'm on the most restrictive diet ever, and I'm so ready to have my life back.
 

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Oh mama, I'm so sorry you didn't get help immediately! It sounds like you're working SO hard to breastfeed your son. Good for you, you are doing an incredible thing for him! You've been breastfeeding SEVEN MONTHS, and that is AWESOME. So many babies don't get that much breastfeeding, even without the crappy breastfeeding hand you've been dealt. You're a fantastic mama!<br><br>
I'm kind of in a similar situation to you. DD had a type 3 tongue tie, and posterior tongue tie. We got it clipped when she was 2 weeks old, and expected it to help immediately. It didn't help at all!!! Well, it did make breastfeeding a little less painful for me, but it definitely wasn't the magical solution that I was hoping for.<br><br>
I'm lucky to live in NYC, so I have access to tongue tie experts here. I saw Cathy Genna (an IBCLC who's one of the experts on posterior tongue tie) after DD's first frenotomy, to get her advice. She said the DD needed a 2nd clipping. Cathy said it's common for the tongue tissues to kind of pull back after a clipping, which exposes more frenulum that also needs to be clipped.<br><br>
It took me another two weeks to get an appointment for a 2nd clipping. I think I know how you feel, having to wait until May for your appointment. I cried. DD wasn't gaining weight fast enough (still isn't <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">), and she was only two weeks old at the time--so new and fragile! I was terrified that I wouldn't be able to get her enough milk to keep her alive another two weeks. I mean, obviously I wouldn't have let her starve to death, but those were the terrifying hypothetical situations that my hormonal mama brain came up with.<br><br>
We got DD's tongue clipped a 2nd time a few days ago (on her 1 month birthday). And still, it hasn't made any noticeable difference. I'm hoping that as we do the post-frenotomy tongue exercises (Do you have a copy of those? Do you want me to send them to you? They're not just to stretch the tissues, they're to help formerly tongue-tied babies relearn the movements they should have done instinctively with their tongues) her latch will improve. I think we should start supplementing with my pumped breastmilk, but DD can't figure out how to suck anything out of a bottle, and freaks out when we try to use an eye dropper. I think we're going to try a Hazelbaker finger feeder. Have you heard of that? It's like a tube that you put on your finger, and the baby sucks milk out of it as they suck your finger. I'm hoping that it will improve our situation, because I'll be able to do suck training with her while she's getting extra calories.<br><br>
But wait, why didn't that doctor do a second clipping? Isn't that why you went? Would he do one if you asked? The ENT we saw wasn't convinced that DD needed a second clipping, but she did one because we thought it might help. If your intuition thinks it would help, I'd give it another shot.
 

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ah, I'm so sorry it was such a short appointment. At least the doctor was nice about it...it's awful when they're rude.<br><br>
You are to be commended for nursing your son for 7 months. I think my mom only nursed me to 6 months, then put me on cows milk! And I didn't even have any tongue problems. Women just didn't BF in the 70s.<br><br>
My son won't take a bottle now either, so I know how it feels to be the only source of food. While I'm at work he'll eat pumped milk mixed with cereal from a spoon, but no bottle. The straw is showing promise. He seems to be swallowing fine, and I'm thankful for that. His only remaining symptom at this point is that he won't stick out his tongue. He can blow raspberries though, which is weird.<br><br>
It is frustrating when it seems that no one knows what you're talking about with a posterior tie, and even worse when it needs to be clipped a second time. You think, haven't I already done this?<br><br>
I recently read somewhere that pyschologically it's better to have false hope than no hope, so stay hopefull even if the swallow study doesn't pan out. I'm not sure what kinds of solids you can start him on with the allergy issues, but at least he's getting closer to that age.<br><br>
It really sucks that you're in pain. Sometimes DS's latch isn't right and it kind of hurts, and now his teeth are starting to get in the way. But I've noticed if I nurse lying down that it feels a lot better. Not sure why.<br><br>
Let me know if I can offer any other support.
 
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